Talk:Alsace

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Contents 1 General advice 2 Identity 3 List of notable Alsatians 4 Political bias 5 Alsace/Elsass 6 Elsaß non Elsass 7 General complaints 8 Religious exception? 9 download size 10 Music 11 Sauerkraut 12 Language 13 "Politics section" 14 Sounds like an advert. 15 Need help 16 Fair use rationale for Image:AlsLogo.png 17 Why isn't this page Protected? 18 Language section 19 List of notable Alsatians (2) 20 Loyalties 21 Political bias II

[edit] General advice

Wondering how to edit this région entry? The Wikipedia:WikiProject French régions standards might help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShadowDragon (talk • contribs) 23:30, 5 June 2004 (UTC).

[edit] Identity

Since its conquest by Louis XIV, Alsace has been more loyal to France than German, because Louis XIV freed the serfs thus allowing greater growth and freedom. THis should be placed in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.106.127.101 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 26 August 2004 (UTC).

Alsace is a very good exemple for forced assimilation of minority populations. Maybe it's the best exemple of mass-brainwashing of an ethnical group in Europe. While the Alsatians where definitely German in speech, culture and language for more than a milenia, the French occupation wiped out them ethnical and national identity and forced them to become "good French citizens".

If we compare the situation of the German speking Alsatians with the situation of Transsylvanian Hungarians of Romania, we should ask very seriousely: Why the Latin Romanians have been so tolerant and democratic in manners of conduct with the minorities since centuries and why the Latin French have not?

In Transsylvania, since the XI-th century, the Hungarians settled among the large Romanian populations, as conquerors and privileged social strata. Before 1918, the "Transsylvanian-style apartheid" prevented the entering of the Romanian majoritary populations into the cities and into the profitable bussiness of Transsylvania. Even so, the Romanians constantly developed into a democratic and liberal minded community. The union of Transsylvania with Romania, after the WWI meant the introduction of Universal Vote for all citizens, the end of "Hungarian style apartheid" and cultural and national freedom for all the ethnical groups. The Romanians granted and ensured free State-sponsored Hungarian schools for all, cultural freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of settlement. The Hungarian speaking schools, theaters, cultural foundations and papers are largely sponsored by the Romanian State (1920-2006 - period). During the Communist regime, the Hungarians where largely over-represented into the Romanian Communist Party (20% of the membership, compared with abb. 7% of the total population).

After 1990, the Positive Discrimination Policies are favoring the Hungarians in school, university and job enrolement, even that the economical situation of the Hungarian minority was always slightly better than that of the Romanian majority. The official use of Hungarian language is granted in every community made of at least 20% Hungarians. The Hungarian language is used in justice, administration and culture; 15% of the actual Romanian Government personell (2006)is made of Hungarians (the Hungarians are 6.5% of the Romania's population as compared with 89.4% Romanians - data of 2006). Today, in 2006, the Hungarians are 19% of the Transsylvanian population (compared to 75% Romanians).

What is very strange is the fact that in France one can read and hire, among "intelectual and educated societies" complains about the "bad situation of the Hungarians in Romania" but not a single complain about the forced assimilation of the poor German-speaking Alsatians. Odd ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 (talk • contribs) 06:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of notable Alsatians

On the list of notable Alsatians, Albert Schweitzer is conspicuous by his absence. Sca 18:30, 5 October 2004 (UTC)

Albert Schweitzer has been added.

Shouldn't Baron Johann de Kalb be included on the list as well??? Samatva 21:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Johann Gutenberg is said to be from Alsace but he was born, died and lived the most time of his life in Mainz / Rhineland-Palatinate. He spend some time in Strasbourg (1434-1444) but does this make him an Alsatian? Cattleyard 09:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political bias

The history section in the article is totally biased (with anti-French/German nationalist approach), and needs to be seriously rewritten. Hardouin 03:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can you explain the nature of the bias? Thanks Guettarda 23:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please see my comment at Talk:Lorraine --Tkinias 01:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Revisions for NPOV. I suggest the NPOV tag now be removed.

• "Alsace and Lorraine were reunited with Germany after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870" - corrected; Germany did not exist before 1870 so there was no question of reunification
• "After World War I those Alsatian, who moved in from other parts of Germany, were expelled. The re-establishment of German identity was reversed following the German surrender in 1918." > "After World War I the re-establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, while Alsatians who came originally from Germany were expelled." I.e., "other parts of" removed
• "while putting a halt to the anti-German oppression" = "oppression" changed to "discrimination", a correct and less emotive term
• "The war-torn area was given again in 1944 to France, which had then free hands to restore its policies." > "..which restored its policy of promoting the French language."

