Talk:American Airlines Flight 77

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[edit] Pentagon doubts

Does anyone have a source for this claim?

Some people have voiced doubts about whether a plane really crashed into the Pentagon. Video footage from a nearby Sheraton hotel was confiscated by the FBI. An amateur recording taken just after the impact does not give the impression that a plane had just hit the building.

If not, it should probably be taken out. --GD 23:05, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree, this comes out. This whole Flight-77-did-not-crash-into-the-Pentagon business does not belong here at all. It is discussed under the misinformation and rumour page. Arno 04:48, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
The fact that it is discussed there does not mean it's irrelevant on this page. In any case, at least a link to that page is in order. There are several sources for the claims (see the misinformation page, which I now linked), if necessary the sources can be copied. Even though it's a conspiracy theory, it has enough merit, compared with the official version (which has no direct evidence at all) to be included. Paranoid 13:49, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I must say i strongly disagree with this. And there is real proof. I believe there are even slideshows free to download on this subject on the web. One very good example would be a "movie" called Painful Deceptions - An analysis of the 9/11 Attacks, which can be downloaded via the ed2k network: ed2k://|file|Painful_Deceptions_-_An_Analysis_of_the_911_Attacks.avi|405514240|84FDF929F34A6CD69A814FE891C0A216|/ NoSuchUser
The fact that there is a "doubt" to the accuracy of the facts by paranoid and factually uneducated individuals - whether or not they are Wikipedia users - is irrelevant. The article on the Moon landing does not use words such as "allegedly" and "most believe," and with good reasons: Because consipiracy theories regarding the Moon landing are hogwash, plain and simple. The same holds true for the "no-757" conspiracy theories. There is a page on the conspiracy theories. That page should exist, provided it presents the facts. A link to that article is sufficient. These conspiracy theories have no business on this page, which is intended to present the facts, not what some people wish were the facts./JCaesar.
The theory that the pentagon was not hit by a plane is excellently debunked by snopes.com , and the link which is under that catagorey apparently contains a number of half-truths, total lies and have even modified quotes etc. I don't think a site like that that clearly contains delebriatley incorrect infomation indented to trick people into beliving lies should be linked to without a disclaimer

Nitpicking time :D "Some people have voiced doubts about claims that the Pentagon was not hit ..." I'd put it "Some people have voiced doubts about claims that the Pentagon was hit ..." -andy 80.129.100.99 00:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC) The "not" is illogical. People claimed that the Pentagon *WAS* hit, and those other people DOUBTED it. ;)

It is very true that many educated people throughout the world (I wish someone made a survey!) have simply not found an explanation that clearly correlates the photographic evidence of the crash site and the official Flight 77 story. There may be an explanation, but the published photographs do not show clear evidence of the remnants of a large aircraft, and it is very logical that doubts have been raised. I don't care about conspiracies, I don't question any other story about 9-11, I make every effort to remain objective in anything I discuss. Shutting down and disregarding those who present these doubts is not fair. I have respectfully expressed in Wikipedia the fact that the same questions about Flight 77 have been raised independently throughout the world, but my contribution gets deleted within minutes no matter when I do it. WHY? I am not denying the official story of Flight 77, I am only saying that it is constantly debated by many. And that is true.

[edit] 2007 continuation

I know people are going to hate me for saying this, but I really think there should be a small section about the fact that there are so many conspiracy theories. I dispute nothing, it's just I think it's best to talk about it, rather than vaguely allude to it. For instance, the "witnesses" section clearly gives an indication that some feel the need to prove it happened. Somebody mentioned the moon landing conspiracies. Well, there is a section about them in the Moon_landing article, as stupid as they are. I guess some feel that precisely because too many people believe that no plane crashed into the Pentagon, it shouldn't be mentioned. My point of view is, the more people believe it, the more we should talk about it, otherwise the lack of comment just fuels the flame. Maybe I'll add a proposition here in the talk page later today. Ratfox 20:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's fair enough to mention the conspiracy theories, but please use mainstream reliable sources which discuss them (not the conspiracy theorists themselves). As an example see Flight 19#Bermuda Triangle connection, where a reliable source is used to discuss the "other" theories about what happened to the flight. Anynobody 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here is a proposition. I am open to suggestions and critics, you can make your own version if you want. I mainly ripped off other wikipedia articles. I just think there should be a section about it, that is all. Ratfox 00:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoax accusations (proposition)

Main article: Pentagon not hit by a Boeing 757

Due to the important political consequences of the 9/11 attacks, a number of conspiracy theories challenging the mainstream account have emerged. These propositions range from claims that the government of the United States had foreknowledge of the attacks and deliberately let them happen, to allegations that the whole event was staged.

In particular, one of the most well-known theories contends that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757, but by a smaller object (typically a missile or smaller aircraft). Various physical models are proponed claiming the damage to be insufficient for such an impact, and the witnesses are accused of having been paid off. The suspicions are fueled by the lack of clear video footage of the impact.

Due to the high visibility of the event, this theory is controversial amongst conspiracy theorists themselves, many of them now believing it was indeed flight 77 which crashed into the Pentagon. Some of them go as far as suggesting that the crash happened, but was engineered to make it appear that it did not, the purported goal being to divide, distract and discredit their community.[1]

Okay. After waiting one week, I have now added my proposition to the page. I further suggest that no details of the theories should be given here, using instead the page dedicated to all 9/11 conspiracy theories, or eventually creating one just for this event.

