Talk:American Chess Association

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[edit] Explanation of reversion on July 10, 2007

I have reverted this edit by Amchess.

  • There has been no citations or documentation provided that the ACA incorporated in Nevada is a continuation of the 1800's ACA, as the edit clearly states.
  • The edit appears to be by a interested party, given that the edit summary indicated that it was authorized by the recently incorporated ACA.
  • There needs to be places to discuss both the old ACA and the new ACA -- -- this article should be where an article about the old ACA can be developed.

-- ArglebargleIV 17:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does anyone know when it closed its doors?

All indications that I have been able to find online are that it was during the 1860s, but I haven't been able to get any better than that, and all of the mentions are offhand. I doubt that the precise information exists online, myself. I was going to write to a a couple of chess historians, such as Edward Winter, to ask if they know of any printed research material that I could check that could be used as a reference. -- ArglebargleIV 13:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I was doing some searching on google and found this. Its a copy of a magazine called The Globe published in 1876. There's two mentions of the organization, one on page 174 and one on page 127. Guess it seems like this organization might have been around a while, or else was a colloquial name for a similar organization. Mateinsixtynine 12:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
That Google Books PDF URL doesnt work for me, but the standard URL to the same book works fine. I've also found Chess Player's Chronicle talking of ACA; the google image of the front cover is not clear, but it appears to be 1879. John Vandenberg 21:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The best source of American Chess Association historical info is right from the ACA's own library. But apparently you continue to allow convicted felons such as Sam Sloan to influence into not allowing an orderly input of historical info onto these pages so that all information of historical significance can be added. As mentioned right above, our organization was not defunct due to the Civil War but the 1876 Globe itself reports J. A Congdon as President of the American Chess Association in 1876 with James Roberts as Secretary and soliciting funds to attempt to put on a major 1876 centenniel event. Just because you have been on the Board of Directors of a major competitor, USCF, should not allow one to allow the obvious vandalism we have here. Anyone can order past reprints of back issues from ACA. You are preventing the legitimate addition of sourced materials from the organization being added. The fact that some do not want to recognize the Fischer-Spassky 1992 match as it was promoted, as "The World Chess Championship" does not change the fact that the match historically took place, was promoted, had a 5 million purse, larger than anything the competitor, FIDE, the International Chess Federation (not the legitimately incorporated World Chess Federation, Inc.) has put on.

The 1876 references were of the same organization, not some colloquial name for a similar organization.

By allowing a vandalized page you ignore records from 1890s and from the 1910s etc through present day of this organization.

By doing what you are doing you are violating constitutional free speech and aiding a competitor organization in supressing historical truth. Sam Sloan has always had a history of putting out inaccurate info. The fact remains, that just like in the case of the Nevada State Chess Association, incorporations are done to gain State protection so that legitimate elections are run and procedures like Robert's Rules of Order are followed rather than having tinhorn dictators thwart democracy. So the USCF now has Nevada Chess as its puppet organization. The result of the case with USCF was that the Nevada State Chess Association got what it wanted, fair CPA audited elections and it moved over to ACA by the vote of its membership, and retention of its name, while the USCF's puppet organization now goes under the name Nevada Chess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amchess (talk • contribs) 14:54, 31 July 2007

Sorry, but the best source of information is published sources that can be verified. Sam has no more influence here than you, and rants by either you or Sam are not useful. However you are both welcome to provide verifiable information that can be used to expand the record of this organisation. I would love to see you upload any relevant material that is out of copyright onto Wikisouce, or you can scan them and contact me in order to send me the images and I will upload them to Wikisource. Until such time as a clear continuous history of the organisation from 1857 to the current organisation can be verified, we have no option but to treat them as two organisations with the same name. John Vandenberg 15:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
According to American Chess Monthly, Vol XX, Number 10, the Globe's info is verified as it confirms that the American Chess Association organized indeed the international chess tournament of August 1876 (sometimes called the 4th American Chess Congress) It states the event was organized by American Chess Association President Brig Gen James Adams Congdon of Philadelphia. It also states that this J.A. Congdon was noted as the author of Congdon's Cavalry Compendium.
Further American Chess Association's American Chess Monthly Vol XXIV, number 3 notes this same Congdon as playing in what is commonly referred to as the 1880 5th American Chess Congress.So much for your spurious claims of being defunct in the 70's, either.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Amchess (talk • contribs) 10:33, 1 August 2007
Amchess, could you provide the precise citation details of the "American Chess Monthly, Vol XX, Number 10" you are referring to above: we need the periodical name as it appears on the cover (and names of the editors to be sure), the year, the title and author of the article, the page number, and an exact quote would be marvellous, even if it is only brief (one or two sentences that cover the salient points). Ideally we would like to see an exact quote that mentions a "American Chess Association". If you have a scanner, I would love to see an image of the article you mention. John Vandenberg 14:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Sufficient evidence has been provided that the sentence "It is believed that the ACA was defunct by the 1870's" should be marked as {{disputed}} or removed until an accurate disestablishment date can be determined. John Vandenberg 10:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 14:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Chess Association