Rollo 13:49, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The flaws run far deeper than a few offensive expressions. As I suggested at Talk:Lorraine, we need a discussion of the Alsace-Lorraine issue. The problem is that the "two sisters" have immense potency as nationalist symbols on both sides of the border, and both sides try to paint the regions as "really French" or "really German", when in fact they were neither for most of the history, because nationalism hadn't been invented yet. And the "anti-German" policies were not anti-German, but standard French republican centralization and homogenizing -- the same process going on in Provence, Bretagne, etc. --Tkinias 14:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's a silly argument, we're talking about anti-German culture, not anti-German government. German culture, despite your claims to the contrary, did indeed exist and has existed for a very long time. And because the French also executed the same policies in other areas does not mean that they are somehow not descriminitory. Indeed to this day the French government has been attempting to cleanse ("homogenize" if this is your preferred euphemism) minority languages throughout France. Unless you're a staunch nationalist I see it diffucult to say how you could honestly describe the specific banning of a language as not being discriminatory. It's as if a racist were to say "I don't hate black people, I just want to homogenize everyone so they are white" Hvatum 02:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is clearly a more complex issue than simply one of two colliding nationalisms. But as to the question of whether the article is even-handed, I can't find anything factually suspect. And the tone seems to me reasonably fair to both sides. Now it would seem to be just a question of adding a section to highlight the points you raise. --Rollo 10:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What about a new article that both Alsace and Lorraine can link to? I might be able to write one up after the end of the semester here. —Tkinias 11:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why not? As it happens I don't know a lot about this subject - I was just trying a bit of neutral dispute resolution. Still, the NPOV tag still seems to be there... Rollo 02:00, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Everybody knows-Alsatians are pseudo-French. VIVE L'ALSACE ALLEMANDE !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.237.185 (talk • contribs) 12:35, 4 December 2004 (UTC)

Just like "everybody" knows that Ukrainians are pseudo-russian and Tawianese and Tibatans are pseudo-Chinese? If you're going to weasel your above opinion into all the articles online stop posting on Wikipedia. There's no such thing as "everybody knows" and such statements do not belong in Wikipedia, even on the discussion pages. Also in the future sign your comments, you can do so with four tildes ~ in a row at the end of each commentHvatum 08:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

- A very good example for a neutral point of view is the page about the macedonians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.235.218 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 January 2005 (UTC)

When you ask an Alsatian what he thinks about his nationality, he will answer you: "I'm Alsatian first and foremost". I have to say that we never had the feeling of being entirely french, nor we had the feeling of being entirely german.During the Middle-Age era, the question was not an issue, considering Alsace was under the Emperor's authority for its major part. But I must agree, being part of the Empire doesn't mean being German, at least before the 17th century. After that, we were considered french anyway, but, as I said, we were first and foremost alsatian, had always been. As for more recent history, I personally have some members of my family that lived throught the 1870 franco-prussian war, and wrote down their impressions. Add to that the formal protestations of the alsatian deputies in Bordeaux, you can easily find the impression the people had. Alsace knew a massive emigration during those years (a part of my family went to Chicago). When Germany finally retrieved Alsace, it was to have less than thrilled Alsatian leave their native places to fly all around France and the world. So, as i said, do not fool yourself: Alsace was not a happy German area.

But to this, I must add a few things:

1. Before WWI, German politics in Alsace were not bad for the area. They developped Strasbourg (which has a great German neighborhood now), brought the electricity, urban gas, urban light, they founded the University and a Landes Library. They built a tramway, and at the end of the nineteenth century, Strasbourg was a prosperous city.
2. During WWI, German politics were changed: they begun to have suspicions toward Alsatian, suspicions because they thought Alsatian were still french, and these suspicions were not relieved by the fact that a lot of Alsatian refused to fought against french. My personnal family history shows that: my great-granfather was in an all Alsatian troop, and they were only directed by a German Captain. At the first occasion they had, they chose to became french prisonners rather than to shoot a french soldier.
3. At the end of WWI, Alsace was happy to find again France. You can find things like "Le Conseil de... est heureux d'accueillir les glorieuses troupes de sa mère patrie la France" (The town council of... is happy to welcome the glorious troops of its mother-country, France"), but by the end of the 20s you could find all sorts of protestation groups wanting only one thing: autonomy from France AND Germany. Thosed groups divided in two during WWII: part of them where happy to receive an audience from Germany and nazism, and a great majority of the autonomists where not really opposed to the idea of pangermanism. However the nature of the nazi politic essentially forbid thinking about autonomy. A lot of them where put in deportation.
4. WWII was awfull for Alsace. The area suffered a lot, probably a lot more than most of the other French regions. That is one of the reasons for Le Malaise Alsacien as some writers called it: The uneasiness of Alsace. At the end of WWII, a generation was sacrified: French government accused Alsace of having cooperated with the Nazi, and conducted a trial against 14 alsatian part of the Charlemagne division that destroyed Oradour-sur-Glane. 13 of them were "Malgré-Nous", "Against-Us", young men enrolled against their will, with the certainty that, if they deserted or refused to go, each members of their family would suffer from their decision. After that, even if the 13 were out of jail before the 50s, thanks to De Gaulle, we never felt wholy french. I know, for one, that I was educated to know that I'm first Alsatian, then European. Maybe that's because of this history that Alsace has great hopes for Europe.

