Template talk:Alternative medical systems
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[edit] NCCAM classifications
- {{Alternative medical systems}} -- Alternative medical systems are built upon complete systems of theory and practice. Often, these systems have evolved apart from and earlier than the conventional medical approach used in the United States. Examples of alternative medical systems that have developed in Western cultures include homeopathic medicine and naturopathic medicine. Examples of systems that have developed in non-Western cultures include traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda.
- {{Mind-body interventions}} -- Mind-body medicine uses a variety of techniques designed to enhance the mind's capacity to affect bodily function and symptoms. Some techniques that were considered CAM in the past have become mainstream (for example, patient support groups and cognitive-behavioral therapy). Other mind-body techniques are still considered CAM, including meditation, prayer, mental healing, and therapies that use creative outlets such as art, music, or dance.
- {{Biologically based therapy}} -- Biologically based therapies in CAM use substances found in nature, such as herbs, foods, and vitamins. Some examples include dietary supplements,3 herbal products, and the use of other so-called natural but as yet scientifically unproven therapies (for example, using shark cartilage to treat cancer).
- {{Manipulative methods}} -- Manipulative and body-based methods in CAM are based on manipulation and/or movement of one or more parts of the body. Some examples include chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation, and massage.
- {{Energy therapy}} -- Energy therapies involve the use of energy fields.
-- John Gohde 19:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dianetics
Dianetics is an alternative medical system. What is the rationale for viewing it as anything else? --Ryan Delaney talk 06:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why is NCCAM regarded as the sole source that is acceptable for determining what is and isn't an alternative medicine? --74.132.180.62 22:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
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- It isn't. There is a vast difference between an alternative medical "system" and a form of alternative medicine. The template must be kept small, and therefore it sticks to the NCCAM system of classification. If you can provide some kind of proof that Dianetics is an alternative medicine form, then it certainly qualifies to be in [[Category:Alternative medicine]]. It does contain some elements of pseudoscience, quackery, fraud, pseudoreligion, and other characteristics of alternative medicine, so it could certainly be in that category. There is room for plenty of articles there, but not in the template. To illustrate, I'll use a corollary. There is a template for continents, and it would be inappropriate to start adding countries to it. Continents can be in a small template, but not all countries can fit there. You can see the vast difference here:
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- {{Continents}}{{Countries}}
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- I can't activate these templates here, otherwise this talk page would be included, and that wouldn't be too smart! You can copy them to the main sandbox, look at them, and then immediately delete them.
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- That's why we also have categories. Templates and categories serve different functions. -- Fyslee 00:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Hrm. So I guess this is more of an issue of whether dianetics is an important enough AMS to warrant inclusion in the template, then? Do you think it would be reasonable to say that dianetics may be more important than one of the others currently on the template, such as Unani (which, according to its article, is closely linked with Ayurveda)? --Ryan Delaney talk 01:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Unani was influenced by Islam, that is the main difference between it and Ayurveda, which is significant enough to warrant separate articles, and therefore entries in the template. According to the article, Dianetics is "a revolutionary and scientifically developed alternative to conventional psychotherapy and psychiatry", neither of which is considered alternative medicine. Further, "Dianetics is a set of ideas and practices regarding the relationship between mind and body"; I would suggest that if Dianetics is to be considered a form of alternative medicine, it is more of a Mind-body intervention, but would actually be better placed in Category:Mental health. --apers0n 07:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Dianetics is pretty much gibberish, but they do assert that they can cure physical disease through their quasi-psychiatric processes. And the article also quotes L. Ron Hubbard that "Dianetics sets forth the non-germ theory of disease, embracing, it has been estimated by competent physicians, the explanation of some seventy percent of man's pathology." --Ryan Delaney talk 19:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] NCCAM classifications
Wikipedia carries a fundamentally world-wide point of view. Relying solely on an American governmental body as a system of classification in the template, especially for systems that are not of U.S. origin, is a violation of this neutral and international stance. VanTucky Talk 23:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Four out of the eight systems mentioned are "systems that are not of U.S. origin," so what's the problem? The NCCAM recognizes them as such. Keep in mind that all systems get brought to the US and are practiced there. They therefore get assessed by the NCCAM. -- Fyslee / talk 04:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
