Talk:America's Cup

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[edit] Clarification of the Name of the Cup

The original name of the Cup has been a contentious issue in the article. Because I'm tired of correcting and re-correcting, allow me to share with you the story behind the name of the Cup. Thank you for your patience! :)

At a Royal Yacht Squadron meeting on May 9, 1851, it was decided, among other things, to have a race around the Isle of Wight open to all nations--the prize being a 'RYS Cup of' 100 sovereigns. 100 sovereigns is equal to 100 pounds sterling. The RYS minutes of May 9 and July 11, 1851 refer to the cup as the 'RYS Cup' or 'RYS Cup of' 100 sovereigns. In addition to the minutes, a flyer that announced the regatta also refers to the cup as the 'RYS Cup of' 100 sovereigns. I have not discovered any evidence that supports the claim that the Cup was originally called the one hundred guinea(s) cup by the Royal Yacht Squadron.

After the yacht 'America' won the trophy, the American winners dubbed their prize the 'One Hundred Guinea(s) Cup' for reasons unknown. Incidently, 100 guineas is worth about 105 pounds. The name 'One Hundred Guinea(s) Cup' persisted. In fact, on the very trophy itself, an inscription made by the Americans refers to the trophy as the: 'one hundred guinea cup' won by the 'America' in 1851 being offered as a 'challenge cup'.

The Cup was subsquently known simulteneously as the 'America Cup', or the 'Queens Cup', the 'hundred guinea cup', and, of course, the America's Cup. Today the Cup is officially called the 'America's Cup' without italicizing the name of the schooner.

--R S Tsuchiya August 6, 2006.

[edit] Too much detail?

I guess we are getting a little unencyclopaedic reporting on each race of the current series. Would experienced Wikipedians care to comment on the best direction to take this article? - sub articles on each series? - an article under current affairs on the 2003 series? user:dramatic

Absolutely. Don't put a different article, but put everything down the bottom of the page. Well done. Definetly comment on as many races as you can! Keep the good deeds up. --Conner5553 06:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bond characterization

Dishonest? Was Bond's dishonesty related to the Cup racing - no, hence I don't think it is relavant here. It would be like adding the adjective "Libertine" in front of Bill Clinton's name in an article about his administration's foreign policy. The place to mention Bond's dishonesty would be an article on Bond.

Yes, it was related. America's Cup racing has been described as "standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 notes". Bond spent a substantial amount - many million - to win the cup, and the money was dishonestly aquired. Not opinion: he wound up in jail for several years, and would still be there had his lawyers not got him out on a technicality. See [1] Tannin 22:11 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

In the modern day spirit of the cup, i dont think it matters where the money came from. Late 80s / early 90s challenger Michael Fay made his fortune ripping off the New Zealand taxpayer by buying state assets for a pittance and asset-stripping them. Equally immoral in my opinion. The business activities of many challengers and defenders which are legal in one nation could be construd as illegal in another.

How dishonest / immoral the source of the money to fund challengers is decided by the nations from which they come. Since there is no internationally recognised quorum of what is and isnt legal, i believe the source of funding is irrelevant.

I will leave it up to you to decide.

Aerodrome (talk)

[edit] New Zealanders

"Alinghi alone had 4 New Zealanders as crew"

I thought it was 6, Coutts inclusive.
There were 8 in total on the team, not sure about the actual crew. Dramatic 01:44 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Links of boat names

It seems odd to me to have the boat names linked to the topic that has that same name. There is one broken link that has (yacht) after the name, but all the others are either broken or linked to something that has very little if anything to do with the boat. I think that the boat names should be unlinked. nroose Talk 12:48, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'll do this myself if nobody takes it upon themselves soon. Adding to watchlist and tasks to do. Avriette 05:29, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To Be Added (moved from main page)

(Much more to cover yet)

  • Rules
  • TV Coverage
  • One World's member's possession of Team New Zealand design secrets
  • Bias favouring the Defender.
  • Lifting the Skirts ceremony
  • Controversy in the 2003 America's Cup, with professionally written death threats to defecting sailors, terrorist cyanide threats, Team NZ hiring private investigators to investigate whether Alinghi was using drugs, Alinghi syndicate being fined $10,000 by police for invading practice zones and intimidating/physically ramming Team NZ boats while TNZ was practicing

I moved this stuff from the main page nroose Talk 06:34, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Deed of Gift

I added the info about the Deed of Gift and the Deed itself so I removed the "Trust Deed" from the list above. --R S Tsuchiya 01:23, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think the deed belongs on Wikisource, with a link from here, but I'm not experienced in moving things there. dramatic 08:49, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to this section a controversy regarding the reported and actual hull length of the challenger in 1800 caused the deed to be rewritten. I do not know the appropriate date for this event, but obviously 1800 is incorrect. Someone who does know the proper year should fix this error.