87.88.140.110 12:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Anne-Caroline Sieffert

Ah, alors là... vous avez tout faux là, Madame! Not everything in fact - but so much that the rest does not really remain right, neither! To start with the end: Who or whatever gave you the idea that it was the Division Charlemagne that destroyed Oradour and massacred its population?? It was of course "normal" Waffen SS (the division "Das Reich") - even the Nazis were not crazy enough to send French volunteers against fellow civilians! (Even after the "good work" of the Vichy-police in the deportation of the French jews.) Alsatians could, of course, not become part of the French "Brigade" (as long as they were recognised as such by the occupators) - as they were regarded as Germans by the Nazis and were on military duty - and not volunteers - in the Wehrmacht or even the Waffen SS (which was not a simple part of the SS and thus not exclusively made up of (volutary) members (and SS-men) and to which the Nazis especially drafted "foreign Germans" like Southern Tyrolians, East-Prussians etc. - the "most exposed"!). "Volunteer" (the one out of fourteen) means, he would have been drafted - at least to the Wehrmacht - anyway. The others were - whatever that (really) means - "Malgré-Nous" - young men enrolled against their will - just as very many Germans and Austrians at that time! - So where is the speciality?? The speciality is that other than the "Charlemagne-guys" they would have had the "certainty that, if they deserted or refused to go, each members of their family would suffer from their decision" - something that absolutely does not have to be explained to Germans - but to French (! - and its good you do, but not well enough!) as many French cannot understand the difference between collaboration in (at that time) France - and "collaboration" in (illegaly annexed) Alsace!

You seem to have a much clearer idea on the subject than "some other" contributers here, a more "Alsatian" one. Still you let yourself be misguided so easily by simple details! As f.i. "things like "Le Conseil de... est heureux d'accueillir les glorieuses troupes de sa mère patrie la France" (The town council of... is happy to welcome the glorious troops of its mother-country, France")". - Did it ever occur to your mind that (whatever it may mean and express else) this is exactly what the French troops at the "liberation" after WWI wanted to hear - or what Alsatians would have expected them to like hearing??? --134.176.67.237 16:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Stephele

[edit] Alsace/Elsass

Alsace was part of the German-speaking territory of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648 when most of it was wrested from the Emperor by the King of France in the Treaty of Westphalia which concluded the Thirty Years' War. The Emperor ceded Alsace outright to avoid having the King of France as member of his estates. Later in the same century, Strasbourg was also seized by Louis XIV, who reinstated Catholicism.

Whilst Alsace is largely German-speaking (and, strictly speaking, most German speakers do not speak Standard German but Alsatian dialect, a dialect identifiable as German without any doubt whatsoever), it is difficult to say whether it is definitely 'German' or 'French'. The German-speaking Alsatians share a status similar to that of German-speaking Austrians in the Southern Tirol, i.e. they are part of a geographically continuous German speech community but find themselves located in a neighbouring state with an unrelated national language. One may ask to what extent German-speaking South Tiroleans look to Vienna rather than Rome, and in the same way the German-speaking Alsatians look to Berlin.

The following points may be of note.

1. The first-ever printed German Bible was published in Strasbourg in 1466 . During the 16th century, there were probably in excess of 3000 books printed in Strasbourg. Of those known, only three were in French. The rest were in German (the vast majority), Latin or other languages such as Greek. Strasbourg was a very important centre of German protestantism and many of Luther's works were published there during the sixteenth century. These facts, along with the existence of Albert Schweitzer, tend to be overlooked by histories written in French.

2. A German nationhood or even nationality was only just begining to emerge within the multi-ethnic and multi-lingual Holy Roman Empire in the 17th century. Therefore it would not be correct to say 'a part of Germany was siezed by the French', but that is not to say that Alsace could never have been described as 'German'. It was very firmly entrenched in German cultural influence. More important to the ordinary Alsatian in the 17th century were his freedoms.

3. After the defeat of Napoleon, the Austrian Emperor refused to let Alsace become part of Prussia for fear of Prussian strength. Through this most unlikely demonstration of generosity to the French, Alsace remained part of France.

4. Alsatian German was the main language of most people until the twentieth century; however, the ruling classes and wealthier middle classes tended to speak French in the nineteenth century.

5. It may well be the case that German and French languages acquired a social connotation during the 19th century, and emerging social conflict therefore exacerbates the language and national question.

6. When Alsace-Lorraine was reunited with the German-speaking world in the German Reich under Bismark in 1871, its status was inferior to other German Länder. It had far less representation than others and it was a personal domain of the Kaiser. It was termed 'Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen'.

7. There were migrations from Alsace of wealthier French speakers at this time, and many German-speakers moved in from Germany proper. At this time, standard German became the official language, but it is not correct to say that French was banned or ignored. There was a (albeit unequal) dual lingualism.

8. Through its membership of the German Reich, the region developed and industrialised, and there are many monuments to this period (1871-1919), such as the railways, the Postal Service, the 'Ville Allemande' in Strasbourg, etc. The population grew and the region prospered. The University of Strasbourg was founded.