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- It is a V & RS of a system of classification that is all-inclusive and has been a consensus part of the template for ages. No need to remove such a valuable resource. Restoring consensus version. -- Fyslee / talk 05:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- First off, a discussion between two users where they disagree is not a consensus. Relying on a previous consensus by default when new issues have been brought up is not okay. Second, the NCCAM is a solely American body, and by including its method of classification (which not a single other regulatory or private body uses) the template fails to represent a world-wide POV. Third, many of the classifications that the NCCAM uses for arts such as qigong, tai chi chuan, feldenkrais and yoga are very controversial. They take a stance on the healing mechanism of these practices that is only one significant view, and thus including only NCCAM on the template, and presenting it as if it were widely accepted, is a violation of NPOV. VanTucky Talk 18:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm in favor of keeping the NCCAM classification. The existence of a longstanding version usually indicates that quite a few editors agree with that version. While a new consensus is always possible, chances are that it will not stick. I also think that an important change like this one should be discussed and a consensus reached before we change a template that is in such wide use. Having said that, I feel that some of your arguments may have merit. The NIH classification is, indeed, US-centric. How about making this explicit (e.g. by adding "(U.S.)" to the text)? I do not think your other complaint (only one view of several) should be solved by removing the NCCAM classification. It would be better to add other notable/well-sourced classifications (if they exist). Avb 23:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- Also FWIW, keep the current template. There are a huge number of editors, myself included, that don't actually believe in "alternative" medicine, we ascribe to scientific analysis and therefore there is medicine as science and there's folklore or faith or something else. Keeping the NCCAM verbiage at least gives a little bit of cover to claiming that these alternative medicine classifications have some meaning.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'd vote to keep also; the version with NCCAM has been stable and reflects a well-known V RS without endorsing it exclusively. Others could be added, but speaking as an American-trained acupuncturist with a prior career as a research scientist, I see nothing wrong with NCCAM at all, and much to recommend it. thanks, Jim Butler(talk) 21:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- Also FWIW, keep the current template. There are a huge number of editors, myself included, that don't actually believe in "alternative" medicine, we ascribe to scientific analysis and therefore there is medicine as science and there's folklore or faith or something else. Keeping the NCCAM verbiage at least gives a little bit of cover to claiming that these alternative medicine classifications have some meaning.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm in favor of keeping the NCCAM classification. The existence of a longstanding version usually indicates that quite a few editors agree with that version. While a new consensus is always possible, chances are that it will not stick. I also think that an important change like this one should be discussed and a consensus reached before we change a template that is in such wide use. Having said that, I feel that some of your arguments may have merit. The NIH classification is, indeed, US-centric. How about making this explicit (e.g. by adding "(U.S.)" to the text)? I do not think your other complaint (only one view of several) should be solved by removing the NCCAM classification. It would be better to add other notable/well-sourced classifications (if they exist). Avb 23:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- First off, a discussion between two users where they disagree is not a consensus. Relying on a previous consensus by default when new issues have been brought up is not okay. Second, the NCCAM is a solely American body, and by including its method of classification (which not a single other regulatory or private body uses) the template fails to represent a world-wide POV. Third, many of the classifications that the NCCAM uses for arts such as qigong, tai chi chuan, feldenkrais and yoga are very controversial. They take a stance on the healing mechanism of these practices that is only one significant view, and thus including only NCCAM on the template, and presenting it as if it were widely accepted, is a violation of NPOV. VanTucky Talk 18:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is a V & RS of a system of classification that is all-inclusive and has been a consensus part of the template for ages. No need to remove such a valuable resource. Restoring consensus version. -- Fyslee / talk 05:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
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This is an actual consensus I can accept for the time being, even if I still obviously disagree. I sympathize with your point about maintaining a mainstream, scientifically acceptable (at least to some degree, the NCCAM has its notable detractors in the scientific community) system of classification for alt medicine. However, I urge people to keep in mind that this system is not accepted or even well-known among many of the actual systems that fall under the NCCAM's purview. A bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt here. VanTucky Talk 00:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, things like germ theory, the scientific method and avogadro's constant are neither well known nor well accepted by practitioners of the er... systems... listed, but that doesn't, or at least shouldn't, stop us from presenting them in the light of those things. In any case the categories presented are a convenient and logical way of navigating the plethora of cam articles, and even better we have a reliable source to back that up. – ornis⚙ 01:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Those examples are inappropriate. They're far too generalized. The classification of, for example, mind-body intervention was created expressly and exclusively for categorization of these systems and techniques, so the fact that it is disputed and/or unknown by practitioners is much more indicative. VanTucky Talk 01:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment. A related discussion is occurring at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_September_22#Template:Mind-body_interventions. Many of the same arguments apply there. -- Fyslee / talk 04:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I see nothing particularly objectionable to the NCCAM classifications. I don't know how useful they are, but it's as good of a way to link to the relevant articles as any. Adam Cuerden talk 17:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
