Talk:American History X

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Contents

[edit] Synopsis

The synopsis seems to be confusing, longer than necessary and in a number of places incorrect. I'm going to try and tidy it up and clarify it a little, bit by bit. I'll probly make mistakes, I'm not a particularly prolific editor and the way the film jumps around doesn't make a simple plot easy. --Jasonisme 22:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

How about we remove basically all the detailed quotes? That's what wikiquote is for, i.e. we don't need to get into the details about Dennis Vineyard's "affirmative blaction" speech when I copied it over there.

Pretty good condensation, although it's conversely a little too lean (doesn't even mention that Danny had to write a paper on the events, that Dr. Sweeney intervened to help Derek's parole, or that the night Derek murdered the carjackers was the same day Doris kicked him out of the house for fighting with Murray a few hours before, all pretty significant events.) I'd almost lean towards including a characters section too...

[edit] Cleanup

Does this still need cleanup? Rd232 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Unless you can think of something that is missing, no.

How did Edward Norton re-edit the film against Tony Kaye's permission? He was just an actor! Did he pull important strings with the producers or something? --I am not good at running 06:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


From what I understand, it was more of an issue between Tony Kaye's artistic vision and what the producers wanted the film to be. --68.45.21.204 04:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The controversy section is unfortunately worded, and the opinions expressed about editing practices have no basis in reality.Trst 15:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong part in synopsis?

"Danny continually complains that his new founded neo-Nazi ways have nothing to do with his big brother Danny, but Dr. Sweeney rebukes him and sends him on his way"

Should Danny be replaced with Derek in one of those places? I haven't seen the movie; I was reading the article to see if it was worth watching, but this part seemed contradictory- how is Danny's older brother named Danny? -VetteDude 19:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hah good one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.59.251 (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Minor Correction

The tattooed swastika was on Derek's left pectoral, not right. Correcting... Screen capture: http://picnic.ciao.com/fr/162808.jpg

66.93.100.117 22:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC) -PR

[edit] Alternative Ending

"An original scripted, but unfilmed, ending consisted of Derek shaving his head and reverting back to his neo-Nazi skinhead ways after the death of his brother."

Is it possible that this triva bit isn´t entirly true? I could swear that I´ve seen the movie with this ending. FreddyE 13:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've just removed reference to this in the "Deleted scenes" section for the following reasons. Firstly no such scene was ever filmed, so it couldn't be considered deleted in the first place. Secondly no such scene is in the linked shooting script. Thirdly in the final scene Danny clearly says "what have I done", meaning that his first instinct isn't that the path away from racism should now be reversed, but that he sees the responsibility for what happening to his brother as being a consequence of the path that Danny followed Derek down. Fourthly it doesn't seem that anyone involved in the making of the film has ever made reference to any such scene. Lastly it's just un-encyclopaedic to make reference to unsubstantiated rumours. I may have heard a rumour from some guy I knew once that that in deleted scene from the Empire Strikes Back Darth Vader was to reveal himself as Luke's mother, replete with hair curlers underneath her helmet, but I shouldn't try and include that nugget in an encyclopaedia. JMWhite 02:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

"Edward Norton's penis is exposed twice in the film: First at the start of the film, when he is having sex with his girlfriend (Balk) and again when he is in the prison showers, as Derek Vineyard is raped."

Is this really an item worthy of being on the Trivia list? I mean, what the hell is the point of it being here? Not only is it something that the viewer can notice easily themself, it really serves no significance whatsover. We don't see trivia about a woman's breasts being displayed however many times for other films, so this is really out of place. Conquerer 03:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I'm removing it. Kevin Hughes 21:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone's added to the trivia the rumour of the deleted scene/alternative ending I mentioned above. I'm removing it unless someone can cite a reputable reference showing this to be based in fact. As far as i can tell it's something bandied about by racist extremists without any evidence. An internet search yealds only mentions of this possibility on racist message boards - many of whom then reference wikipedia as proof. It has no place here JMWhite 16:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline of the Film

I replaced the line that says that this film tells the story of Derek Vinyard some time after the LA Race Riots, because it's not entirely true. The scene in which the riots are mentioned seems to suggest that they had happened a relatively short time before that discussion; the fact that Derek's mom was dating (and combined with Danny's narrative) suggests that it was a good deal of time after the death of Derek's father (indicated by the radical change in appearance before and after his father's death, and the fact that he didn't begin his neo-naziism untl after his father's death). So, some of the scenes in the movie take place before the race riots. -Mance 10:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Cadillac-----------

Are you guys sure the green cadillac is the car the car jackers drove. It looked to me like the carjackers had a ford falcon or something, also those cadillacs have square headlights, while the jackers cars headlights are clearly round.