9. Where the sympathies of the Alsatians lay at the outbreak of the First World War is hard to say. They were enlisted to fight for the German Reich, of course, and did so often in the remote East (East Prussia). This may, or may not, be a token of the German Army's uncertainty about their loyalties. Often Alsatians were described unflatteringly by officers. It is hard to say whether the population of Alsace as a whole welcomed German defeat and its subsequent reincorporation into France or resented it. There was undoubtedly a mixture, and it depended largely who you were and what you had to gain or lose.

10. After the First World War, significantly, the French refused a plebiscite in the region and expelled all Germans who had settled there during 1871-1919. This was an early example of 'ethnic cleansing'.

11. The German language was suppressed in the period between the World Wars.

12. Undoubtedly, German rule 1940-44 was uncompromising. Again, no plebiscite was granted after the Second World War, unlike the Saar region.

13. It seems strange, at least to the eye, to imagine an historian as eminent as Phillipe Dollinger arguing for France with such a German name; it is odder to find Alsatian speakers with German names saying they are definitely French. During the Wilhelmine period, over 80% of the region described itself as German-speaking in the censuses.

14. There have been movements for autonomy since the 19th century.

15. In conclusion, it is possible to say, on balance, that Alsace, and Strasbourg, belong traditionally to the German Kulturkreis. However, it was never part of a German nation state except for the period 1871-1919. It is interesting to speculate how a plebiscite might have gone after the First World War. After the Second World War, German became 'unfashionable' as the language of dictatorship, and French was eagerly embraced by the inhabitants. This is now giving way to a cautious resurgence of interest in German roots and Alsatian dialect. Standard German is now being favoured in schools. However, this may undermine, rather than strengthen, dialect. In the cities, virtually all speak French and German is not heard that often. French people as a whole are far more sensitive about Alsace than Germans; e.g. a museum worker in the Museum of Alsatian Life in Strasbourg reacted indignantly when he was asked about the state of the German language in Strasbourg. His reply was 'ce n'est pas l'allemand, c'est l'alsacien!' The French never want really to use the word 'German' in connexion with Alsace. (The Germans are far more sentimental about the loss of their Eastern Territories (East Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania and Silesia) than they are about Alsace-Lorraine.)

16. Finally, it is worth noting that the French have always had a far more prescriptive and illiberal language policy when compared to the Germans. Native historians have always tended to be biased about the affiliation of Alsace. We need to remember, too, that language does not define nationality, contrary to what the French King Francois I proposed in the 16th century.

A notable link for German-speakers is www.elsass-lothringen.de —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.111.52 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 8 December 2004 (UTC)

Very interesting - how about incorporating some of this in the article? Point 5 in particular is an excellent point that surely needs including in the article. --Rollo 21:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I suppose that from outside you can talk of an "ethnic cleansing", although, here in Alsace, we certainly don't perceive it like that. And I must say that, although France had been awful for the recently incorporated regions like Brittany and Alsace, its politics nowadays concerning native languages are mostly comprehensive. In Alsace, tehre is an option at the Baccalauréat that is called "Culture et langue régionale" "Culture and regional language". Alsace is also the first region in term of local language speakers, and local language teachers. As for its dual language, since recently, all kids had to learn german during primary school (today it's english and german in a lot of schools). Also, I have to underline that, unlike most regions, Alsace has its own school decisions. Its politics in questions of educations are decided by the Alsace's Council: "Conseil régional d'Alsace".

87.88.140.110 12:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Anne-Caroline Sieffert (I have a German name, but I do not feel german at all, although I have a deep respect and admiration for German culture)

I completely agree with Anne-Caroline and would like to reiterate are point. My last name is Wehr (just like in Wehrmacht), a name which most French people can't pronounce. Yet first names in my family include Laurent, Jean-Louis and Alain, names which most Germans are unable to pronounce. My point is, the French first name German last name thing is very Alsatian. Point 13 doesn't make much sense to me. Lot of people in Alsace, including Anne-Caroline and I, have German last names (and so I suppose you could consider us culturally or historically Germanic or whatever) but do not identify as German. I personally have no problem considering myself French, despite my name. There's absolutely nothing "odd" about that. You can't say that Alsace is definitely French or German, but a lot of people in Alsace consider themselves fully French, including me (and rightly so). Axel 17:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AxelW (talk • contribs).

[edit] Elsaß non Elsass

There's no reason to use the controversial modernized spelling for Elsaß when citing the German name; it was spelt with the ß when the province was part of Germany. (It's particularly odd to use the ss spelling when mentioning the stamp overprint which very clearly uses the ß.) This isn't German Wikipedia, so we don't have to follow the whims of German governments... —Tkinias 09:21, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Except to say, Tkinias, regarding your (correct) assertion that this is not German Wikipedia) that ß is not a member of the English alphabet, and that Elsass is not a word in English at all. The whims are not just German, but also Austrian. Switzerland has never used the ß character. Elsass is a more useful spelling nowadays, especially given search facilities on the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.46.132.91 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 23 December 2004 (UTC)

Please log in and sign your comments; anon comments are not very helpful. I've fixed Strasbourg and added a note about the modernized spelling for Elsaß. Whether ß is part of English spelling or not is irrelevant when citing German names. —Tkinias 02:22, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] General complaints

Will the person who 1) cannot spell or write standard English properly, 2) cannot punctuate properly, and 3) doesn't know his facts, stop editing this article. Some editing comes from the US which no doubt explains it.

