Talk:Alternative comedy

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It should be noted that for an alternative comic to rise to comedic prominence does not mean that they rose to any public consciousness.- can this be deleted on account of it's being irrelevant? Denverjsmith 00:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith

I would like to help clean up this article, but there isn't a clear definition as to what 'alternative comedy' actually is. Could someone who knows explain it either in discussion or even the article?

Contents

[edit] Read the history

If suggest you read through previous versions of this document. Basically, it's been written by two people. The first person wrote the bulk of the article and the second person added in some useful info but hasn't done in a very structured way. You need a Definition heading, and then a History heading. Despite what you say, the definition of alternative comedy is in there: (quote) "In terms of content, alternative comedy tended to rely not on racial or other stereotypes (which was the mainstay of the previous generation The Comedians-style comics), or even standard punchline jokes. Instead it used personal observation and intellectual humour"

[edit] Wikipedia:Notability (comedy)

I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) to help editors in deciding the notability of comedy- and humor-related articles. Please help hammer it into shape. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of the final section

I wonder about the neutrality of the following.

"Though alternative comics push the envelope and change the form for the better - Demetri Martin and Improv Everywhere come to mind - alternative rooms also have hack comics. While bad club comics often touch on hackneyed topics during their act (relationships, airplanes, the French), these hacks have made once-interesting alternative tropes trite (absurdist wordplay, cultural references to '80's pop, geek culture or hipster trends)."

that is a quote. The phrase Change the form for "the better" is subjective. Demitri Martin has made no changes to the form of standup, everything he's noted for was done before him (playing music while doing comedy (Jack Benny, Henny Youngman, Victor Borge), short one liners (henny youngman, stephen wright, mitch hedberg) use of visual aids and props (need i really list everyone from vaudeville until now who's done that?). That isn't to say he's not a noted alternative standup, but that he personally hasn't changed standup in any noticable way. Also, that any change is debatably "for the better" or "for the worse" is not neutral. ALso, the absurdist wordplay, cultural references to the '80s pop/geek culture, or hipster trends are not clearly defined nor are examples given. Absurdist wordplay, as based on linguistics, plays into the "expectation/deviation" format of comedy joke henri bergson , and has been a constant in comedy since at least Aristophanes (menander used it, plautus was a MASTER of it.) At least, if i read "absurdist wordplay" as the use of non-obvious puns, tricks of verbal tense and semantic logical conflicts within a single thought, and paradoxical or abstruse phrasings (ex. To have sex into a woman) Second, cultural references to the 80s pop culture clearly is a modern in use, as the 80s only ended 16 years ago, but reference to the past/childhood is not new, and it's debatable whether simply referring to another decade's pop culture ever constituted "alternative' comedy. Comedians have referenced out of date, formerly 'cool' but no longer 'cool' trends, things remembered fondly, and fads, for the entire last century. This is neither new, nor alternative. Perhaps, as the assertion has been made that "alternative comedy" demonstrates a generational divide, the 80s references falling out of fashion is an indication of the aging people who lived during the 80s no longer being part of the "young' crowd that creates alt. comedy. So perhaps, 90s cultural references will supersede them. Regardless, it seems ridiculous to consider referencing Transformers as "alternative" comedy, any more than Bill Cosby referencing Howdy Doody would be alternative. Reference comedy has, among comedians, been considered "hackneyed" for a long time, before it being specifically tied to G.I. Joe and Popples.


UPDATE: The section in question has been deleted. The multiple errors in spelling, capitilization and punctuation in the paragraphs above are so voluminous that I have decided to leave the author responsible for correcting them, though I must confess that "rediculous" is a shining example of absurdist wordplay.

[edit] Political satire and socialism?!

The line on political satire associates it with "...a radicalised political awareness rooted in socialism." This seems a very weird thing to say. It seems to me that most political satire is directed at the group in power, whoever they happen to be. And, obviously, comedians can have political beliefs right across the political spectrum. To say political satire is somehow "rooted in socialism" seems incongruous. Can someone explain this? -- FP (talk)(edits) 09:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

While The use of the term alternative began later in america, the claim that alternative comedy started later in America is inaccurate. The definition of "alternative" comedy given here is equally appropriate for the "Rebel Comedians" in America, who began in the '50s and 6'0s doing more character-based, story, surreal, and observational comedy. The use of the word "alternative" to describe the movement, is newer here. It's interesting that some American standups who deride the current American alternative movement are in the tradition of earlier comedians alternative at the time. Saying that America got in on this later is inaccurate: the Compass Players, Second City, Lenny Bruce, Jonathan Winters, Bill Cosby, Nichols and May, Robert Klein, Bob Newhart, Firesign Theater, and a host of others fit the definition of alternative for their time, doing something extremely different from the work of the traditional American standups. Shoot, Ernie Kovacs was dead for a few decades before this "alternative" comedy is said to have begun. At any rate, I'd say there has been some cross-fertilization throughout the post-war period, and a parallel movement away from traditional comedy. See Revel with a Cause and The Rebel Comedians.