[edit] Images

I hope the images I am adding to this article and other related yachting articles are OK. I have specific permission from the photographer for use in Wikipedia. Note that I had a very tough time finding good images some of these items (specifically of 1988 Stars & Stripes), and he had some excellent ones that he had taken. -Joseph (Talk) 04:23, 2004 Oct 7 (UTC)

[edit] The cup's size

I remember reading somewhere that the cup is so large due to a miscommunication of the units as imperial when they were metric. Can anyone confirm this and, if true, write it in? porge 12:27, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Seems unlikely, given that the Cup was made in England in the nineteenth century and neither England or America used the metric system back then. Lisiate 22:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i think that the confusion between metric/imperial realtes to one of the international rugyby trophies could be bledisloe cup, tri-nations or world cup not entirely sure on it though.

I am led to believe the error that the section author refers to actually led to the cup being significantly SMALLER than the proposed article? Aerodrome (talk) 12:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History/previous challenges

The early races were held in New York. Can anyone find which races were NY before moving to Newport, RI?

We also need someone with references to do fact checking, add references. - Amgine 21:47, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The matrix of the challengers and defenders as of August 6, 2006 is correct. After the 1920 match, the match was moved to Newport, Rhode Island. --R S Tsuchiya

[edit] Sir Peter Blake

Was it not the late Sir Peter Blake who skippered Team New Zealand to victory in 1995 in San Diego? Not the traiterous Russel Coutts.

Coutts skippered every race of the '95 challenge. But Blake was aboard for each race as well.

[edit] Lists of yachts involved

Given the increasing size of the article (a good thing, don't get me wrong), should we move the length challenger/defender list to a separate page, say List of America's Cup contestants? Also, we could have a List of American's Cup defender contestants and List of American's Cup challenger contestants (which is a bit better than the semi-anachronistic List of Luis Vuitton Cup contestants), to cover all the yachts which competed in any given year, but didn't feature in the main matchup. Or perhaps they could all go in one page, separated into sections? Noel (talk) 15:18, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Ditto for the 2003 and 2007 events; the details would be best handled in separate articles, with only summaries here. Noel (talk) 03:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest active international trophy?

Is it really the oldest international "trophy" available. It predates the FA cup? Is the FA cup an international trophy. If that qualifies why not the Grand National horse race? 68.71.35.93 03:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

According to the FA Cup article, the it was first awarded in 1872, while the America's Cup was awarded first in 1851. The Grand National article states that it was first contested in 1836, but it may not have had the same trophy like the FA Cup and the AC have. --rogerd 05:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

What about one of the events at Henley Royal Regatta? The regatta started in 1839 and the Grand was contested that year and any amateur club can enter (http://www.hrr.co.uk/history/trophies.asp). It has been won by international crews 43 times so it is definitely an international trophy.

The FA Cup in use now is the third trophy... the first and the second were stolen... The oldest international sporting event is the Real Tennis world championship, first held in 1740. excuse my very bad English 84.99.239.149 00:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC) from WP.fr

[edit] Apostrophe!

Surely the apostrophe does not belong? Surely?

That apostrophe means possession. This means that it is America's Cup; the cup belongs to America. Firstly, it doesn't, and secondly this surely isn't how it's meant to read? It's meant to concern The Americas, as in North and South America, isn't it? And you don't need an apostrophe for that. It should be The Americas Cup shouldn't it? 81.153.182.67 17:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

If you would take the trouble to read the first paragraph, you would know that the trophy is named for the schooner America, the boat that won the first race. So when they say "America's Cup", they are not referring to the country or the continent, but the schooner America. --rogerd 19:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


The apostrophe definitely belongs. The America's Cup is called such because it was the cup won by the yacht 'America' in 1851. --R S Tsuchiya

[edit] Outcome of the 2007 America's Cup

It's pretty obvious that TEAM NZ are going to win. That's obvious, fact. Also a fact is that Alinghi is an alright team, so they are going to put up a challenge (which is ironic, because that challenge infers with their "Defender" status. Therefore the 4 points to them seems alright.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Conner5553 (talk • contribs).