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.46.155.152 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 7 February 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Religious exception?

I have read that Alsace (and the northern part of Lorraine) is exempt from the 1905 French separation of church and state because it was part of the German Empire at that time. Instead, when it was retaken by France it continued to follow the Napoleonic Concordat of 1801, under which Catholic, Protestant and Jewish clergy are paid by the state.

Is this true today? If so, it should be added to the article. Funnyhat 03:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes it is. Rama 08:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article contains a link to Separation of church and state, which explains this in some detail (see "France" section). olivier 08:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] download size

When I load this site it starts to download quite a lot with no apparent reason to me. At least 10 MB, after that I halted it. So, what's up with that? --80.130.148.47 15:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music

Does anyone know anything about the traditional music (or classical music) indigenous to Alsace? A musician friend of mine is of Alsatian ancestry and is curious about it. I can find nothing online but a band called "Holatrio Hop'sasa" of Colmar but even their website is down. Thank you, Badagnani 01:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

===> In Alsace, the traditional music is influced by the East and Germany.

some representatives of the Alsatian music:

• Jean-Pierre ALBRECHT
• Roger SIFFER
• ...

You can have other information on [1]

Wsswfrench 13:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sauerkraut

'The gastronomic symbol of the region is undoubtedly Sauerkraut!

'The word "Sauerkraut" derives from the Alsatian "Sûrkrût", which means "sour cabbage"'

This statement is misleading. "Sauerkraut" is a High German word which means "sour cabbage." Indeed, it is a form a cuisine which is not unique to the Alsace region and as such I doubt that the High German term is "derived" from the given term in the Alsatian dialect. I would proprose the following to replace these two phrases:

'The gastronomic symbol of the region is undoubtedly Sauerkraut, or "Sûrkrût" in Alsatian, which means "sour cabbage."' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jav209 (talk • contribs) 05:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

> Alsatian is closest to Swiss German.

i am a bit surprised by this. i am from the palatinate in germany and the people always sounded quite like us and not like swiss. (in fact, i have extreme trouble to understand swiss german) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.76.29.2 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Go to Southern Alsace and you will see it´s true! Of course close to your region - Northern Alsace - you will find the dialect very similar to yours. But in that part of the region it is not even Alemannic as in most of it. It is Franconian (rheinfränkisch) like yours. - And there is a mixture zone til Strasbourg... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.102.174 (talk) 10:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC) - Didn´t have the time to sign...--134.176.67.100 18:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)Stephele

[edit] "Politics section"

I could not 'elp but to read zis wiz a mock French accent :) No disrespect to the autor or his contribution but I'll try to rewrite and consider the appropriateness (some bias?) chochem 10:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes please do so, this article has too many weasel words for my taste. I removed the "felt obliged" phrase. A summary of German/French language dominance after a war does not need redundant and emotionally charged wordings such as "Felt Obliged (to speak French)" - Why or how did they "feel obliged"? Or "Were forced to speak German" - in what way were they "Forced" to speak German. We're dealing with facts here, not opinions.

Only actual events, laws and actions have relevance here. An example such as the law passed by France after WWII limiting German to a % of content in Newspapers is relevant to such questions. Vague meaningless weasel words are not.Hvatum 08:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sounds like an advert.

Part of the first paragraph sounds like it might harken from a brochure. "Wrapped in history, Alsace to this day is a center for Europe, if not the center, and a tremendous spot for tourists. Its cosmopolitan background makes it a worthwhile place to visit." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gentlyfloatingabout (talk • contribs) 15:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Need help

Hey User:R9tgokunks

I just wanna warn you that Alsace is french, and it used to be some days a part of the German Empire... but there is quite a while, and since the Napoléonic wars, Alsacians are more attracted to France than to Germany.

I'm an Alsacian and I'm living in this land for ever, all my ancestor since the year 1512 are alsacian... so I know more than you about Alsace's History. So trust me, Alsace righfuly belongs to France.

I totaly agree that Alsace used to be a part of the German Empire but Alsacian don't feel and don't want to be german !!! That's all !!!!

