Talk:American Boy Scouts

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Contents 1 Rename 2 U.S. Junior Military Forces 3 New York Supreme Court 4 Thanks for the rewrite! 5 US Boy Scouts 6 Refs 7 British Boy Scouts 8 More USBS information

[edit] Rename

It appears that the actual name of this group was either "The American Boy Scout" or "American Boy Scout". See [1], [2], [3] and [4]. I can't figure out if "The" is properly part of the name. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the official name of the organization may have been "American Boy Scout" then later "United States Boy Scout" but they were probably referred to by mistake quite often as the "American Boy Scouts" and the "United States Boy Scouts". I'm not sure whether "the" was officially part of their names or not. --Jagz 01:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to worry about the "The". Some sources show it as singular, others as plural. Here is an American Boy Scout rifle: [5] We might just stick this in as a footnote. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I sent an email the the World of Scouting Museum in Valley Forge that has a copy of the ABS Handbook from 1910[6] and they said that the name was the "American Boy Scouts". They also said that the name was later changed to USBS “after they got in trouble using the word American Boy Scouts b/c it was confusing with the BSA". I have confirmed that the Handbook they have is actually from ABS and not BSA. That Handbook should be able to illuminate whether ABS was intended from the beginning as a paramilitary organization (before Hearst quit). --Jagz 21:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. Junior Military Forces

How long was the U.S. Junior Military Forces active? It should go in the article if known. --Jagz 08:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New York Supreme Court

Did the New York Supreme Court or a federal court issue the ruling? See [7], Early Actions section. --Jagz 08:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Rowan says New York state. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the rewrite!

Thanks for the rewrite. It was actually the Hearst group that was the paramilitary one with rifles and close order drill! GCW50 20:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes- I read this a couple of times and couldn't figure out the original sentence here, so I deleted it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The American Boy Scouts may have become paramilitary after Hearst quit the organization. --Jagz 20:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This reference supposedly discusses the new leadership of ABS after Hearst quit and that it became a military organization. I have not seen it yet. "David I Macleod, Building Character in the American Boy, University of Wisconsin Press, 1983, page 147". --Jagz 21:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I just got this book. There are just a few sentences about the ABS on page 147; the meat of it is already covered here. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US Boy Scouts

"In response to complaints from the Boy Scouts of America about the bad and erroneous publicity, the American Boy Scouts changed their name to the United States Boy Scouts around 1916 to help dispel the confusion. Unsatisfied, the Boy Scouts of America sued the group in 1917 and won." See [8]. --Jagz 21:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it more probable that it was a combination of the BSA and reorganizing that lead to the USBS name. None of the literature I have is quite clear on this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This says that the ABS changed their name to USBS in 1913.[9] --Jagz 00:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the link is to a pay site. This is a better reference:

• "Praise U.S. Boy Scouts for their Aid at Bridgeport" (April 18, 1917). New York Times. 

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Refs

• "To Investigate American Boy Scouts" (December 11, 1910). New York Times. 
• "Tell of Boy Scout Begging" (December 14, 1910). New York Times. 
• "Gen. McAlpin Chief Scout" (August 13, 1911). New York Times. 
• "Boys Not Armed in American Scouts" (February 7, 1915). New York Times. 
• "Praise U.S. Boy Scouts for their Aid at Bridgeport" (April 18, 1917). New York Times. 
• "Calls Scout Suit Absurd" (August 2, 1917). New York Times. 
• "Ask U.S. Boy Scouts to Drop Their Names" (August 10, 1917). New York Times. 
• Gluck (August 19, 1917). "Boy Scouts; Suggestion that the Rival Bodies End their Quarrel and Get to Work". New York Times. 
• "Investigate Boys' Society" (May 22, 1918). New York Times. 
• "Urges Accounting for U.S. Boy Scout" (July 21, 1918). 

This NY Times article raises inconsistencies in the Wikipedia article regarding the peak membership number in ABS/USBS and John Gluck's role. --Jagz (talk) 23:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that in the (July 21, 1918) link. In Gluck (August 19, 1917), he describes himself as commissioner at large. You can find more on him by searching for "John D. Gluck", mostly about the Santa Claus Association. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The July 21, 1918 article says that Gluck was an officer of USBS, not a fund raiser, it also says that ABS/USBS had a peak of 17,000 not 3,000. --Jagz (talk) 23:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

My eyes must be tired. Specifically, it says that the USBS stated it had a membership of 200,000 but others stated it had a maximum of 17,000 and around 4,000 at the time. In our article it says "the USBS claimed 200,000 Scouts but there were probably only about 3,000" (I just double checked Peterson and that 3,000 is what he stated). I doubt there is any truly reliable source on this. The USBS was not alone in membership number issues— the Lone Scouts of America had inflated numbers for most of its life. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Boy Scouts

The article Order of World Scouts and another one that I read somewhere seem to indicate that the formation of the American Boy Scouts was prompted by the formation of the British Boy Scouts (prior to the founding of the Order of World Scouts). The article says, "In 1909, a group of troops withdrew from Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association and formed the British Boy Scouts (BBS), out of a concern that Baden-Powell's association was too bureaucratic and militaristic." "The BBS and BGS program soon spread to several other British Commonwealth countries, and to nonCommonwealth countries such as the United States (The American Boy Scout)." It is possible that Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association shifted to a more non-military organization early on; this may have left the BBS without good reason for being a separate organization.

The American Boy Scout article had the sentence until March 2007, "Although given the opportunity, Hearst did not want to cooperate with fellow newspaperman William D. Boyce, founder of the BSA, due in part to Hearst thinking he needed to have "his own Scouting organization" and partly because he felt the group was becoming too paramilitary in nature." It is possible too that the BSA also shifted to being a more non-military organization early on. Also, the ABS may have shifted to being a more military organization, perhaps to fill the void left by the BSA, or maybe the change happened when new leadership took over after Hearst left. --Jagz (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

From my sources, it would appear that the BSA did not really take any sort of stance until West took over in January 1911; he seems to have been the driving force behind non-militarism. Given that several organizations using the "Scout" were formed around the same time, it seems obvious that the Scouting concept leaked into the U.S. independently of Boyce. I have never seen any mention of where Hearst got the idea for the ABS. I'm afraid the rest is interesting supposition. Unfortunately, there is no definitive work on the ABS—I'm starting to believe that this article has become better than the sum of its sources. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More USBS information

According to: Macleod, David (1983). Building Character in the American Boy: The Boy Scouts, YMCA, and Their Forerunners. University of Wisconsin Press. ISBN 0-2990940-4-9.

"The USBS's story can be followed in Uncle Sam's Boy 1 (1918-19)."

--Jagz (talk) 02:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I had seen that reference, but darned if I can find any information on it; an online search gives you a gazillion hits. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)