Talk:Alternative names for Northern Ireland

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Northern Ireland This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Contents

[edit] Boundry Commission & Kingdom of Ulster

I noticed the sentence:

"term is disliked by some nationalists because the whole of the Province of Ulster consists of nine counties"

Instead, should it read "Historical Kingdom of Ulster"? The maps here and wiki article Kingdoms of ancient Ireland appears to back that up. Reading it just didnt seem to make sense- the only time i've heard the phrase 'province' used is by Unionists or in pro-union media to describe NI as a province of/within the UK structure, not as a territorial province called Ulster. Unionists do use the term 'Ulster' to mean NI but I have frequently heard the argument in nationalist circles that- "Ulster is 9 counties not 6".

There was one other thing- there doesnt appear to be any explanation or link to the explanation of this in introductory paragraph:

"the region, known officially as Northern Ireland was made up of six counties, four of which were [at the time] largely Protestant and unionist."

Is it possible to link to Boundary Commission (Ireland) to give explanation of what lead to the formation of majorities described? I don't know the details of it, but theres a popular view im aware of that the boundary commission 'rigged' the border so nationalist population in the now RoI border counties were deliberately excluded from NI just so unionist voting majorities could be created in NI. Is that just a myth? Fluffy999 00:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The North

"In the Republic of Ireland, people typically refer to Northern Ireland simply as "the North". They do not usually mean the term in a political sense, however, but are merely stating a geographic reality in respect of the island of Ireland as a whole." How exactly could "The North" be interpreted in a political sense? DJ Clayworth 21:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I personally refer to Northern Ireland as "The North." The article mentions that NI is often referred to by republicans as the "North East." I don't know any one who refers to NI as the North East and unless some one has, I think this term should be deleted from the article. When some one mentions "North East" I immediately think of Louth, Meath, Monaghan, although I would have no qualms including NI counties in the definition. antnix 22:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VfD results

This article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. For details, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Northern Ireland naming dispute. -- BD2412 talk 04:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute?

I think that the content of this page is valuable, but perhaps it would be better to move this to "Northern Ireland naming controversy," since, as it was pointed out, there isn't so much an active argument (a dispute) so much as a subtle, yet political, inherent problem with the name. What is thought about this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joomba (talk • contribs) 09:08, 8 November 2005.

Out of curiousity I looked up both words on dictionary.com, and controversy is defined as " A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views.". Both words have merit in the title for this article, I feel. I certainly won't object if it's moved, but I feel the current title fits the bill pretty well (then again, I would say that as I chose the article title). Talrias (t | e | c) 11:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Point taken. Just a thought - it was in response to someone on another page (I guess I forget where, now) who suggested that this page might not be necessary because he is unsure that a dispute exists at all. Also, sorry about the awkwardness of my edit here, I am unused to the format. Joomba
I'm curious as to whether there is any active movement lobbying for an official name-change for this entity? Do some object to the official name and its cognates in other languages? Are other variations, such as British Ulster or Eastern Ulster ever used at all? //The Ever-Curious Big Adamsky 19:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names in other local languages

How about mentioning the Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots names? - FrancisTyers 21:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Please add them in! Talrias (t | e | c) 06:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a questionable topic

i question whether this topic should exist. it suggests a much more serious and active problem than seems to actually exist. "dispute" suggests on ongoing fight between two or more major parties. when it is only a few extremists trying to create a dispute out of nothing, as seems to be the case here, the very existence of an article about a "dispute" is POV.

a similar example might be if someone created a "west bank/judea and samaria naming dispute" article. in this case, the extreme right wing in israel insists on the term "judea and samaria", and it is used by some english-language journalists who take this position (e.g. william safire). but there is no serious mainstream dispute.

Benwing 04:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

What name do you suggest? Dictionaries define "dispute" as a controversy, a discussion. Dispute seems like an appropriate word but if you have a better one please suggest it. I don't think the existence of this article is POV. What POV is it trying to push? Talrias (t | e | c) 10:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename and Merge this article

I propose this article be renamed to "Alternative nomenclature for Northern Ireland". The nomenclature section in the main Northern Ireland article should be cut down to a couple of sentences, as there is far too much info on this in that main article. Any excess content in the main NI article should then be merged with here, though I think that this information here is much more accurate in general than in the main NI article. Jonto 21:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

OK - I moved the article - any objections, then discuss please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonto (talk • contribs) 22:19, 24 February 2006.
This is a really clumsy and wordy title. What was wrong with "Northern Ireland naming dispute"? Talrias (t | e | c) 22:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that not many people actually dispute the name "Northern Ireland" It is an official title, and accepted arounf the world. Jonto 22:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The largest nationalist political party, Sinn Fein, calls it by the "Six Counties", and the DUP, the largest unionist party, often refers to it as "Ulster" - as it says in the article. The dispute over the name is a reflection of the larger dispute over who should own the territory, and while it has taken a more peaceful turn lately the size of the dispute in the past has claimed many lives from all sides of the political spectrum. Paramilitaries on both sides (loyalist and republican) each have their own names for it. It is definitely a dispute. A dispute is a challenge of the validity of something. This definitely fits that description. Talrias (t | e | c) 22:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
As you have admitted, the overwhelming majority of disputes are not over the name but over the TERRITORY. Sinn Fein calls it the six counties, because it does not want to recognise that the territory of Northern Ireland even exists in the first place as a political entity. The DUP will not EXCLUSIVELY call Northern Ireland Ulster - Northern Ireland is also (if not more often) used by the DUP. Using the word "dispute" implies the PoV that the name is widely disputed, when in fact any major dispute is really over territory and not the name itself. "Alternative nomenclature for Northern Ireland" does not contain the same problematic PoV issuesJonto 23:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
It is widely disputed, both the name and the territory. I just explained that. The title you have moved it to is clumsy. I have no objections to moving it to a better name, but the one you have suggested is not a better one. Talrias (t | e | c) 23:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
You did not explain that at all- I would argue that the dispute is actually about the territory - there is nothing disputed about the name in itself - names are a follow through from the real dispute about the territory. Northern Ireland is officially and unquestionably a legal and internationally recognised name used as one of the political entities of the United Kingdom. You could also argue that now not even Sinn Fein disputes the territory because it supported the Belfast Agreement.
You may think the name to be "clumsy", but it certainly does not have the same PoV issues. Is it more important that the title is "clumsy", or that it implies a PoV?
Jonto 00:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia - not just of the present, but of history. I don't believe that the previous title had any "POV issues". The article is entirely balanced and represents the facts objectively. Talrias (t | e | c) 00:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether you are talking about past or present - there were NO major disputes over the NAME, but over territory to which the name refers. I am not objecting to there being an article and its content - I am objecting to the previous title and what it implies. You may not think there are PoV issues, but I and others above have expressed concerns. It is your PoV that the name is disputed - it is my PoV that it isn't - therefore there are PoV issues! Can you say that there are any PoV issues with the "Alternative... " name? Jonto 00:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