Village's name are german, i agree, but there are thousands years old ; and in the article, you are speaking about actual alsacian and on this last point, i'm at odds with you beacause actual alsacian are totally agree with the fact to be a part of France !!! no-one there want to be german!!!

bye user:Paris75000 00:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Rightfully belongs? This is POV. Wikipedia is no place for original research. Add references for everything and if can't be references then it can't go in. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the above comment is very POV. But he is basically right. I'm also Alsatian and you guys simply don't understand the situation. The posted article provides information that does NOT reflect the reality of Alsace, because people fail to distinguish cultural, historical and political aspects of the question. Here's how I see it:

- Alsace's historical culture is Germanic. Please note that I use the word Germanic, not German. In French, the distinction is clear because the respective words are germanique and allemand. Lot of people here fail to grasp the nuance. Germanic relates to culture, German relates to the nation. Anyway, Alsace was culturally Germanic, as reflected by its gastronomy, its local language, a lot of its architecture, the names of villages and people... You will not find many people, in or out of Alsace, to disagree with this.

- Alsace is politically French. Here's why. Alsace has historically been populated by merchants, artisans and bourgeois, the people who were denied power by the aristocracy. There is no strong aristocratic tradition in Alsace. Thus, it flourished as a fairly independent state of the Holy Roman Empire. Louis XIV's efforts to impose customs were understandably rejected because the region had flourished through trade. Because of their situation, the Alsatians welcomed the fall of the monarchy 200 years later. Look at the military leaders they provided France under the revolution and Napoleon: Kléber, Lefèbvre, Kellerman... Thus, I would say that in terms of philosophical and political orientation, Alsace became closer to France. It's true that we have special legal status for quite a few things, but that doesn't change the fact that Alsace identifies more with the laws and political traditions of France than those of Germany.

So to answer the question of whether Alsace is "really" French or German, I would say that it is politically French, but has Germanic (NOT GERMAN) cultural roots. Let me add that the Germanic culture is waning and that just by dint of being a well-integrated French province for the last 60 years, all that remains of Germanic culture is historical. Alsatians today rarely consider themselves personally culturally Germanic.

I think the article should be made to reflect these ideas. Agree? Disagree? no signed User:AxelW

Well, I'm not at odds with you, I agree that Alsace's got a germanic past nevertheless, what made me upset what this : difference and User:R9tgokunks had got a biased view of what Alsace is or what to be : a actual french city with european ambition... and did not what to talk about on the appropriate page User talk:R9tgokunks section Alsace or on this page. So without talking, how do you what we expose our arguments? Sincerily. user:Paris75000 10:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Here are a few minor changes i've made to the culture section: - saying Alsace is historically part of the Holy Roman Empire makes no sense, one could just as well say that Alsace and France were both historically Frankish/Germanic, but the region developped its own identity and culture, the HRE is only a part of it. I feel the rest of the article makes this clear. - Alsatian is not really most similar to Swiss German - "More often assumed to be bilingual": not really, not more so than Bretagne or Corsica. I'm changing it to "sometimes" - rephrased other stuff in language paragraph - rewrote paragraph on German Axel 19:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I'm happy you two have come here. I've had to deal with this R9tgokunks for many weeks now. A bit of background information on this guy: according to his user page, he's an American guy from North Dakota, a state with a strong German heritage as you may know, so he's probably descending from German immigrants. On his user page he says that Bismarck is one of his idols. No comment! This guy has started a crusade to Germanize all articles related to formerly German cities or areas. Not just Alsace, but also Polish cities formerly German such as Wroclaw or Gdansk. The German nationalism of this guy is found not just in the Alsace article, but also in many articles of Alsatian cities. I had to revert his edits many times, but he usually reverts back to his Germanized versions after some time. I suggest you particularly pay attention to these articles: Strasbourg, Mulhouse and Wissembourg, which he's frequently trying to Germanize. I know he has Germanized many more articles, but I haven't had the time and interest in de-germanizing them. If you guys are up to it, here are some articles that would need de-germanizing: Eguisheim (the German name appears on top of the infobox as if it was official, the German name is also used inside the article instead of the official French name), Guevenatten (same), Lièpvre (he bolded the German name as if it was official), Lucelle (same), Neuf-Brisach (same + used the German name on top of the infobox), Ribeauvillé (same), Riquewihr (same), Saint-Hippolyte, Haut-Rhin (same), Altorf (implying that somehow the French name is a corrupted version of the German name), Haguenau (German name bolded and put on top of the infobox), Labaroche (German name bolded), Lauterbourg (German name bolded and put on top of infobox), Marmoutier (same), Obernai (same), Plobsheim (German name on top of infobox), Reichshoffen (German name bolded), Saales (German name bolded and put on top of infobox), Sarre-Union (German name bolded), Sélestat (same), Wœrth (same), Phalsbourg (German name bolded). Godefroy 00:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I find this discussion and conjecture behind his back distasteful. If you have problems with another editor, you should address him/her. If you are unable to remedy disagreements directly, Dispute Resolution should be sought. I have cleaned up the aforementioned Alsatian locality articles by debolding German names and removing them from infoboxes. I find the inclusion of the names relevant to the articles, however, considering the historical importance of Alsace to both France and Germany. Olessi 23:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've tried discussing things with this user before, but he's not open to reason. He's engaged in a Germanizing crusade, and has been blocked numerous times already: [2]. In fact, to be honest, I think this guy should be banned from Wikipedia for good, since all he seems to be doing here is pushing POV and starting edit wars. Now I see he has even set eyes on the Brussels article, trying to undermine the reality of a mainly French speaking city there, and presenting Brussels as an essentially Germanic (Dutch) city. Crazy, isn't it! Where will this stop? Godefroy 15:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If you guys want to express your opinion, I left a comment here: Talk:Brussels#Linguistic situation. Godefroy 15:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I must agree with Godefroy on this...

