Talk:Altamont Free Concert

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[edit] Band promotion

The section about the Black Cab CD Altamont Diary that was added recently seems tangential to the article. If it's not just someone trying to promote their CD, perhaps it would be better included on a page about the band, with a link to this page. Szarka 15:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

I think the title of this article needs to be clarified. Initially it seemed to be about the speedway, but it is mainly about the music festival.

Even "Altamont Raceway Park" is dubious for the content. Why not "Altamont Rock Festival"? 66.190.72.225 14:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I also think this article should have another title, and it looks like this article is written by a gratefull death fan. Not that it's wrong to like their music, but at the end the article becomes too much an article about how they handled with the incident.

Retitled to Altamont Music Festival, checked for Double Redirects, believe I got them all. --Atechi 20:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, accusations have arisen by Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead and others, that this was to ensure better lighting that would be available in an evening performance. Two of the deaths were caused by a hit-and-run car accident. Another death was the result of a person drowning in a drainage ditch.

The final two sentences seems out of place and should probably be placed immediatly after the first mention of three people being killed.

Also, someone please change the title of the article.

--Laggard 04:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the current title is confusing. However, it's difficult to know what the most accurate might be. I don't believe "Altamont Rock Festival" or "Altamont Music Festival" (as it's named on the disambiguation page), for example, were the name under which the event was promoted. (Seems unlikely, since the venue was changed to Altamont at the last minute.) A google search turned up multiple images of two purported "tour posters". Both are headed with "The Rolling Stones present", the date, a mention that the concert is free, and "Altamont Raceway". If these are authentic, then "Altamont Raceway" might, in fact, be the best title for this page. (Popular usage seems to be simply "Altamont" to refer to the event, but of course that title would be ambiguous.)

It looks like this page was changed from "Altamont" earlier, and links to this page seem to point to the redirect page at Altamont rather than directly. So, if a change is to be made, it would be good to make the change to the title first and then update the links from other pages. Szarka

I've changed it to Altamont Free Concert, since that was what the bold part in the intro said and I think it is most descriptive and accurate. It was not intended as a music festival per se, really, but rather a free concert at the end of the Stone's 1969 American tour as a gift to their fans.

I've also created an Altamont Motorsports Park article for the racetrack itself, and changed all the racetrack names to redirect to there. That should eliminate some of the present confusion with odd redirects. I've tried to fix up wlinks but may have missed a couple here and there. Wasted Time R 13:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for updating the article title references in the "American Pie" article, Wasted Time R. --Dkwong323 01:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stage height

"The stage, which was only four feet high..." The article at http://www.echoes.com/rememberaday/altamont.html reports that the stage was only one foot high. Can anyone settle this question one way or another? Szarka

OK, I found a better source: the commentary at http://www.loc.gov/film/lund.html and especially Stanley Goldstein's response at http://www.loc.gov/film/lund.html. Based on this source, I'm going to make some changes:

  • Change "four feet high" to "one foot high".
  • See the discussion in this source re: the legend that the Angels were hired for $500 worth of beer. The article currently repeats this legend with the qualification "reportedly"; I'll try to clarify.
  • Every source I've read, including this one, suggests that the change of venue was finalized only one day before the event. (The permit for holding the event at a public space in SF was either revoked or refused, depending on which source you believe, days before the event; but the Altamont Raceway as the venue wasn't finalized right away, first they attempted to negotiate the use of another venue.) I'll reword appropriately.

Szarka

  • I recently read a book about Altamont, it states that the stage is four feet high, I'll get the source soon. Also, how can the stage be "three to four feet high"? It's either one or the other, and it was four feet. I'm going to correct it.

CrashJet555

[edit] Security

Someone else might want to research the security arrangements in more details and rewrite further. (See Goldsteins discussion in the endnote's to his response, which suggests that the Angels didn't normally manage the crowd, just protect the equipment.) I left the part about "suspected that their involvement was motivated more by a desire to manage drug distribution at the concert" in, for example. But what is the source for this? Who, exactly, suspected that? It doesn't defy logic, or stretch credulity, by if I were making that claim, I'd want to be more specific. Szarka

[edit] Speedway name

Also changed an occurance of "Altamont Speedway" to "Altamont Raceway" to reflect usage elsewhere in the article, usage on the previously-mentioned posters, and the current whois registration for altamontraceway.com (now unavailable; they appear to have changed recently from doing business as "Alamont Raceway and Arena" to "Altamont Motorsports Park"). Szarka

[edit] Sonny

Sonny Barger WAS NOT the founder of the HAMC.

[edit] please correct height of stage

I just finished watching the actual 'Gimme Shelter' movie, and looked up Altamont on Wikipedia for more info on the murder shown in the movie. While the article as written is very informative, the height of the stage is clearly closer to chest high, not shin level (as 1 foot high would be).

You can review frames in the movie of fans attempting to climb onto the stage at many points; one clear example is at the beginning of 'Sympathy for the Devil' near the end of the movie. Note also when the female fans are pressed against the stage, everything below mid-chest is hidden by the stage.

I recommend you adjust the height of the stage to four feet as suggested by earlier contributors, and disregard the 1-foot height quoted from the article at http://www.loc.gov/film/lund.html

65.78.8.202 08:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)M.G.

[edit] to clarify height of stage

The article at http://www.loc.gov/film/lund.html says, "The stage was only a foot above the audience which made security even more difficult. Things started to get violent during the Jefferson Airplane's set."

So, it appears the source article for the 1-foot high stage quote, was quoted imprecisely in the Wiki. The source does not say the stage was 1-foot high, it says the stage was "a foot above the crowd."

I looked for a screen capture online, but found nothing from the actual movie, which shows fans pressed against the stage at chest height.

65.78.8.202 09:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)M.G.