  • Emirates Team New Zealand lead the rankings to select the challenger for the America's Cup competition. All the challengers have been racing together over the last two years and accrued bonus points according to their results. Alinghi has been allowed to race in the defender selection races in order to provide Alinghi with competitive racing to tune boat and crew and also to give the challengers a benchmark against the current holder of the America's Cup. The final challenger selection races started on 16 April 2007 (but were posponed due to lack of wing and again postponed on 17 April for the same reasons). Alinghi now stands down until the America's Cup competition starts. The challenger candidates will compete in the final series of races to select the challenger. In the first two rounds of the final challenger selection series each team competes against the other teams and the winner is awarded two points to be added to bonus points earned previously. Emirates TNZ has earned 4 bonus points and the next three boats have earned 3 points each. The bonus point system is set in place to reward on-going performance rather than risk a good one off performance in the final challenger selection series which might not be repeated in the America's Cup competition due to different conditions etc etc. Alinghi are the defenders of the America's Cup. Emirates TNZ lead the next three boats by only one point in the defender selection and there is still a lot of racing to be done by the challengers. Boatman 12:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IACC split

Currently, International Americas Cup Class redirects here. The class should have its own article, similar to the J-class yacht or 12-metre class articles. There have been IACC reggatas that are separate from the AC. --rogerd 16:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear rogerd, Sorry about the delay. Have not been on Wikipedia for several weeks. I agree with you. A stand-alone article about IACC yachts should be created. AmerCupFan

Done. All of you AC fans please review and correct, add to, or whatever. Especially info about the IACC worlds. --rogerd 23:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Vutton Cup

According to the intro

In 1995 as a response to multiple challengers and questions as to how the next challenger would be selected, the Louis Vuitton Cup was created as a fair way to determine who will become the official challenger of the America's Cup.

This doesn't agree with info later on in the article or in the LV Cup article. From memory, something did occur in 1995 in relation to the LV Cup but I'm not sure what Nil Einne 19:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The Louis Vuitton Cup was first awarded to the winner of the challenger selection series in 1983. The multiple challenger format was inaugurated for the 1970 match. R S Tsuchiya.

I remember when the LV Cup name came into being but I am wondering whether, in the period after 1983, but before New Zealand's wins if there was a name for a cup in the competition for the defender of the America's Cup. This would have been when the US was fielding four or five yachts to compete against each other. I thought I remembered a specific name for the series when the race was held of the coast of San Diego, but my memory plays so many tricks anymore that I could be wrong. Thanks ahead of time to any wikimembers who can help.MarnetteD | Talk 19:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

There was a trophy awarded to the winner of the defender series in 1992 and 1995. It was called the Citizen Cup and was sponsored by the watch-maker. It was obviated for the 1999/2000 series when Team New Zealand / RNZYS assumed the sole defender status. Aerodrome (talk) 12:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Vutton Cup for AC 2007