And although Alsace does have a germanic history, we feel mostly French. I think making an article on Alsace without asking for the opinion of Alsatian is really odd, even with Wiki policies on POVs.

And the other thing I wanted to add is about the link someone put at the end of the article. Elsass Frei and the FLNA are essentially right wing, with links with Alsace D'abord, an extremist politic party. I think that you should know that Alsace D'abord is a very little party, with a non-existent political weight. Alhtough THERE IS an autonomist streak in Alsace, it's very small, and a lot of autonomist having been put into deportation camps during WWII it had been extremely rare to find big organization wanting autonomy, even if it's clear that Alsace has a really strong regionalist streak, and is attached to its local particularisms.Anne-Caroline Sieffert 12:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Anne-caroline Sieffert

Paris75000??? Wàs fer e Elsass´r bisch denn Dü?? E "provincialisme-kompenséer-Elsass´r"? E Oschtbàhn(hoft)-Hansi vun de "Brigade Alsace-Lorraine" (Non! - En fait c´est Bld. de Strasbourg...)?? - Môssiö Bàrissfénfesiwezichtöisich? Vous ne savez pas ce que c´est? You arr lackingg "Germanicc" culturre sere?? "Alsacians are more attracted to France than to Germany"? "Alsacian don't feel and don't want to be german"??? Alsatians "are totally agree with the fact to be a part of France"?? !!! "no-one there want to be german"?? Well - did you ask them? Personally? - Every single one of them? Where are we to "consult" the results of your "sondage"? I do not think that simple "trust" will suffice! - "So trust me, Alsace righfuly belongs to France." - "Rightfully"?? - By what right? When has the referendum (finally) been made? I was not informed about that! - Ah, but you know the will of (all) your fellow countrymen - so you can do this referendum all by yourself here, can´t you?? Or you are the UN and the League of Nations and the International Tribunals in one person - so you can decide...? Well right! This really seems quite Parisian - 75000%!! Désolé - mais face à... such contributions I just cannot stay serious! Especially after I tried to convince Mr. R9tgokunks myself of better ways to stress French AND German ("germanique") elements in Alsace but another User has verWEHRt it to me!--91.34.99.37 (talk) 00:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC) Hein, M. AxelW? You are "also Alsatian"?? Really? Do you have any other proof than your obvious national complexes, you are showing off here all the time? We "guys simply don't understand the situation!". Oh yeah? - But you do?? Just three examples of your worthy wisdom:

1. "Alsatian is not really most similar to Swiss German" - No? What is it then?? That is simply n´importe quoi (nonsense)! You can read and check that the contrary is true everywhere luckily! Of course to be absolutely correct one has to say that the local Alsatian dialects mostly totally resemble those just on the other river bank of the Rhine - in Baden, Germany - apart from the extreme south of Alsace (on the Swiss border)! But as Swiss German is better known than the dialects in Germany, the comparison is all right!
2. "More often assumed to be bilingual": not really, not more so than Bretagne or Corsica!" - Of course it is! Everybody who has just a slight idea of the situation of the "langues régionales" of France knows that Alsatian/Francique mosellan(Lothringisch) (i.e. German from France) are the one still most wide spread and commonly actively spoken (in their respective region). Apart from the "support" by German and Swiss Media (which Breton and Corsican of course cannot get - not even from Italy or Wales) there is one simple clear reason for that: the 1870 "occupation" - more correctly: annexation (or maybe "liberation"?) by Germany that saved it (until 1919) as only region of nowadays France from the "école républicaine" - the 1882 organisation of the centralized education system - generalising the French-speaking assimilation in all other "régions allophones" (also Occitania, Northern Catalonia and -Basque Country...)! This effect could not even be entirely reversed by the Nazi-annexation, which broke the neck of the Alsatian cultural resistance (by complex of guilt)!
3. "Laurent, Jean-Louis and Alain, names which most Germans are unable to pronounce..." - You think I cannot pronounce "Laurent", "Jean-Louis" or "Alain"?? Or you believe I was not able to say them properly before I came to Strasbourg?? That´s ridiculous!! Man soll nicht einfach von sich auf andere schließen, mein Lieber! - Only because (monolingual) French are virtually unable to pronounce any other language correctly than French, this does not mean that speakers of other languages have the same handicap!

"The posted article provides information that does NOT reflect the reality of Alsace..."

- neither do your contributions! -

"..., because people fail to distinguish cultural, historical and political aspects of the question."

- Exactly as you with your misuse of the word "Germanic" - which should in fact be "germanique" - as you apply a French meaning. And although you use a French word this keeps you from making the (above) necessary distinctions!

