Talk:American Bison

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Contents

[edit] Homosexuality

Ok so I'm the one who keeps deleting the entire paragraph about the bison's homoesexual behavior. I dont understand why people are fighting to keep that in there.

"The Mandan nation Okipa festival concludes with a ceremonial enactment of this behaviour, to "ensure the return of the buffalo in the coming season." Inter-sexual bison also occur. The Lakota refer to them as pte winkte —pte meaning bison and winkte designating two-spirit— thereby drawing an explicit parallel between transgenderism in animals and people.[3] See Homosexuality in animals."

This entire section does not just inform us of the bison's behavior, which would be appropriate. It also seems to try to celebrate the magic of homosexual bison and glorify the native amreican's rituals regarding it--not to convey useful information about the bison, but instead to justify homosexual/transgender ideals. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, an encyclopedia article on BISON is not the place to be trying to convince people that homosexuality and transgenderism is normal(that homosexual behavior occurs among animals AND that this is celebrated by some people.) How about we leave the part about the homosexual behavior if properly sourced, but delete the other irrelevant information. This article will be a joke if that section remians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.253.135.139 (talk) 17:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Dangers"

I like how the "unique ability to jump straight up" is listed under Dangers. :)

MisterSheik 15:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

If you're floating directly above a bison you're in danger. 69.118.247.101 02:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Extermination (almost)

The herds formed the basis of the economies of local plains tribes who would attack the trains for plunder or during native vs. settler warfare.

I changed the above sentence, because I thougth it presented the Native Americans in racist fashion, making them look like a natural hazard, like the bison herds, instead of active participants of a political dispute over the land they inhabited. I also put it first in the list because I think that destroying the Native economy was the primary reason for the extermination of the bison herds. The political context of white colonialism should not be left out, though it probably would need an article of its own.

--Timo Honkasalo

I disagree there are few records to suggest the bison hunt was subsidised. I think the extermination of the bison was influenced greatly by the aboriginal and Métis hunters as well as American hunters and traders responding to a market demanding industrial leather for the making of belts, smith aprons, gloves, gaskets and similar industrial products. I would like to know what effect the over hunting of the bison had on places like Indonesia, Singapore and the Congo Free State, where rubber plantations were built in the 1870's, around the same time bison leather supplies were becoming unreliable. I think this transition from bison leather to vulcanized rubber had a greater effect on the world then is considered.

--Brett Knoss --BKnoss 17:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know there weren't many rubber plantations in Singapore. Singapore was primarily a port, the rubber plantations were in Malaya Nil Einne 11:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


Ok fair enough however my point is; bison hides were of great value durring the industiral revolution, and although some products could be make from cattle hide the toughest applications requiered a new material such as vulcanized rubber.

--BKnoss 04:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=282720


[edit] Bos?

Why isn't this article under Bos bison? Eco jake 22:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)Eco Jake


Why should it ? Can you name any modern zoology textbook that would include them under the genus "Bos" ?
147.142.186.54 (talk) 15:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] The Name "Buffalo"

It is perfectly proper to refer to the American bison as buffalo. Check any dictionary. These animals were called buffalo long before the taxonomists gave them the name bison (which incidentally is not an English word but the Latin spelling for the Germantic word wisent).

"Bison" is more precise; it refers only to the North American animal.
the Bison bison, and to the European bison, Bison bonasus.

Bisons are not true buffalos, which exist in Africa and Asia. That's just the name people always call it.

It is neither "perfectly" nor "un-perfectly proper", since they are neither "un-true" nor "true", but simply NO "buffaloes". It may hurt your patriotic sentiments, but a number of large animals in North America are popularly misnamed; for the simple reason that hunters, explorers and settlers had very limited knowledge of zoology (probably the number of degree holders or otherwise well-read individuals was quite limited). They saw an animal and gave it a name as they saw fit, according to their knowledge, which was rather superficial. What you call "elk" in America is not one (that is a Germanic word for the genus alces), but the larger sub-species of the Eurasian Red Deer. Then they saw "real" elks/alces, and had to take an indigenous name. The "mountain/silver lion" is not closely related to any lion, far less than the leopard or even cheetah, it is a very large small cat, zoologically. They saw these wild bovines and apparently confused them with water buffaloes (the English is from French or Italian, in turn from latin Bubalus, in turn from Greek boubalos, which was their version of some indigenous name of some horned animal in North Africa, and later applied to water buffalo when they came to see them in the Near East.
It would be most confusing to continue such erroneous naming, esp. in an Encyclopaedia. And you unconsciously gave another good reason yourself. Bison are included in the same genus as wisent, so it is a good idea to use the age-old term when naming a newly-discovered animal. "American Wisent" would have been appropriate as well. It is completely unpossible to use "buffalo" for a sister-species of wisent. Dictionaries do not count here, because they simply reflect ordinary people's habits. here we are dealing with science.147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Are names like red panda, aardvark, hippopotamus, sea cow, and hedgehog really so impossibly difficult to understand? This is language; science has nothing to do with it. The American bison could be called the azure-winged goat-ape and that would be a perfectly sensible term to note if it were a name that people actually used. And it would make so much more sense than an under-utilized, practically invented term like "American wisent" (which produces three Google hits as of 16 April 2008). -- MLS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.221.165.118 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
There's a reason it's called a Common Name. Stop being pedantic about this shit. k, thnxAsk D.N.A.- Peter Napkin (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biggest in size