[edit] phot showing stage height from filmmakers website

AH-ha! See the photo in black and white here: http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/44/images/Albert.Gimme.jpg

Fans are leaning on the stage, it is clearly neither "a foot above the crowd", nor is it "one foot high."

http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/44/docu.html The Legacy of Albert Maysles

65.78.8.202 09:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)M.G.

Nice to see more info on the height of the stage. Hmmm... Maybe instead of "one foot" the article should say something more ambiguous, like "a few feet" or "low"? Szarka 06:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] thanks for your reply

Yes, either a "low stage" or a "few feet high" is better than the inaccurate "one foot high."

IMO it would be best to describe it as "between 4 and 5 feet high"; the height of the stage contributed to the problems during the concert (fans climbed up onto the stage in droves; Marty Balin of the Jefferson Airplane was knocked unconscious during one brawl) and calling it "low" or a "few feet high", while not inaccurate, leaves too much to the reader's own interpretation of what that would look like.

Of course, the point is moot if one has seen the movie, but the article should to attempt to make a clear visual through language for those who do not have the movie on hand as reference material.

65.78.8.202M.G.

Good discussion here. Since the stage height in the article is clearly incorrect, I have edited the article to read "three to four feet high" based on the footage from Gimme Shelter. If a better consensus is reached here, please feel free to change. My personal preference is "approximately four feet high.". Satori Son 13:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Depth

It is absolutely ridiculous that you have to read down an entire paragraph to find out WHERE this thing took place...It should be in the first sentence. And then all it says is "Northern California".

Fixed. Wasted Time R 13:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stage height - additional source

Hi, this is my first contribution so apologies if there's any mistakes.

I'm currently reading Philip Norman's book 'The Stones' and he lists quite a bit of information about this event. With regard to your discussion about the stage height, Norman states (on page 388) that:

"The stage-rim was, inexplicably, only four feet or so from the ground."

Reference is: Philip Norman, 2001, The Stones, London, Sidgwick & Jackson

Johnnyboy101 20:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Security - further discussion

Philip Norman also writes on the security arrangements regarding Hell's Angels, of interest may be the following paragraph on page 389:

"Santana's performance had been punctuated also by a fusillade of full beer cans, thrown from the Angels' school bus commissariat thirty yards away. Cutler (Sam) sent an emissary to the Angels in charge of the bus, offering to buy their entire beer supply for $500. The beer could thus be put on the stage, preventing its use as random missiles. This was the origin of one powerful Altamont legend: that the Hell's Angels were hired by Rolling Stones people for $500 worth of beer."

In relation to the decision to hire Hell's Angels as security, Norman writes on page 384:

"Exactly who first had the idea of hiring Hell's Angels as a security force, no one can remember now. Some say it was Rock Scully, the Grateful Dead's manager; others remember Emmett Grogan of the Diggers."

And also:

"They were not hired as bodyguards for the Stones, as all subsequent reports would allege. What happened was that Stones people - notably Sam Cutler, the concert compere - went along with the plan to invite them."

As stated in the article, it seems that the role the Hell's Angels were to play at the concert was unclear.

Reference is: Philip Norman, 2001, The Stones, London, Sidgwick & Jackson

Johnnyboy101 20:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction - contradictory claim regarding number of births

The introduction to this articles states that four births occurred over the duration of the concert. Philip Norman writes that this claim was made by Sam Cutler to the San Francisco Chronicle and cited in their article on the concert the next morning (page 397). Later Norman writes:

"It further emerged that no babies at all had been born during the festival. The nearest approximation was a youth who announced he was pregnant, just prior to jumping from a traffic flyover and sustaining serious multiple injuries."

WIth regard to medical tents, apparently only nineteen doctors were available to help during the day.

Reference is: Philip Norman, 2001, The Stones, London, Sidgwick & Jackson

Johnnyboy101 21:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medical Facilities

I just recently read a book about Altamont, it states that there was sufficient number of medical staff, but no paths for emergency vehicles to come and go. I won't change until I have cited the source. - CrashJet555

The two souls who were killed when they were run over in their sleeping bags were Mark Feiger and Richard Savloy. --Subvent1 00:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fired

A film shows clearly that Hunter drew and fired his pistol before he was stabbed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 09:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC) The "Rolling Stone" edition of Jan.,1970, said "an unmistakeable orange flash" was visible from Hunter's gun, before he was stabbed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 13:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC) An autopsy showed that Hunter was under the influence of methamphetamines when he died. At least twice, Hunter had charged on to the stage. This may have given him the impression that the Angels were his enemies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus on what the film shows. Here's the 'orange flash' quote in context.
In one frame, just before he is jumped, there is an unmistakable orange flash at the end of the pistol, Bibb adds. It lasts only for this one frame. Bibb is not saying this is a gunshot, and he's not saying it's not. It might be, say, a reflection off someone's watch or glasses. "The Angels say there was a shot fired," says Bibb. "I can't tell you. It's impossible, really, to tell what it is. None of us heard a shot."
Here's what Albert Maysles, one of the directors of Gimme Shelter, said in a Sunday Times article
He spoke of scenes that seemed to show Hunter taunting the Hell's Angels and of another shot that showed an orange flash, perhaps the flash of Hunter's gun being fired. Whether or not he had fired the gun is an enduring puzzle. 130.156.30.172 (talk) 17:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I have seen the film "Gimme Shelter"countless times since it was released.It can be clearly seen that Meredith Hunter had a gun in his hand and was pointing it at the stage.Mr.Passaro attacked Hunter to prevent what could have been a tragedy to the rock world had he shot one of the Stones.He could 've killed innocent bystanders as well.Hunter was the villain in the drama not Alan Passaro.jeanne (talk) 08:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jagger assassination attempt as retribution from HA