Hi. On what grounds do you believe this article to be nonsense? It's not apparently nonsense from the text. --Dweller 11:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I know of no evidence that an organization called the "American Chess Association" ever existed, even in 1857. There was a tournament won by Paul Morphy in New York in 1857, with Louis Paulsen second, which was the only tournament Morphy ever played in.

The problem is that Stan Vaughan has a long history of forming organizations with the same identical name as existing organizations and then claiming to BE that organization. The USCF won a court case against Vaughan in 2000 and got a court injunction prohibiting him from doing this.

That is the reason that there has been no activity since 2000.

His claims are patent nonsense. For example he claims 71,000 members. However, he just "declared" all USCF members to be members of his organization, even though they never joined or even heard of his organization.

Also, amchess is the email address for Stan Vaughan. He is basically posting his own Wikipedia page which is against the rules.

He claims affiliation with the "World Chess Federation". However, that is his own World Chess Federation incorporated in Nevada, not the Real World Chess Federation, better known as FIDE, with headquarters in Switzerland.

Vaughan has been doing this sort of thing for more than 20 years. Before doing it in Nevada he did it in South Carolina and Oklahoma and one or two other states. He will keep doing this as it his major scam. He always catches a few people who send him money, confusing him with the real organization, the USCF. Sam Sloan 14:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

  • The definition of nonsense for speedy deletion is not "This is wrong" but "this is gobbledygook" or, in some cases, "this is obviously made up and wrong". Vaughan's apparent assertions may be wrong (and in my opinion, are wrong), but they're not speedily deletable.
  • There are many online references to an "American Chess Association" founded in October of 1857, but better sources are needed to definitely confirm this, as well as the date of dissolution. I'm fairly certain there was an ACA back then, we just need better sourcing, and I don't think the article should be deleted. -- ArglebargleIV 16:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

See what I mean. He is going to keep doing this. Forget about the Wikipedia Rules. Court injunctions mean nothing to this man. This is a problem chess organizers have had for more than 20 years. The only permanent solution is to delete this page and salt the earth. Sam Sloan 01:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This organization is not notable and this page should be deleted. Sam Sloan 23:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The original organization, which this article should be about, had some original historical notability. If you feel that Vaughan's ACA isn't notable enough to have an article, maybe that discussion should be at American Chess Association (Nevada). -- ArglebargleIV 11:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The new argument by Amchess (see this edit summary) is that, since he claims that he can provide copies of old issues (1800's?) of the American Chess Monthly, therefore his ACA is the same as the ACA founded in 1861. At least, I think that is what he is trying to say, I'm not absolutely sure. I don't think that follows, to say the least. -- ArglebargleIV 01:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

All arguments aside, Amchess's edits are not constructive and are primarily COI. I have added this article to the COI noticeboard; see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#American Chess Association. John Vandenberg 02:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What the article should be

I've tried to combine user:Amchess's edits with the information about the historical ACA. in response, Amchess once again replaced the article with a (largely) unsourced plug for his ACA. (I say largely unsourced -- nothing about the modern ACA is sourced, only a couple of historical facts about the original ACA.) Since there is no evidence presented besides Amchess's assertion that the modern ACA has any relationship other then sharing a name with the historical ACA, I feel that the latest version of the artice that I have put together is a good start towards explaing both organizations.