So wood bison, as large as it is, is still not the biggest cattle in the world. I have to wonder what kind of beast gaur and Asian wild buffalo are? Anyone know much about these creatures?

Take a look at their respective articles. Bear in mind the thick winter coat especially around the head and neck (giving it a rather large looking head) would make it look significantly bigger then it is (ever seen a wet longhair cat?). This thick coat is obviously lacking in these Asian cattle Nil Einne 11:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

One thing I found common in Bison and gaur is they both bear a shoulder hump:

So my question is: bison's hump, is it the same type of hump found in the gaur, which is made of muscles?

Good answers above. Wild Water buffalo are very rare; I do not know if one could encounter them in captivity anywere - and do not in any way confuse them with the numerous domestic water buffalo (Southern Asia through Southern Europe) which are much smaller. Gaur are held in a number of zoos (I remember them very well from my adolescent zoo visits in Berlin. Gaur do not have a hump like Bison, Camels or Zebu cattle. They are just very muscular (sort of like an hypertrophic athlet, if you like that image). 147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Yellowstone's bison herd

The article implies that Yellowstone's herd was formed from transplated animals from the Bronx Zoo. That is only partially accurate. The animal never became extinct in the park; there was a small herd living there in 1890, but as its numbers were threatened, it was decided to stock the park with some zoo transplants as well. (I made a small edit to reflect this.)

Actually, it is entirely untrue that bison were brought in from the Bronx zoo. The bison that were brought in in 1902 were from the Goodnight herd in Texas and the Pablo/Allard herd in Montana, where the National Bison Range is now. Reference: History of the Bison in Yelowstone National Park (1951) Skinner et. al. Chief Rangers's office. I made changes to reflect this, as well as changes to the "hunt" portion. (Anonymus)


[edit] Reproduction

In a narrative about the American Bison, I think it is wrong to state that Bison can be homosexuals. Many male mammals will mount males as well as females but is this homosexuality? The term homosexual should relate to human behavior only. Humans can understand and choose this sexual preference if they desire. Animals do not have the cognizance for this any more than they have for hate, greed or any other human trait. Many young people use these pages for reference and should not be confused by verbage such as this. All statements relating to Homosexuality in any animal should be stricken from Wikipedia. (edit by anon user 66.157.90.190 2005-07-08 15:07)

Sorry but I disagree with this 100%. Your assertion that homosexulality is a purely human trait seems to be based on the assumption that homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuality is a natural state in humans and there is increasing evidence it is natural in other mammals as well. Homosexuality is sexual relations with same gender. Nothing in there about humanity – the prefix "homo-" deriving from the greek for same "homos" (as in homogenous), not the latin for man (as in Homo Sapiens). The implications of saying that other mammals "lack cognizance" or are too stupid to tell the difference between males and females is just ludicrous. Please dont push political agendas by requesting that things that disagree with your own personal philosophy be removed from wikipedia, we have a policy of maintaing a Neutral Point of View. User:MrWeeble (who in the interests of full disclosure is homosexual and didn't "choose" to be so) 23:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the bigger question is whether we're talking about male bison who mount exclusively (or nearly exclusively) other males, or whether we're simply talking about overexcited animals that will mount anything vaguely resembling another bison. The first case would represent a homosexual bison. I would argue that the second case wouldn't. Gary D Robson 17:11, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

The question can be addressed by discussing homosexual behaviour among bison, which is pretty clear: some male bisons mount other male bisons, so the have sex with members of the same sex as themselves. Unless there is evidence of bison who engage exclusively in homosexual behaviour, talking about homosexual bison would be incorrect. Deleting references to homosexual behaviour among bison would also be incorrect: young people do not learn if we hide facts from them. There is no Wikipedia policy that says that articles should be bowlderized. Ground Zero | t 21:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I am glad you feel that way, I am of the same opinion. So what to do about the anon and his repetitive deletions of material we both agree is appropriate? Haiduc 21:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I have restored the paragraph, and adjusted it to use "homosexual behavior" instead of "homosexuality". The paragraph is lined to another article on homosexuality in animals, and there is a reference provided, so there is not much more that can be done to convince the anon editor. I will look into protecting the page if necessary. As an administrator, I can do this, but I have to research the protocls for doing so. Ground Zero | t 21:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

