Talk:American Old West

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[edit] WikiProject Wild West

A WikiProject has been proposed on List of proposed projects to both expand and improve coverage of articles relating to the "Wild West" period. MadMax 01:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The new link is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#American Old West. Chris 04:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk

I am not happy with this language, "...before the coming of the railroads. After the railroads, emigration to the West became much easier; but before the railroads, rule by the gun was the norm,..." Most areas of the West were relatively peaceful with established authority before the coming of the railroad, not "rule of the gun". Conversely certain areas, for example, Arizona and Wyoming were relatively lawless after the coming of the railroad, see Johnson County War. Fred Bauder 12:40, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree, the language is a bit over-wrought and of dubious accuracy. Much of the "Old West" was really rather dull.

dino 17:55, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Considerable poetic license has been taken with a number of the actual events and characters such as Wyatt Earp and Billy the Kid as they have been protrayed in ways which reflect contemporary concerns more than the historical record."

Contemporary concern? Isn't it rather derived from the romanticism of that era?

"Nevertheless, the untamable mystique of the Wild West lives on... A fascination with a simpler world of salt of the Earth values, where men were men and women were damsels, fuels interest in Nashville and the Country Music scene, the rodeo circuits and the Western fashions of the 21st Century. Is it any surprise that Cowboy Action Shooting is one of the fastest growing sports today, combining marksmanship with the theatricality of an historical reenacting of the gunslinging Wild West days? The interest in the West seems eternal: maybe it is just because "a man's got to do what a man's got to do.""

This paragraph seems more like its been written for a magazine than for an enclylopedia.


I don't know who wrote it, but it does sound like a bad in-flight magazine. I edited it, and hopefully it is better.

dino 04:47, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)


I'm curious should the time range of the west be more around 1849 following the California Gold Rush ? With much of the west coast settled by 1860 it could even be argued following the period after the Lewis and Clark Expedition leading to the colonization of Oregon and California. I would suggest a timeline more along the lines of around 1850 to 1890. Maybe a rewording "from 1850 to its official close in 1890 (however the settling of the west continued into the early 1900s)." ? 205.188.116.132 19:40, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The concept of the frontier and of the old west are easily confabulated. I would date the old west from the Texas Revolution in 1836 and subsequent settlement of Texas. I think the days of the Mountain Men and of Bent's Fort and the Santa Fe Trail, which also predates 1849, fit easily into the period. Fred Bauder July 8, 2005 12:56 (UTC)

I agree. I think the Santa Fe Trail and the Battle of the Battle of the Alamo would fit most people's idea of the Old West and the timeline given should include those events. Johntex 23:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I was curious what time period was quoted elsewhere, so I looked at Western (genre), which says: "Westerns, by definition, are set in the American west, almost always in the 19th century, from the antebellum period to the turn of the century..."Johntex 23:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for my late responce. As you can see I left the previous message quite awhile ago. Certainly the "Old West" could be traced back to the Louisianna Purchase. It seems the general timeline might be divided into diffrent "eras" in the phases of western settlement. 64.12.116.71 09:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

ex.

  • Exploration (from the Louis and Clark Expedition and subsequent explorations)
  • Early Immigration (the initial colonization of Oregon, California, Texas, etc.)
  • Pre-Civil War (from the California Gold Rush to the end of the Civil War)
  • Post-Civil War (the end of the civil war through reconstruction and covering much of the romantizized "Old West")
  • Final Years (the frontiers decline and eventual closing in 1890)
  • Present Day (covering years following the "official" closing of the frontier to the present day)

[edit] History vs Fiction

The title of the article is American Old West and the first sentence of the article says "The Western United States has played a significant role in history and fiction." However, the article as it stands is mostly about history. Even the 'actual events and characters' section mentions "history and folklore". Should we:

(a) Strive for more like a 50/50 balance
(b) Take out the mention of history and focus on mythology, symbolism, and folklore
(c) Continue on with no major change in the slant of the article?