Furthermore, throwing around charges of vandalism is not appreciated, to say the least. Please stop. -- ArglebargleIV 22:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as long as user:Amchess aka Stan Vaughan insists on pushing his organization here, this article will be crap. This article could be decent, especially in tracing history of chess and chess organizations in the US. I will give credit though, the mention of the magazine being published until 1890s could be useful if we can find more information to back up the dates (latest mention I could find was 1876). Nevertheless, with a 100 year gap between the original and the new organization, it is extremely unlikely they are related. I think the two organizations should be kept separate. Don't worry about the charges of vandalism, all of Stan's edits claim vandalism. :) Mateinsixtynine 01:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The best way forward is to continue to expand the article about the historical ACA and reject any unsourced claims that link the two. I have warned Amchess that the recent contributions amount to vandalism and that there editing this article is not advised due to WP:COI. If the unconstructive edits continue, we can take the matter to WP:COIN/WP:RFC/U/etc. John Vandenberg 22:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I continue to maintain that the only way to deal with this situation is kill this article and salt the earth.

What you Wikipedians fail to understand is that Stan Vaughan has been doing this for twenty years, incorporating an organization with the same name as an existing organization and then claiming that his organization IS that other organization.

He will never quit as this is his major scam. Sam Sloan 03:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Killing this article because there is a content dispute is a terrible idea; akin to shutting down Wikipedia as a nice idea that was "too hard". If this dispute has been going on for 20 years, it is all the more important that Wikipedia provides accurate information on the subject. Take a look at the Nevada ACA article and you will see that we Wikipedians are aware that it is a Nevada corp that was relatively recently registered. The facts haven't escaped us, but there are limited facts available in reliable sources. Sam, do you know of any newspaper or magazine/journal coverage of this dispute? John Vandenberg 22:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There have been no newspaper or magazine articles about this but there have been thousands of newsgroup postings about this. If you have a few weeks to kill, you can find them by going to http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.chess.politics/topics and searching for anything involving Stan Vaughan or Tom Klem. (Klem died in 2006). The USCF Policy Board headed by Denis Barry conducted a hearing on this issue in San Francisco in 1994 and in a lengthy opinion ruled against Klem and Vaughan. Klem and Vaughan refused to accept these decisions and there were more hearings in Las Vegas in 1996 involving Hanon Russell, a lawyer for the USCF who now owns the concession rights for USCF books and equipment. In 1999, the case was in court again when FIDE held the World Chess Championship in Las Vegas won by Alexander Khalifman and Vaughan brought suit to block the event from being held claiming that he owned the rights to hold the World Chess Championship. Vaughan lost and the USCF got a court injunction against him in Clark County, Nevada Superior Court against claiming any affiliation with the USCF.
It is possible that this 1999 injunction has expired and that may explain why Vaughan is starting the whole controversy again.
Please note that when Vaughan writes about the "World Chess Federation Inc." in the article, he is referring to his own "World Chess Federation" recently incorporated in Nevada, not the real World Chess Federation better known as FIDE headquartered in Switzerland.
Meanwhile the entire world of chess is watching to see what you Wikipedians will do about this because we chess players have never been able to solve this problem. Sam Sloan 23:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
We can't solve your problem, nor would (or should) Wikipedia try to solve your problem. WP is here to document, not fix. -- ArglebargleIV 23:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Sam, as ArglebargleIV has said, we are limited to what has already been brought to light by reliable and/or authoritative sources, and that usually excludes newsgroups. I am surprised that this dispute hasnt been covered in any Chess related journals; to end this, the USCF needs to get some real historians and journalists involved. Anyway, USCF documents and court rulings may be useful. Are the USCF opinions you mentioned published, and accessible? Do you know what the case was called, or some other means of finding the relevant open court documents? John Vandenberg 03:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
The Real Nevada Chess Association, as opposed to the Stan Vaughan version "Nevada Chess, Inc.", had a website where the court injunction against Stan Vaughan was publicly posted. The website was taken down after several years but I might be able to find a copy of the injunction after a search. What Stan Vaughan typically does is he incorporates under exactly the same name as a well known and long established organization. He also incorporated the "Nevada Libertarian Party Inc." The "World Chess Federation Inc.", the "Nevada Chess, Inc." and the "American Chess Association, Inc." and several others are all Stan Vaughan organizations with no real membership or operations. Sam Sloan 09:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is one 1998 court order in the Stan Vaughan vs. USCF litigation. This injunction basically orders Stan Vaughan to stop saying that he is the recognized affiliate of the USCF and stop saying that his tournaments are USCF rated. http://www.samsloan.com/uscfstan.htm There were subsequent orders because when FIDE held the World Championship in Las Vegas in 1999 Vaughan tried to block the event from taking place claiming that he owned the World Chess Federation Inc. and therefore FIDE did not have the right to hold the World Chess Championship. Sam Sloan 20:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulletin of the American Chess Association