"Homosexual behavior" sounds much better. Anonymous

Thanks for your help, Ground Zero. And to the anon, please discuss next time you have a problem, things can usually be worked out. Haiduc 23:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Has anyone more familiar with the species considered adding more information about typical reproductive habits? As it is, the discussion of homosexual behavior and "inter-sex" individuals rather overwhelms the rest of the information--information that probably has a broader appeal. Moreover, the comparison between the inter-sex bison and transsexuals seems a little out of place. I imagine there is a substantial difference between the biological condition and the psychological condition. --MLS


[edit] "Not Verified"-Tag

I put a not verified tag on this article becaue a)it needs citations, and b) it seems to repeat a common myth about the Plains Culture Native Americans playing no role in the decimation of the buffalo, erroneously blaming the decimation solely on European colonists. It is thought by at least some anthropologists that the Plains Culture, which did not exist prior to European-American contact, specifically Spanish-American contact, and the acquisition of horses by Native Americans, that the decimation of the buffalo began with the large scale hunting by Native Americans that hunting on horseback made possible. Most tribes that were not able to make a sure living on the plains prior to horseback hunting, migrated to the plains, causing a population explosion, and *subsequent over-hunting of the bufffalo. This lasted about 200 years, all the while the buffalo population dwindling --coinciding with the rise and fall of the Plains Culture-- until the near-extinction of the buffalo (which European encroachment probably only gave a coup de gras to). From my understanding, which I can cite sources for if I rewrite some of this article, guns and direct hunting by Europeans did not play a significant role because the guns available at the time were not as efficient as arrows from horesback. Natives Americans on horseback were far more efficient at killing the buffalo than Europeans in other words. --Brentt 03:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

There has been quite a lot of work done on the role of native people in the extinction of most of the large mammals in North America, with a very recent study associating such extinctions on one of the Carribean islands (Puerto Rico?) with its colonization six or seven thousand years ago, long after the mainland extinctions, so this could be put in that context also. But it is up to you to document theories and sources. Haiduc 12:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

You can find a page that verifies that the Bison can jump a fence at http://www.nwbison.org/raise_buffalo.htm. This should be a good source for the needed citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.118.118 (talk) 06:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


I believe all of these points are defensible: - Most of the inidigenous cultures in north america were modern hunter gatherers who were good at self regulating (both their populations and harvesting techniques). A lot of cultural change had taken place after the wave of paleolithic hunting technologies involved in the megafauna extinctions (consider how far European cultures have changed in the past 10,000 years...) - Plains cultures clearly existed before contact and had hunted buffalo for centuries (using buffalo jumps and pounds). The buffalo were a highly seasonal source of food, supporting only small populations, and seasonal movement to wooded areas was common. - The release of horses into north america led to a change in the hunt pattern and societal changes (eg. pony raiding, increased polygamy, expansion of populations and movement of several groups onto the plains) - prior to effective european control there had been a couple of centuries of horse based buffalo hunting and the herds are still reported as being uneffected into the 1840s. The arrival of cheaper gunpowder could have had an effect after this point. - The hunting techniques used by aboriginals were largely sustainance based and much less efficient than the annual hunts organised by the Métis. - The widespread harvesting of buffalo in order to support the fur trade (pemmican) and industrialisation (belts) created a massive increase in demand. Encouraging sport killing and slaughter by American soldiers didn't help. - The introduction of cattleborn diseases could have also played a significant role (I would be interested in seeing any references on this). - If the primary cause was hunting by indigenous people then why did the final collapse happen during the 1870s and 1880s with European dominance of the plains? With the decrease in aboriginal hunting why haven't the populations returned to their former size?

There has been much debate about this topic (both now and when it was taking place). Perhaps a new article is in store?--Hrimpurstala206.248.130.147 20:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty to make one passage in the above contribution appear in bolt print, because it appeared to me to be especially important for rational reasoning. 147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] White Buffalo/Albino?

"One very rare condition results in the white buffalo, where the calf turns entirely white. It is not to be confused with albino, since pigment still exists in the skin, hair, and eyes. White buffalo are considered sacred by many Native Americans."

I changed the sentence slightly for added clarity. It was hard to tell what was being described, the albino or the white buffalo.