I repeat, I think the hoax accusations are widespread enough to justify a small section. Even the moon landing page has such a section. Ratfox 21:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The section is overly long, and is poorly sourced. The only source provided is not a reliable source. Also, if we include such a section, it needs to be titled "Conspiracy theories" and not "hoax accusations". --Aude (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, my proposition was here for one week, waiting hopefully for such comments. I don't mind if we change the name, I don't mind if we change the text. I just think that there should be a section talking about the theories, no matter how crackpot they are... I'll try to make a new version, hopefully more to your liking. Ratfox 23:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conspiracy theories (2nd proposition, following suggestions)

Main article: Conspiracy theory about 9/11 attack on Pentagon

Due to the important political consequences of the 9/11 attacks, a number of conspiracy theories challenging the mainstream account have emerged. These propositions range from claims that the government of the United States had foreknowledge of the attacks and deliberately let them happen, to allegations that the whole event was staged.

In particular, one of the most well-known theories, started by Thierry Meyssan in a book[2], contends that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757, but by a smaller object (typically a missile or smaller aircraft). Though the book and its claims have drawn wide criticism from many sides, the theory is still popular with some conspiracy theorists.

Okay, second try. The section is shorter, named "Conspiracy theories", and uses about the only reliable source (Not of what happened, but of what the theories are). Let's try to agree on something so we can put it on the web page. For the moment, it a bit odd, because the article is debunking the theory without even telling what it is. Ratfox 01:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually the article isn't debunking conspiracy theories so much as it is simply giving the facts of what happened. Anynobody 02:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe "debunking" is a slight exaggeration. Still, for instance, there is a section named Witnesses. The term somewhat implies that there is a need to prove something. There is no such section in any of the other crashes. Also, in the section Security camera video it is said that it was released in the hope that it would dispel conspiracy theories, and concerns are expressed that the video are not clear enough to "end the talk of a conspiracy". Well, what conspiracy theories?
More or less, I guess I consider this particular theory to be the most famous one, and the wildest, ever since people pretended the moon landing was fake. In comparison, making allegations of dark governments secrets or pretending planes are remote-controlled are rather easy to do. But pretending that a plane which crashed in the middle of Washington didn't actually exist, that's really huge. That apparently many people still believe it, that's also huge. So we should mention it.
But I write, I write, and I see only now that you took care of it! ^^ Ratfox 20:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
... And there's a new version again. I don't mind, everything is summarized quite clearly. Ratfox 20:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick friendly FYI before I respond, you shouldn't feel compelled to try out potential versions here first, stuff almost never gets done unless editors are bold about editing.
I understand your concerns regarding using the word witnesses for a section, however speaking as someone who edits airline crash articles regularly, it's not really unusual. If there are a lot of witness accounts given in a source they could find their way into a relevant section devoted to eyewitness accounts. (In this case for example, the taxi driver who's cab was hit by debris from a street light isn't much different than people on the road near where Air Florida Flight 90 went down in 1982 and gave accounts of what they saw.) Anynobody 22:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idiot should be mentioned

I want to make it clear that I don't agree with the French guy's idea of the US launching a missile against the Pentagon. His "theory" got coverage in major media as the first conspiracy associated with the Pentagon though, and some people in France buy it. It really should be mentioned in the article. Anynobody 21:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If it was only the people in France! I feel ambivalent about giving this guy more coverage than he should get, but I guess he's the guy who brought the whole thing to mainstream attention... Ratfox 22:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are reliable sources about Meyssan and his theory, so it's reasonable to mention him. I think that Dylan Avery and David Ray Griffin learned about Meyssan and caught on later. --Aude (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
You're probably right about Avery and Griffin. In my experience with "theories" like this, one author comes up with something and two or three others go with it.
Ratfox is also right, there are plenty in the states and abroad who believe this nonsense. I've also never encountered anyone who buys this stuff but could give me a straight answer to a very simple question, Where is Barbara Olsen? (Along with the 757 and other passengers). They never seem bothered by their inability to answer it either. Anynobody 07:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Easy: She never existed, and the whole list of passenger was fake. Or if you know her personally, she's in prison somewhere. Or she was in the conspiracy. Or maybe you're the one in the conspiracy! ^^ Ultimately, I think some people believe that because they are just happier that way. Who want to be unhappy? Ratfox 21:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The ability of a B757 do travel at 530 mph at an altitude of 10 ft should be proven before it is included in the page.Also how it was immune to the aileron reversal phenomenon at this speed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.38.70.236 (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hijackers

we lack the flight manifest which would put those hijackers aboard, couldn’t find one, if you stumble upon it, remove the tag. Quantumentanglement (talk) 04:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] photo caption

Captions should be written in a manner that they can act as a substitute for the image for people who cannot view them, or for the vision impaired, or others who are using screen readers to 'view' the photo. I changed the caption to Officially-released DOD footage from the Pentagon shows a "thin white blur" followed by an explosion as more descriptive of what the video shows than flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. Someone viewing the film will not see flight 77, but will see "thin white blur" (cited quote) followed by an explosion. 67.49.8.228 (talk) 07:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to be so disdainfully literal. The video shows, albeit in poor-quality, what hundreds saw that day: Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon. To present it as something else just raises undue doubt upon the reader. And "thin white blur" is more confusing, in my opinion. -- VegitaU (talk) 15:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)