In the journal article "Robert A. Peddie (July—December 1891). "Contribution to a Bibliography of Chess Periodicals". Notes and Queries Seventh Series - Volume Twelfth: p.143. " is the following:

"Bulletin of the American Chess Association, 1858, 8vo. Allen"

OCLC 149667386 lists this serials publishing details as "New york, 1858-", and only indicates that Koninklijke Bibliotheek holds it; a search (in en) indicates they have only issue 1. John Vandenberg 03:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Chess Monthly

In amoungst the recent edit warring, there has been a claim that an "American Chess Monthly" has been in existance since The Chess Monthly in 1857. Confusion regarding the naming is appears intentional. There have been a few periodicals that have used the name Chess Monthly, and it appears obvious that none have been continuously published over this period. If anyone has access to any of the issues before 1923, it would be a good idea to upload them onto Wikisource, especially "The Last of a Veteran Chess Player" (I have added s:Maelzel's Chess-Player). John Vandenberg 15:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrated London News article, 1857

The article states that $5000 was offered by the ACA, with a ref for "Illustrated London News" that indicates "verification needed". The "verification needed" can be removed, and the following ref can be added as a copy of the Illustrated London News article appears in the book:

Frederick Milnes Edge (1859). The Exploits and Triumphs, in Europe, of Paul Morphy. D. Appleton & Company, p.16. 

{{editprotected}} I think it would be a good idea to make this change while the article is protected as this ref was provided by Amchess. John Vandenberg 21:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 13:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Chess Registry

In this book published in 1969 by the USCF, a "National Chess Registry" is mentioned:

NATIONAL CHESS REGISTRY, American Chess Association, PO Box 33, Menlo Park, CA 94025, American Chess Association, quarterly, $2.

I cant find any other mention of this registry, on google scholar, books, news archive, and CA business name searches don't appear to be able to be done online[1]. John Vandenberg 16:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This was a list of chess clubs (well, technically "USCF affiliates") in a bound volume of Chess Life. I don't think it was ever repeated. Very few chess clubs have any sort of business registry, and tracking down one from 1969 would be extremely difficult. You'd have to find copies of the then state magazine, the California Chess Reporter, and hope to get lucky. The chances of this being related to the 1857 organization or the later Stan Vaughan one are near zero. Eddore 07:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] misconceptions

There are a few misconceptions on this page, that is, some things aren't exactly as they are portrayed.

"On November 11, 1857, Paul Morphy, who had defeated Louis Paulsen in the tournament, was presented with a silver service at the prize giving by Colonel Charles D. Mead,[citation needed] President of the ACA.[5]"

First, Morphy didn't receive the silver salver for defeating Paulsen (whether that's what's intended or not, by mentioning Paulsen's name, it's implied). Morphy accepted the silver tray as his prize for winning the tournament, period. The slaver and goblets repaced the intended monetary prize ($300) because a monetary prize was distasteful to Morphy. The inscription on the tray reads:

This Service of Plate

is presented to

PAUL MORPHY

The Victor in the Grand Tournament

at the First Congress

of the

American National Chess Association

New York, 1857


see http://sbchess.sinfree.net/note9.html for a detailed photograph, if that will satisfy the citation folks.

While the 1st American Congress Book, page 123, does indicate that a national association should be established (Oct. 10, 1957) and establishes the name of the association as the American Chess Association, nowhere in the book does it say that the association was actually established (though it probably was). That whole issue seems rather unclear.

Footnote [5] cites Buck mentioning Mead as the president of the ACA. But the person who formulated the above sentence confused 1857 with 1859. Buck mentions Mead in connection with Morphy's return from Europe (1859). The silver salver was presented in 1857. So, even if Buck were right that Mead was the president of the ACA (and Buck's accuracy is very, very questionable) it doesn't mean he was president of the ACA in 1857. --Batgirl 04:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)