As an Irish Nationalists, I can say with some degree of certainty that there is little argument over what the area is called. When a Nationalists hears “Ulster”, they usually think of the whole province, so it’s not offensive to most. Northern Ireland is what is it: northern Ireland. It’s not “North Ireland” as it does not take into account the most Northerly part of Ireland, it describes what the area is roughly, most of the Northern part of Ireland.

Catholics, Protestants, Nationalists and Unionists can all say “The North” because, believe it or not, most of us are much more relaxed that what some people believe. This isn’t a big island, when you’re going down to a county that is in the Republic, I doubt many people go “I’m off to the Republic of Ireland”, it’s simply “I’m going down South”. It’s not a political thing at all.

Hard liners are the one’s that make media attention, but in reality, both “communities” say whatever comes to their mouths first.

81.79.222.137 22:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with you there 81.79.222.137 . Call it "Northern Ireland", "Ulster", "The North", "Six Counties", or "The Province", most people from either "community" in NI don't really care about which of these names are used in informal conversation.
I think this division of names into "political" categories of "unionist" and "nationalist" is really a bit PoV in my opinion. As you say, while extreme and vocal elements from either "community" may use the names for political reasons, this is not necessarily true and they are more regularly used by the common person without any such political intent. The problem is worse on the main Northern Ireland article in the "Variations in Geographic nomenclature" section, which I propose to simply list the main names and then link to this as the main article.
The same problem goes for NI WP articles in general, where many of the articles are split into a sectarian carve-up, forgetting entirely that there is a third of the population who really does not give a crap any more ([1]).
Jonto 19:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
As an example of how this is blown way out of proportion into "Unionist" and "Nationalist", here is a link to a unionist speech using "six counties" in the opening sentence! Jonto 19:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

A gross mispresentation that it blatently dishonest. All the speaker does is say that people have come to the meeting from around the six countries. As there are six countries, all the speaker was doing is stating the bleeding obvious. (That is why it is lowercased. He is referring to the number of counties.) He was not calling the state the Six Counties. If he was, it would have been uppercased. It would help if Jonto didn't make untrue claims. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Jtdirl - I simply linked to somewhere where unionists referred to Northern Ireland as "the six counties". Unionists would never consider this an official name, but may occassionally use it informally. I don't know how you interpret this "blatently dishonest" and that I am making "untrue claims" by quoting a reference. It is irrelevant whether the statement is upper or lower cased as the text was taken from a verbal speech. If he wasn't calling the "state" the "six counties", then what on earth was he referring to apart fromm Northern Ireland?
The point I am trying to make that is that, while language can be used politicaly by each "side", more often than not it is used informally by both "sides" without any such implications. By saying that such terms are exclusive to either side you are ironically creating division in an area where it doesn't exist in a significant manner in Northern Ireland. Most people in NI are not too bothered about informal alternate names, as long as the alternate name is not used 100% of the time to refer to NI.Jonto 15:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Completely misleading. The point you have been making for ages is that names like Ulster, Six Counties etc are used by all communities. They demonstrably are not. Your link did not show a Unionist using the name. All it showed was him pointing out that people in the audience had come from each of the six counties. He could have said "from north, south, east and west" or anything else. He was clearly not calling the state the "Six Counties". He was simply pointing out that there were people from each of the six counties there. He was making a point about geography, not nomenclature. Learn the difference. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The point I am making is that the names are not necessarily always used with politically conntotations like you like to imply. Just because you are some journalist who covers politics doesn't mean that nothing else is valid outside your precious little political sphere. Guess what, in daily life in Northern Ireland there are a large section of people who are fed up to the teeth with NI politics and DON'T CARE. We are talking about terminology here. Irrespective of what was meant, the terminology was used in an informal fashion. Likewise, the other terms can be used informally in NI without stirring up much of a fuss or having any political implications. (I guess adding "occupied" to "six counties" would be the exception)Jonto 00:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names of Ireland

For an informal merger discussion see Wikipedia_talk:Irish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Names_of_Ireland.

Djegan 20:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming Northern Ireland

I have amended the phrase:

the Government of Northern Ireland once tried to change the official name of the country to Ulster, but this was vetoed by the UK Government.

to

the Government of Northern Ireland once considered changing the official name of the country to Ulster.

because as far as I understood the rejection came from the then NI Prime Minister on the grounds that he didn't want to cede the use of 'Ireland' to the Republic. I have left the citation tag in because I can't remember where I read this. beano 21:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)