I think you've changed it the wrong way; Albinism reads "Albinism... is a lack of pigmentation in the eyes, skin and hair.", while this article reads, "It [White Buffalo] is not to be confused with albino, since albinos still possess pigment in the skin, hair, and eyes." I've changed it to "since white buffalo...." --Nucleusboy 13:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Rv of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Bison&oldid=31352453

Why was this edit reverted - it looked fine to me. N0YKG 19:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

If you're talking about the revert I made, it was copyvio from this site. — Amcaja 20:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bison hunting

I have not found anything on hunting techniques used by Native American peoples except a (very) brief mention of buffalo jumps in this article. I think we should start a Buffalo hunting or Bison hunting article (see Talk:Paul Kane#Bison hunting for some leads), incorporating the current contents of the "Hunting" section from this article, and then replace that section here by a summary of that new article. Lupo 09:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I have an ethonography that goes into quite a bit of detail of plains culture hunting techniques. Most of the hunting took place during a seasonal large scale hunt, in which a herd was circled by men on horses then they would be picked off with arrows (they didn't use guns because muzzle loaders, which although available, we're much less efficient, and more expensive than arrows, and they were basically shooting a captive target since they were surrounded and the buffalo tended to stay together in the circle). Because of this technique of killing off a whole herd in one seasonal hunt, the buffalo population was actually already dwindling significantly by the time Europeans started directly participating in hunts (Europeans we're trading plains peoples for buffalo products before Europeans we're actually participating in hunts, which I think was part of the impetus for such large scale hunts to take place --the statement in the article about native americans not "participating in commercial hunts" seems to be innacurate, as at least some of the spoils of the hunt were eventuall traded with Europeans --trade is commerce, isn't it?).
Also of interest is the fact that no tribes hunted buffalo as a primary means to make a living, and nobody lived in the interior of the plains, before the acquisition of horses from Europeans in the 1700s --as it wasn't a feasible way to make a living without horses. The plains culture was a result of the newly exploitable resource that horses made possible to benefit from. That's why the plains culture was such a mish-mash of different cultures with only a basic common language used for trade which had no native speakers (the sign-langauge).
I've been planning on adding some of this info to the article, but I havn't got around to it. I have the book to reference and cite, which I think is going to be important since some people seem to be offended by the idea that native americans possibly weren't always "in harmony" with their environment, actually may have traded, didn't actually use "all" of the buffalo, and killed whole herds off therefore contributing to the decimation of the buffalo even before Europeans participated in hunts. The whole noble savage myth. --Brentt 08:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Make sure you accurately mention what times and places/regions (and perhaps numbers) you are talking about when you print those statements (which I do not claim to be wrong, and are not new to me either, because I also read similar texts in print before). The more detailed the picture, the more precise the wording, the less probable becomes any confusion arising in readers. - Also it may be a goog idea to use more than one text or book, since at least some aspects may be controversial among modern researchers; I guess journals like your "Ethnohistory" may be a good source, e.g. for book reviews or review articles (I read some issues years ago in a European library).147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Natural enemies

Do bisons have any natural enemies, one that takes on both adults as well as calves? I think it is an interesting point to be mentioned.

I have seen videos of a wolf pack taking down a straggling cow in winter when the bison do not have the energy to fight back effectively as a herd. Therefore, I think the statement "Grizzly bears and packs of wolves may attempt to attack a young calf or subadult, but it's impossible for them to challenge a healthy adult." is bogus. If no one protests, I will edit out the last part of this sentance. Eco jake 17:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)Eco Jake


[edit] Native American names for Bison

Is this relevant since there is only one entry? Either it needs to be expanded (and potentially moved to its own article) or taken out. I edited this section for vanity.

This statement seems to have been from last June, and I have to agree. First off, it doesn't seem (to me, anyway) particularly relevant what the many tribes who interacted with or depended on the bison called them. Secondly, there's only three names there, and none of them are sourced. It's been 7 months since this comment, and only two more words have been added, and I can't immediately find any real justification for leaving the section in, so I'm going to be bold and remove it for now. --Miskwito 00:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your point on "relevance". In a purely biological context, of course it does not matter at all. But an article in a general Encyclopaedia may well contain information on the cultural history side as well, as large print Encyclopaedias do. I do find it appropriate, esp. if well-written, well-referenced and included in a larger section on the role of Bison in Native American Life and culture.147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Mitochondrial DNA

"The numbers are uncertain because the tests so far used mitochondrial DNA analysis, and thus would miss cattle genes inherited in the male line; most of the hybrids look exactly like purebred bison."