[edit] Fishy article

I'm unsure about some of the comments in the synopsis. I think some of them are unecessary. 'poor black kid from the ghetto', 'both white cops...smiles', etc. Needs to be reworked, or maybe I'm just reading a shitty revert. Panda

[edit] Lawsuit

So what happened with the lawsuit? Nil Einne 18:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot

I tagged the plot because it is overly long. It weighs in at 1,766 words, whereas the guidelines suggest no more than 900 words.--Supernumerary 22:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

there would never be a lawsuit nor could there be a lawsuit it's called freedom you have the right to put out whatever you feel needs to be put out i don't think this film is trying to be slanderous to anyone and you idiots should just drop the subject of how you hate it and how much you disagree with the message as you call it this is reality people are like this get over it least you could do is stop complaining

[edit] Deleted Scenes

I don't think the description of the third deleted scene is very accurate. The mother hardly whisks her kid away as soon as Derek begins to speak. Admittedly she seems a little nervous of him but I disagree with the wording - anyone else think it needs altering? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.205.139.234 (talk) 16:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Curb scene

When, in the movie, did Norton ever tell the guy to bite the curb? Please, somebody, let me know the exact time and scene. You can't, because he never said it. I'm changing the phrasing.

He tells him to "Bite the curb" it is in fact part of the movie, so this was deleted without merit. CharlieP216 16:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe the wording was, 'Put your mouth on the curb' but it shows the guy opening his mouth and putting his teeth on the curb in a biting position.


I belive it was "Put your lip on the curve" Paulchwd


I just watched the movie, still have the window up, and after watching the scene, the exact quote is, "Put your fucking mouth on the curb. PUT IT ON THE CURB RIGHT NOW!" About 54 minutes into the movie. Hakola 06:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shooting Scene

Hey has anybody found any explanations on the final scene where Danny gets shot? I just think this is a significant scene from the movie so I was just wondering the purpose of it, and I think it would contribute very much to the article. Near the end of the movie you see Danny starting to change his ways and understand the hypocrisy and cons of the neo-nazi doctrine. And then he gets murdered by a black schoolmate simply because he blew smoke in his face. So what is this scene suppose to tell audiences? From what it seems to me it confirms the very prejudices that Danny had in the first place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.94.55.91 (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

I believe the correct term is irony. Danny finally decides to not follow in his older brother's footsteps of breeding hatred and racism, which will eventually result in his demise. The irony? The very next day, the same day he decides to watch the sun rise for the first time in his life, his is extinguished by that very same thing. It's purpose was to drive home the point that racism and hatred are like the festering pocket of bacteria in the open wound of society. It itches, you scratch, and the wound grows.--Dannery4 05:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)dannery4

sigh* before anybody tries to go off on me calling me a racist/neo-nazi, keep in mind I'm stating this explantion not from my personal beliefs but from the context of the movie. I'm just adding this message here cause I know how some people can get somebody says something that isn't 100% anti-racist or politically correct.

i dont think you will be deemed as a racist for your question. i believe the scene was pivotal for two reasons: 1) it left us wondering if derek's reformation was in vain (would he revert), and 2) it showed that, like gang mentality, once you are out does not equate to a sense of safety. in the original treatment, derek re-shaves his head after this scene. The undertow 08:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted scenes