According to the article, the team with the highest score at the end of the acts wins the Louis Vutton Cup and is declared the challenger. But it appears Alinghi is also taking part in the acts. So what happens if they have the most points? Nil Einne 19:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Nil Einne. I think that Alinghi is competing so that they avoid the troubles that New Zealand had in the last AC regatta. Through their glory years of the 90's the NZ team had pretty much stayed together in the important competitions. But with the Alighi's team raid of some of the best of the NZ team members one of the downfalls of team NZ was that they just didn't have enough competitive races under their belt when the last AC got down to two teams. In the 70's and 80's when America held the cup there were usually four or more boats sailing against each other in a defender's regatta before the AC finals got going. NZ's first defense did not have this but, as I said, the bulk of their championship team were still together. In their second defense of the cup they simply had their two yachts competing against each other, as they had done before, near the same courses where the the LV cup was being contested. In the upcoming AC Switzerland, ie Alinghi, only has one yacht sailing so I think that they are trying to keep their crew (which has had some important personel changes from their winning team) up to competitive snuff by racing in these acts. Whether this gives them an advantage or not remains to be seen. Of course, I could be wrong and if some other sailing wikimember can straighten us out it will be much appreciated.MarnetteD | Talk 19:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • For the 2007 America's Cup Alinghi (the defender) and Oracle BMW Racing (the Challenger of Record) got together to see how the competition could be improved for the sponsors, competitors and spectators. A key decision was to have a much longer build up over several years with the challenger selection races held in different locations with a focus on accessibility/visibility of the racing from a spectator and sponsor perspective. Another key decision was that the final America's Cup races between Alinghi and the defender must be competitive to satisfy sponsors and spectators (in the past there had been too many 5-0 series results). If all the challengers had intensive racing over two years and the defender had to race and tune up against whatever was left then there was a posibility that even with a good boat and good sailors they would probably not gel together as a good combination in 2007 (reference the problems TNZ had in the last conpetition which could have been avoided if more top level racing in all conditions had been available). Alinghi stands downin the final challenger selection races to prepare for the Cup races. Boatman 12:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Frequency

I might have missed it but nowhere in the article did I notice a mention of the frequency of the race. Is it held every 4 years such as the World Cup or the Olympics or is it not as structured as that? A sentence or two on this would be appreciated. Sparky132 20:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  • It's not as structured as that. In the old days it basically happened when a new challenger emerged. Since the 1980s there has been an attempt to make things more regular, but the Big Boat challenge and later the New Zealand victory threw things out of whack (different seasons and all). It's hard to summarise accurately and concisely but I'm sure someone will add a more detailed explanation soon. Lisiate 21:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sections / Seperate articles on 2007 teams? Seperate article for 2007?

I notice that the article does not have much information regarding the current America's Cup - should a new article perhaps be created which give more information regarding the current competition? On top of that would more information about each team be a good idea? Personally I can contribute a lot regarding Team Shosholoza (Many of the team members are members of yacht club I am a member of and I often visit / can easily get information from Royal Cape Yacht Club).

I was thinking something along the lines of what the Rugby World Cup article has [2] --kilps 19:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I for one think that's a good idea. Lisiate 21:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I have began work on this with the Team Shosholoza article and I have added a list of teams competing in the 2007 cup (please could those who know about different teams work on their respective articles - I will continue to work on the Shosholoza one), perhaps a separate article will become necessary for 2007 but I think for now we need to build up the section --kilps 20:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] error

Michael Fay had nothing to do with the 1995 winning challenge for the America's Cup. by this stage he had left NZ and I think was living in the UK>

That challenge was led by Sir Peter Blake, representing Royal NZ Yacht Squadron. All of Fay's challenges were from some other club, Mercury Bay I think it was.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.137.40.195 (talk • contribs).

[edit] New logo for the page?

The main picture for this article is pretty boring and uninspiring for new viewers who do not know much about the 'Cup. Anyone know what's the copyright situation around the "Blazing Cup" 32nd America's Cup logo? The Red and black one. --Conner5553 05:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

IMHO, the Cup photo now here: Image:America's Cup.jpg is the most appropriate one - this is an encyclopaedia article about the America's Cup after all. Generally logos are copyright to somebody and can only be used in Wikipedia under a fair use rationale and then only if they are used to directly demonstrate what the logo is about. Can you point me to a url with the logo? Perhaps it could go into the 2007 America's Cup article. —Moondyne 08:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007 America's Cup link

A link to the 2007 America's Cup has been reverted from the top of the page. While this event is current, I think (and so does Wallie) that there should be a prominent link at the top of the page (see Cricket World Cup). This can be removed at the end of the event. I'll change it in 24 hours if no one objects. - Ctbolt 01:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article

A user has suggested [3] that this article should be worked on to elevate it to Featured article status. I'm no expert on the AC but am happy to help. As a start, I've moved some duplicated information into sub-article at International Americas Cup Class (formula) or removed it as it was already at 2007 America's Cup (table of boats). Several other issues stand out for me and need adressing:

  • References and referencing. All featured articles must have (and to a lesser degree, Good articles) in-line citations. Currently the article has one. It is absolutely vital that detailed references be provided against every substantive statement. As a first step, someone should go through the article and add a {{fact}} tag against every citable statement. The next step is to reasearch and gradually replace these tags with properly formatted references.
  • The 2003 section needs to be expanded and possibly moved into a separate sub-article

