Talk:Alternative Judaism

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This is the right place for these alternative approaches to Judaism, but your additions were both incorrect and duplicative. Lets look at the list you added:

  • Anglo-Israelism -- Never claimed to be Jews, they claim to be descendents of the lost tribes of Israelites. Nowhere on their site do they claim to be Jewish. Please provide evidence.
  • Christian Identity -- Weird choice. They hate Jews, look at the text of the article, where they explicitly condemn Judaism as evil. Certainly not alternative Judaism.
  • Talmidaism -- A subset of Messianic Judaism
  • Nazarene-- A subset of Messianic Judaism
  • Messianic Judaism -- Already in the article
  • Judaizing teachers -- Refers to a movement of early Christians, not a current group
  • Jews for Jesus -- Already in the article
  • Messianic Renewed Judaism -- A subset of Messianic Judaism
  • Lost Ten Tribes -- Not a religion, the RIGHT place to put these sort of links
  • British-Israel-World Federation -- See Anglo-Israelism

Agree or disagree? --Goodoldpolonius2 14:48, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, while there are a few modern fringe groups calling themselves "Nazarenes", most Nazarenes are, in fact, mainstream Protestants. Tomer TALK 23:46, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Disputed merge

Why not merge? The Jewish denomination page already makes reference to these movements? Sirkumsize 20:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

The Jewish denominations article should not refer to any of these except the reference to Messianic Judaism. Those subsets of the Messianics should be mentioned in the Messianic article, not in an article about denominations of Judaism, since the Messianics themselves admit, for the most part, that they are religiously christian, and ethnically Jewish. The relevant word here, is "religious", not "Jewish", since, as I shouldn't have to point out, the article with which you want to merge these various groups is about religious denominations of Judaism, not a listing of every religion followed by Jews. Why not merge? Why would you want to? That's like advocating including a list of all the varieties of oranges in an article about apple orchards. Tomer TALK 23:46, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Also see

This section is silly. This is the second time I am removing it. Sirkumsize 07:06, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

  • What's silly about it Silly? IZAK 11:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Alternative movements related to Judaism"

How's that for a better title? That way, we're more NPOV and more ambiguous about whether or not those groups constitute part of Judaism or not. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stop Humus Sapians!

He is presenting pagan and humanistic "Judaism" as higher than Messianic Judaism. He clearly detests Messianic Jews and has nothing close to a NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.64.152.77 (talk • contribs).

I am afraid the anon's assumptions are irrational and based on emotions. As a matter of fact, I am not ranking various movements (and frankly have no idea about some of them). I have added some reliable sources, feel free to improve the article and make it more encyclopedic and NPOV. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hopefully the Reactionaries WIll Read This Before Reversing

I am pretty happy with Humus Sapiens' version of the article now, and have made only a couple of minor edits to it in favor of NPOV (namely, cutting a couple of opinions, and removing Hebrew Christianity/Jews for Jesus, which are in fact Christianity). Please at least reply before you consider reversing the minor edits.

[edit] If A NPOV Error Exists, Tell Me

Minor edits today. If anyone objects to any of them, please tell me first and I will gladly reverse it if it is against the Neutral Point of View. Thank you.

Zorkfan 23:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for not following my simple wish, Humus. You creep.

Zorkfan 00:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zorkfan's edit

Even putting aside the issue of personal attacks and edit warring, the main problem with Zorkfan's edit he insists on adding is that it is simply incorrect. There is no uber beis din that puts a stamp of approval on whether a movement is "accepted" or "rejected" by "Judaism". The main diffentiation between the movements listed in this so-called "alternatives" page has more to do with whether they originated from within traditional Judaism or from without.

To see how each of these movements originated, let's first briefly review the history of modern Jewish "denominationalism" for which there are plenty of scholary sources; one for example is Louis Jacobs, The Jewish Religion: A Companion, Oxford University Press, 1995. Some online articles from that source can be found here and here. Briefly, the four modern denominations in Judaism emerged from traditional Judaism as follows:

1) The Reform movement emerged from traditional Judaism in 19th century Germany largely influenced by the 18th century Haskalah, or "Jewish Enlightenment". Initially its basis was assimilation with the modern world and the reduction of Judaism to a religion of ethical monotheism.
2) Orthodox is what the traditionalists came to be called during the 19th century schism, originally intended as a term of reproach by Reform to imply the traditionalists failed to respond to the modernist challenge.
3) Conservative Judaism is a reaction to the Reform movement and came to occupy the middle ground between Orthodox and Reform. It attempted to preserve traditional norms without rejecting modernism. It took issue with Orthodox theory (halakhah, Jewish Law, not being dynamic enough) but found Reform practice lacking.
4) Reconstructionist Judaism is an offshoot of Conservative Judaism which began in the 1920s. It embraces a universalistic vision rejecting the idea of chosenness. It sees religion as a collective dimension of civilization that is essential but that should not, however, override personal autonomy; it therefore rejects halakhah as binding.

While the above four are recognized as the four modern Jewish denominations that have emerged from traditional Judaism, the following two are additional, more recent movements that developed from within those existing denominations:

  • Humanistic Judaism began in the 1960s, an offshoot of Reform Judaism but with similarities to the Reconstructionist movement. An ethnic, cultural movement, not a theological or philosophical one, it seeks to retain Jewish identity sans religion.
  • Jewish Renewal began in the 1960s, though it is not a breakoff from the existing denominations per se, but rather a sub-movement within all the denominations aimed at infusing spirituality back into Judaism. While the movement's main leader, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi comes from a Hasidic Orthodox background that he left, the leaders and followers of the movement come from a wide spectrum of backgrounds out of the existing main denominations, have varying levels of observance, and have not necessarily left their respective denominations.