"After they eat, a black gang sneaks upon them and they attack them." Who is attacking whom? This sentence is ambiguous. Please clarify. --KnightMove 08:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


the black gang attacked cameron and seth

[edit] Trivia

  • The word "fuck" is spoken 205 times throughout the film.[1]
  • The quote Danny says at the end of the film is from Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address in 1861.
  • Edward Norton packed on 30 pounds (14 kilograms) of muscle for the role[citation needed].
  • Both Avery Brooks (Dr. Sweeny) and Jennifer Lien (Davina) starred on Star Trek series at the same time. (Brooks on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine from 1993 until 1999 as Captain Benjamin Sisko and Lien on Star Trek: Voyager from 1995 until 1997 as Kes.)
  • A white power song is heard that is set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"; the song describes a massacre of non-whites and Jews, referring to it as "the tramplin' at the Zoo". It is an actual song by Johnny Rebel.
  • The shirt worn by Seth Ryan on the basketball court with the numbers "88" on the back is actually a reference to "HH" or "Heil Hitler," "H" being the 8th letter of the alphabet. In a later scene he wears a Skrewdriver T-shirt. The number is also a reference to the 88 Precepts, the 88 rules of conduct by which neo-Nazis live.
  • In the flashback where Norton's character starts learning racist ways from his father, he mentions that the book Native Son by Richard Wright was assigned in class by Dr. Sweeney. The 1940's book deals with how racial inequality leads to violence from the perspective of a poor 20-year old black man. Interestingly, both Native Son and its author were mentioned by Avery Brooks' character of Benjamin Sisko in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Far Beyond the Stars".
  • The overweight neo-Nazi character Seth is portrayed by Ethan Suplee. Suplee would later go on to play the happy-go-lucky race-blind football player Louie Lastik in the film Remember the Titans, which also focuses on racial tensions.
  • The pistol Derek uses in the beginning of the film to shoot the burgulars is part of the Ruger "P" series pistols and should carry a maximum of fifteen rounds with a high capacity magazine, and ten without, Derek fires 26 rounds without reloading throughout the sequence.

(saved here for contingent reconstruction in the article)

--KnightMove 14:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in May 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
  • Copyeditor(s): Balloonguy 21:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Take note!

I've added the forum template so please take notice. Wikipedia is not a forum. Ashnard Talk 19:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song (sung by Seth)

Everyone probably knows the song from this movie if they've seen it, the "My eyes have seen the glory of..." thing, which was a remake of The Battle Hymn of the Republic (remade by Johnny Rebel). Should this be mentioned at all? Zchris87v 05:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gone in the Morning

The line in the synopsis which occasioned my ire was:

...his mother gave him one day to pack his things and move out...

Well, here I am watching the flick and the dialog does not back up that line in any way. The verbatim exchange is:

DORIS: I want you out of this house.
DEREK: That's fine, I'll be gone in the morning.

Meanwhile, I broke the paragraph between the two critical scenes of dinner and shooting -- amazing that it originally tried to cram both into a single sentence.

Call it original research if you like but the former revision is just plain incorrect. — Xiong熊talk* 15:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Races"

Why is the word races put in scare quotes ("races") in the plot summary? Last I looked this isn't the standard format for this word in print media. I'll leave it for a few days to see if anyone wants to explain it (please, not with POV arguments about race etc., this is a matter of English print usage), and then I'll erase the quotation marks. Morgaledh 03:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations for use

October 2007 interview with Tony Kaye at The Onion AV Club ("I'm very proud of a lot of American History X, and feel very embarrassed about my egotistical behavior.") - Best regards, Steve T • C 10:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The White Man Marches on"

Several people here state that this song is by Johnny Rebel, but it's not. It's not an actual song from an artist. It was made only for the movie, and it was made to sound like Johnny Rebel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.129.84.165 (talk) 12:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dating the story

the plot description begins by identifying the timing as "late early 1990s." which is it? 76.67.121.61 (talk) 05:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)callmenaomi

[edit] This page is NOT a dicussion forum for the movie

This page is for discussing ways in which the article can be improved. It is _not_ a place to discuss the movie itself.Matt Gerber (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "Other notes" section

The "Other notes" section was pure speculation, as mentioned by the author in the passage itself. Unless there is a source for the information, it should be kept out of the article. Matt Gerber (talk) 11:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] D.O.C. (Disciples of Christ)?

I just watched a censored version on FX (the channel). They never said what D.O.C. stood for. Do they say what it is in the uncensored version? Is it possible we could clarify wherever they said it in the article? Thanks! Paladin Hammer (talk) 02:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I believe it stands for Department of Corrections Matt Gerber (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)