—Moondyne 05:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Moondyne, these are fantastic ideas. I am absolutely keen and let me pledge my will to make this happen. It has been suggested by wikipedia higher-ups that if we were to develop the Louis Vitton Cup, they then may feature that. I think getting this page, the America's Cup article, up to date is a better idea; To get an article to Feature Article caliber it needs hard work. If we were to put some effort into the America's Cup now and over the next two months, come late June - and thus the America's Cup Match itself, the article could be ready and it could be featured. A date where all the hard work will be rewarded.

Is anyone else interested in chipping in? --Conner5553 12:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Newport" bad link?

I don't know anything about America's Cup, but those "Newport" links are either wrong or those flags should be Welsh. Was Newport Beach intended? -- 68.228.65.220 07:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slight change in number of participations per country.

Slight change in number of participations per country.

According to the extremely reliable BMW Oracle blog, the number of challenges from England should be 10 while Scotland had 2 instead of the previously mentioned 1.

I made the change and hope it is correct.

Here is the link to the story: http://blog.bmworacleracing.com/stories/3318235/

  • Also Switzerland hasn't ever lost a cup as last time was the first tiume they raced at all. Lisiate 05:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apostrophe type

I know this is an extremely minor matter, but why is the article title using a ’ instead of a '. Evil Monkey - Hello 04:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why it was moved, but I suspect the reason it wasn't reverted (ironically, a robot corrected the resulting double redirects later) was just an oversight. I've fixed the page now to match standard Wikipedia practice. Schrei 06:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deed of Gift 2

The text of "the original Deed of Gift 1857", on Team New Zeal;and's web-site ([4]) should perhaps be integrated. How about a reference?.

[edit] history - omission

The history section does not seem to mention that for many years the race rules stipulated that the challenging yachts had to sail to the USA on their own hulls. That is, the yachts could not be shipped over as they are now. This contributed greatly to the winning streak of the USA, as a yacht that was robust enough to cross the Atlantic or Pacific oceans was not quick enough to perform well in races. I don't know if this is accurate, but if it is accurate it must be mentioned in the article so that the winning streak of the USA can be put into proper perspective. --B.d.mills 13:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The yacht America sailed to Great Britain on her own bottom to win the cup. It therefore made sense that challengers be required to do the same.--Paul (talk) 15:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It is accurate that for many years the rules stipulated that challenging yachts had to cross to the USA on their own hulls. It is often mentioned that this had a potential negative effect on the design. This is possibly so in the very early years when the competitors boats were primarily the owners yacht with fitted accomodation etc etc and went cruising as well as racing. Certainly come the times of of J-Class Endeavour I and Endeavour II their designs were certainly not influenced by the need to cross the Atlantic. For the crossing the normal mast was substituted by a mast more appropriate for the Atlantic rather than racing and the hulls received some internal bracing to add strength. They were towed across at the time of the year when the weather was most favourable. The mast for the crossing was in essence a jury rig in case the tow broke and it was not possible to reconnect. You have highlighted a key submission which needs to be added to the article. When I get time to write this in a more structured way I will add to the article (unless I am beaten to it!!) Boatman 13:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New York Yacht Club Burgee

unknown burgee NYYC burgee

Why is this flag on the left being shown in the list when the burgee for the NYYC is the one on the right? San Diego shows correctly but what is that odd flag in the club burgee's place? CompRhetoric 23:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] T.O.M.Sopwith and the Endeavours

Surely Sopwith's challenges should be mentioned, together with the famous quotation after a protest about a controversial right-of-way incident associated with a Sopwith challenge I think: "Britannia rules the waves, and America waives the rules". GilesW 17:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propose that 33rd Edition is the subject of a separate linked article

  • Recommend that this section is removed and becomes a separate comprehensive article which grows as the saga unfolds on the basis that a separate article is used for the 32nd edition etc. There would be a link from the main America's Cup article. Is everyone in agreement Boatman (talk) 15:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Burgee_of_nyyc.svg‎

The NYCC burgee is copyrighted by the club and no permission is granted to use it. Please do not re-add. Per OTRS ticket. - JodyB talk 18:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)