Of course very little of what was "new" about alternative comedy was actually new. Other than the leftist or antiestablishment bent--which has been common among comedians since the early 20th century--the major innovation is supposed to be the end of the setup/punchline rhythm. Of course a decade before Elton and friends, Monty Python thought their greatest contribution was subverting the traditional setup/punchline rhythm--and then realized that some of their favorite comedians, including Spike, had already done away with it. Everyone thinks that if they're not doing Henny Youngman, they're doing something new--and then one day they realize that Henny Youngman was subverting the same comedy expectations they were. ("Take my wife--please" doesn't work except as deliberate sabotage to the usual rhythm.)
Being rude on stage, mixing intellectual humor with fart jokes, insulting yourself, playing a parody or caricature of yourself (or, in Mayall's case, a parody of a caricature of yourself), and making pointed social commentary have all been there from the birth of comedy. As for the rhythm, that always changes with each new generation, to the point where you can immediately tell what generation someone is from by whether the best bit beings with "I understand..." or "So I was..." or "You ever notice...."
What makes the "alternative comedy" of the 80s "alternative comedy" is simply that they called it that (or, often, vehemently protested the label so loudly that if you'd never heard it before you couldn't fail to miss it). It's just like punk rock--the Sex Pistols weren't really that loud or fast or stripped-down or raw or angry compared to even Chuck Berry, much less the Stooges. And it's not like rockers were ever nice, polite chaps you'd invite to your gran's house for tea. But they called it "punk" and so it was. --76.205.26.9 18:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Unless some sources can be found that document the use of this phrase and it's history, it should be put up for deletion as original research. I haven't looked through all of the external links, but it seems clear that many of them are blogs, forums and schedules that don't meet any sort of criteria for inclusion. 24.4.253.249 20:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

At least in the UK, everyone who was around in the 80s knew what "alternative comedy" meant: Ben Elton, Rik and Ade, Alexei Sayle, anyone who made jokes about "Thatch." Put simply, alternative comedy was the standup version of alternative music, aka postpunk. And, like alternative music, the term soon lost its meaning, as all of the alternative comedians either stopped being alternative or stopped being comedians (or, like Elton, both). That didn't stop young comedians who'd missed the boat, lazy journalists, or impresarios looking to make a buck from trying to carry on the term, any more than musicians, journalists, and record labels stopped looking for the new alternative music. And of course, just as there are still postpunk and alternative bands today, there are more sincere people trying to carry on the spirit of alternative comedy. (It's telling that LA's UnCabaret nights used the same venue as Amy Mann and Michael Penn's music nights.)
Anyway, as of 2007, "alternative comedy" doesn't have a single meaning; it has at least four:
  • The comedy produced by the generation of left-wing, absurdist comedians popular in the 80s.
  • Comedy that's similar in style and material to the 80s alternative comedians.
  • Comedy that's intended to be a descendent in spirit from the 80s alternative comedians.
  • Comedy that's as radically different from the mainstream as alternative comedy was from its predecessors (despite the fact that the mainstream today is made up of the original alternative comedians and their successors).
Trying to come up with a single definition that encompasses all four is as silly as trying to define alternative music post-Nirvana. --76.205.26.9 18:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


Where the heck are any sources to back up the contentions about pre-1990 American comedy? There is this hugely conjectural establishment of alternative comedy in the U.S being "in contrast to the material onstage at the Comedy Store and the Improv"--which given the definition of "alternative," might be fine--that then goes on to limn that more "mainstream" comedy as "homophobic, xenophobic or misogynistic." The entire following section reads as if written by Lapides. Moreover,the section--not supported by adequately journalistic or scholarly sources--then goes on to be somewhat of a potted history of the Un-Cabaret, not really the topic of this article. Anyone have any reason why much of this should not be deleted as PoV and the rest collapsed? --Patchyreynolds (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)