In contrast, the second list of alternative movements in this article are those that have not originated from traditional Judaism nor from any of the denominations that have emerged from traditional Judaism.

  • Both Judeo-Paganism and Jewish Buddhists loosely refer to Jews who have sought to syncretize or incorporate other religions (Paganism or Buddhism) into their Jewish religious practice in varying ways. Often these Jews are still associated with one of the main Jewish denominations since many of the additional outside beliefs and practices incorporated are not necessarily deemed inconsistent with beliefs and practices of Judaism.
  • The Anglo-Israelism movement, among other supersessionist groups claim to be the "true" descendents of the ancient Israelites, often claiming that modern Jews are not the "real" Jews.
  • Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Christians, Jews for Jesus, are religious groups all having roots in Christianity and Christian organizations and purport to be the "true Judaism" in opposition to traditional Judaism.

The latter two above are alternative only in that they are supersessionist. --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 04:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the triple listing in the Alt. Judaism article

Do you really think it's appropriate to list Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Christians, and Jews for Jesus, three completely separate things, in a single sentence together in one voice? The first is, verifiably, a movement that identifies with/as Judaism and of course belongs very much. I don't think (at least today) that Hebrew Christians are a movement, though. I think it more just describes a Jewish person that adopts some denominational form of goy Christianity (MJ completely frowns and on and opposes this btw). Jews for Jesus isn't really a movement, but a denominational Christian ministry among thousands. Noogster 01:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

  1. The footnotes refer to all three groups.
  2. The three groups are often used interchangeably, even if this is technically incorrect. Some people consider all 3 to be authentic Jewish movements; the note clarifies that none of them are considered so by the groups mentioned.
  3. Edits made with deliberately deceptive edit summaries should be reverted on principle. Jayjg (talk) 01:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  1. They do, but Jewish opposition pieces to MJ have a notorious reputation for confusing Messianic Judaism with the latter 2 groups mentioned.
  2. Listen to your own words: use interchangeably incorrectly.
  3. I don't suppose I know what you're talking about... Noogster 01:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Oh I think you're talking about me having mentioned one part of my edit and then leaving out another, now I see. SOmetimes I forget to outline it all when some portions of the edit are an afterthought. I'll be careful not to do this again. Noogster 01:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  1. Everyone does; the groups are quite similar in many ways.
  2. It's not up to Wikipedia to force correct usage of terms on people, but rather to provide valuable information - in this case, about groups that are often mistaken for being Jewish. Jayjg (talk) 03:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
To your #1 I must disagree very strongly. Messianic Judaism strives to be a credible and responsible representation/reconstruction of the earliest and most pure 1st-century Jewish followers of Yeshua (Netzarim Yehudim was it, as I have learned). That is not to say that large segments of the movement don't fail quite miserably at it. On the other hand Hebrew Christianity refers to an ethnic Jew that becomes a denominational Christian (of a church, not Messianic synagogual environment) without affiliation to Messianic Judaism. On the other hand Jews for Jesus is a single evangelical Christian missionary organization (this is completely verifiable, see its affiliate page and it lists nothing but evangelical/Baptist sites), some of the leadership including ethnic Jews. I am being very concise and clear cut here. Noogster 05:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
They all consist of Jews (or those who purport to be Jews) who insist that Christian theology (e.g. Jesus was the Messiah, the New Testament is a holy work) is compatible with Judaism or with being a Jew. Those are huge similarities, and there is no doubt that the memberships overlap. They claim Jewish legitimacy, and are often awarded Jewish legitimacy by non-Jewish individuals and groups. For the purposes of this article it is therefore valuable to understand the position of Jewish groups towards them. You can certainly explain the exact difference and nuances in the relevant individual articles. Jayjg (talk) 16:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inside/Outside Judaism

I'm confused. Being atheist is still Judaism, being pagan isn't, unless you are a New Age pagan, then you are in? I can't tell where the line between these section is. -- Kendrick7talk 21:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Start class rating

The references excluding Messianic Judaism are nice, but the rest of the article is written in bare-bones summary style. It could be developed into a longer, summary-style article, or restructured into a list, but it seems disorganized in its curren format. Shalom Hello 02:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] christians

One source says this:

“It should now be clear to you why Jews have such a problem with ‘Jews for Jesus’ or other presentations of Messianic Judaism. I have no difficulty with Christianity. I even accept those Christians who would want me to convert to Christianity so long as they don't use coercion or duplicity and are willing to listen in good faith to my reasons for being Jewish. I do have a major problem with those Christians who would try to mislead me and other Jews into believing that one can be both Jewish and Christian.”

The other says this:

“Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity.”


These quotations are supposed to demonstrate that "The Messianic Judaism movement, Hebrew Christians, Jews for Jesus and other groups that believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, are not considered a part of Judaism by...Christians." They don't.P4k (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

They were written by Christians about Messianism. -- Avi (talk) 05:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The first one is obviously a Jew being quoted. The second one isn't, but one Christian's opinion (or 10) isn't justification for such a broad statement.P4k (talk) 23:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I've added two more sources. -- Avi (talk) 00:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
OK. One of your new sources says: “From a mainstream Christian perspective Messianic Judaisms can also provoke hostility for misrepresenting Christianity.” The fact that Christians see Messianic Judaism as misrepresenting Christianity doesn't really mean that they see it as a form of Christianity. The other source is good. I guess coupled with the Harries source that's enough support. The Lotker source is irrelevant and should be removed.P4k (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)