I would be in favor of (a) with the provision I think the article will eventually get too big and require some sort of splitting. If we go with (b), we might consider renaming the article. Johntex 23:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I want to say we should do A. But in my mind, we should have a mention of how the present idea of the west was formed because of movies and media sources like Buffalo Bill's Wild West show. I have to find some old papers and sources, but one popular myth that came out of that show was that the myth that all indians wore feathers. In realality, a small group of indians, which happened to be working for Buffalo Bill wore them. --ZeWrestler Talk 12:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't mind the fiction .... but it is now 75% fiction - 25% non-fiction. A time line and other historical facts should be put in to boost parity. Sincerely, JDR


[edit] Railroads

The info on the railraods @ the close of the west is lacking. I'll try to put it in some times if someone doesn't beat me to it. JDR 20:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article historical reference

The article was mostly compose of other wikipedia articles. Is there a problem with that? .... go look @ the wlnk article here @ wikipedia. JDR 22:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I don't believe there is such a thing as the "Frontier Strip" but the Old West definitely also included the states west of the states so identified. Is it okay to go ahead and try to fix things like that or does a collaboration need some kind of vote. Also, IMHO, this article should be mainly historical with most of the fiction referred to Western fiction. HombreX 07:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Early explorers and trappers: Section Notes

The "Early explorers and trappers" section needs to be expanded to include mentions of the expeditions of General William Henry Ashley and his partner, Major Andrew Henry. They were also involved in the fur trade/fur business. One of the men already mentioned in that section, Mike Fink (also a fur trapper), supposedly attended one or more of Ashley's expeditions and died on one of them. That would be a good way to tie them together.

One good reference I have found so far is [1]

--Naha|(talk) 19:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

It would be useful to add a map showing the historic area that was considered 'The West', prior and during the period of settlement. The map at Western United States shows the current West, but a similar one showing the 'Old West' would be of interest to non-American readers. --MichaelMaggs 21:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kurosawa

"It is a common misconception that Akira Kurosawa's film Yojimbo was influenced by certain spaghetti westerns, though quite the reverse is true."

He may not have been influenced by spaghetti westerns, but he definitely was influenced by westerns: he cites John Ford as his primary inspiration. 71.232.96.127 01:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Not encyclopedic at all

As an example:

"While James did harass railroad and corporate executives who unjustly seized private land or squashed small business for the railways and big business, modern biographers tend to stress that he did so for personal gain; forgetting that he and individuals like him were made outlaws by acts of Congress, Reconstruction, and powerful business interests."

Sorry, this last clause is just over the top with non-NPOV. The entire article looks like it was written by somebody trying desperately to inexplicably restore the romanticized version of Western American history. This really needs to be completely re-written by somebody without an agenda.

[edit] Name

Was there a French Old West or something? None of the interlanguage links even use "American" in the title of their articles, and that usage certainly isn't popular. Is the term needed? Zeality 04:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Since Old West redirects to American Old West, I don't think the "American" needs to be in there. 138.69.160.1 14:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence in intro

Though the Old West is often seen as being unusually violent, some argue that the Old West was "a far more civilized, more peaceful and safer place than American society today."

Any objections to removing this sentence? While that statement is sourced, I do not see any of its ideas built upon in the body of the article. Either the concept needs to be developed in the article in a non-trivial way, or the sentence should be removed. --Bletch 11:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this sentence. --Bletch 13:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old West

Even though most Americans may associate the term "Old West" with the post-civil war period, I suggest that a more coherent historical tale could be told by beginning it with the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 or earlier, and it probably should be earlier. There was really ONE frontier movement with different phases over more than a century, after all. I got to this article through other articles using the term "Old West" to refer to the earlier trans-Allegheny migrations and was disappointed to find that it begins with "cowboys and Indians." Much of the info presented here could be better told in an article titled "Wild West" or something similar. As it is, this article is not consistent with usage of the term "Old West" in historical literature, or in other Wikipedia articles. Amity150 00:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Then make a 'disambig' page on the Old West page. J. D. Redding 12:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification requested

Most often the term refers to the late 19th century, between the American Civil War and the 1890 closing of the frontier.

I've been racking my brains, but I can't figure out what "closing of the frontier" might mean. For the benefit of people like me, could anyone explain? (In the article, I mean, not here!) Matt 00:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Proposal to improve article

If no one objects, I am going to make a major revision of this article. I will concentrate on just history 1800-1900, with reliable citations, and remove cultural influences which better belong in article Western (genre), which also needs work but has a good start and good links to detailed articles. Scotwriter 00:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)