My understanding is that in bison/cattle interbreeding a successful birth to a cattle cow is exceedingly rare if not impossible because of the large size of the calf. If this is true all or nearly all interspecies offspring would have a female bison and male cattle parent and thus inherit no cattle M-DNA. Either my understanding, which I believe is fairly common, is incorrect and may be worth addressing, or the validity of the M-DNA analysis sited is questionable.

It appears to be true that crossing a male bison with a female cow isn't particularly successful Beefalo (which isn't particularly unusual when there is a significant size difference). On the other hand, bear in mind we're not necessarily thinking of great success and it doesn't have to happen that often. Once you have a beefalo or whatever you want to call it with cow m-dna this will spread through it's female offspring. In any case, since the results show a very high level of cow m-dna amongst bison and a low level of purebred bison, if anything the number of purebred is even smaller then we think Nil Einne 11:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Buffalo versus Grizzly bear?

Does anyone have any information on any clashes between Grizzly bears and buffalo?--Ryan Gardner 18:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Just this:There are some photos circulating of a bison chasing off a potential grizzly attack. The photographer was Mike Tercek. http://www.miketercek.com -Kalanu

How can there be a clash, if at all, between a bison and a grizzly? The bison outclasses the bear in every way, strength and size. Trust me on this, there has never been a case of grizzly bringing down bison, those are the cases in which grizzly feeds on the carcasses of dead bisons, the observers just try to boast the strength of grizzly by this kind of exaggeration. If not convinced, you can spend your whole life with the bear and will not witness this, I assure. I really doubt if the bear has enough courage to take on a bison just to steal calf. Let alone bison, an adult moose is already too much for grizzly/Kodiak, all kinds of brown bear.

-S-
What is this? A zoological Dungeons and Dragons? "The bear has mad attack skills, gotta be at least 30 points per hit. But I don't know, the buffalo has atleast 10 more stamina points, tough call." Brentt 07:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Where was that? In the article? Nil Einne 11:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind I get it now, that was a joke suggesting what the people above may be thinking Nil Einne 11:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Bison and cape buffalo

I suspect that the bison weight is only equal that of cape buffalo. Bison is taller at the shoulder, but c.buffalo has a stockire body. In fact, I got some pic of killed bison and cape buffalo, and my feeling is the cape is even larger than bison. Anyone agrees?

Those are your guesses. Look at a good modern zoology textbook, and the reference they in turn cite, for answers.147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Too many pictures?

I think there are too many images on this article. Some of them aren't as well done as the others and should be removed. 211.25.10.168 07:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Too specific

Most of this article is pruely about the Plains Bison and doesn't relate to the Wood Bison. Only generic information common to both subspecies should be on this page, with more specific info, moved to the sub-pages. Kevlar67 23:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Subjective sentence

Regarding the following sentence: "Bison can jump up to 6 feet high and run up to 40 mph, a fact that comes as a surprise to those familiar with docile domesticated cattle."

This is not necessarily true. Having grown up in a family that raises domesticated cattle for a living, I've personally seen cattle clear five-foot fences and run upwards of 30 MPH - which can, incidentally, make for a rather interesting four-wheeler ride at roundup time. Since bison are larger and stronger, their athletic abilities come as no surprise to anyone really familiar with domesticated cattle. The sentence should be rephrased to exclude the subjective elements. (Anonymus)


[edit] Evolution and Prehistoric Bison

There's been a hot debate among evolutionary biologists concerning the origins of the American Bison. Some argue that the modern bison are descended from the Beringian (Steppe) Bison, others vehemently disagree. (The Beringian bison is characterized by the wide spacing of it's horns as shown in this picture here. A recent genetic study of bison mitochondrial DNA provides hard evidence that the Beringian bison are not ancestors, but cousins to the American Bison. BBC Bison Study Report. Why the ancestors of the American Bison would survive the great megafauna extinction at the end of the last ice age when so many other species perished, is still a mystery. (Anonymus)

That extinction at that time was mainly a North American affair; genus Bison evolved in Asia and spread subsequently filling the gap; what is the problem ?147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] "Buffalo trails"

I proposed merging the article Buffalo trails into this one. I have since looked at it further, and most of the information is already present, so I think I will redirect it to here. However, there are a couple of interesting external links that I thought might be useful here:

--Kateshortforbob 11:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Only distantly related?

"'Buffalo' is something of a misnomer for this animal as it is only distantly related to either of the two "true buffaloes", the water buffalo and the African buffalo."

This seems incongruous with the information on Bovinae, which states that the three are in different genera of the tribe Bovini. So how is this statement justified? -- Smjg (talk) 11:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)