"Here's how I see it:"

- Who wants to know??

"I think the article should be made to reflect these ideas. Agree? Disagree?"

Disagree, mon vieux! - Pas d´acc´!! If I look at all the contributions of the "shocked French" - and especially the Alsatians (present) (with a few exceptions by the only lady) - I get the impression it might be better to leave the editing to "neutral" people - even if there may be some unrealistic "Germany-sympathizers" among them ( - vandalism will be corrected anyway!). Since I read this discussion I wonder if "making an article on Alsace without asking for the opinion of Alsatian" isn´t "really odd" (although of course nobody before intended to do so!) but that it might in fact help the "Wiki policies on POVs"! By the way Mme. Sieffert: I really wonder about your references again! To state that "Elsass Frei" and the FLNA are "essentially right wing" maybe right - if right wing means anti-republican in a "Jacobin sense" of way. Right wing in other senses like antisemitic or xenophobic should be proven and treated much more carefully, as this is a common (not only in Alsace) way of trying to harm political foes by destroying their reputation! I do not know it for sure but I seriously doubt your said "links with Alsace D'abord"! Alsace D'abord is xenophobic (proof: the "piggy soup" served to poor people by their "welfare organisation" "Solidarité Alsacienne") - but it is not autonomist or separatist, not even regionalist (although they say so)! It is a regional turnoff of the FN, populist, appealing to Alsatian complexes of feeling (nationally) neglected or exploited but is in fact quite national and legalist. Robert Spieler ("Gambler" in German(/Alsatian)), the founder-party chief mainly thinks of ways to enter political istitutions - "night-and-fog-" or "hit-and-run"-actions are not his cup of tea. The "Elsass Frei"-graffitti everywhere can most probably not be from anybody standing on the grounds of the party´s programm! And the voters obviously prefer the national(ist) original than the regional "fake"! - They even prefer a President Sarkozy who seems to promise them the same things as "the original"...--134.176.67.239 19:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Stephele

Stephele- a few things 1. you will stop calling me or suggesting that I'm some sort of a Jacobin, it's insulting and absurd 2. I'm going to say this one last time: i'm not some sort of close-minded French nationalist. I'm done trying to convince you of this, but just consider the fact that I wouldn't be contributing to this site in English if I were one of those "monolingual ethnocentric French Jacobins" (or whatever you call them). And I'm not leading a crusade against Germany. 3. You should know that I'm not getting emotionally involved in these posts, this is not wishful thinking, hypothesizing or saying what could have been. I'm just saying thigs the way they are.. 4. I'm really touched that you took the time to respond to every single sentence in my post. I, unfortunately, will not do the same. And it's not that the opportunity to satire your contributions is lacking (1870 = liberation??? you can't be serious...)

Anyway, I don't think I have any fundamental disagreements with you, although your confrontational attitude may make it seem like it. I don't understand or care to understand the distinction between Germanic or Germanique. All I know is that Alsace has been influenced in many respects by the country to its East (Germany) and the regions that were there before Germany existed as a country. My main point was that Germany was not a unified country before 1870. So I think i would be more accurate to call Alsace germanic/ique than German. In the same way, parts of Belgium and Italy (Val d'Aoste) have been impacted by the French cultural influence. And yes, for many things, Alsace is more similar to Baden than to Paris. And there's obviously nothing wrong with that.

However (and this is a big however), Alsace has become very French just because it has been a region francaise for the last 60 years. It has been bound by the French constitution, French laws... been French politically. I'm not judging. I'm not saying this is either good or bad, legitimate or not. But that's the way it is. And because France's political model is indeed centralized (call it Jacobin if you want...), republican and non-federal, Alsace has been strongly impacted by it. So just because we eat flammekueche and kougloff, prefer beer and white wine to red, that doesn't mean we're not French. The fact is that a Strasbourgeois would feel more at ease living in Paris, Lille or Bordeaux than somewhere in Western Germany. 60 years of being a French region has made us French, without suppressing our regional identity.

As for the language, I'm no specialist of Alsatian (and I do wish I spoke it better). All I know is that if you tell the average Alsatian that he's speaking German, he'll tell you you're wrong and probably tell you to go to hell. Here's why: the word German is associated to the country Germany, and Germany as a country, a political entity, has never been that popular in Alsace. (Neither has France, but that's a different matter...). Now i'm not denying that in its written form, Alsatian is German. But you Stephele, who pretends to be so concerned with regional identity, should accept the fact that Alsatian is its own dialect. This is not because it is linguistically more different than any other German dialect, but because it's not in Germany.

güets nëies johr

195.132.192.68 (talk) 11:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Mmh (surprised) - jo, mèrci vielmols! Un e glecklich´s Nejs zeruck! Aww'r - wer bisch? You did not sign properly and got me puzzled here! Are there two AxelW around?

I am glad to hear, how you understand the term Jacobin - so we are at least d'accord on this! This does not mean that I use it intently in order to insult you!! But it simply is a formula, well known in France, that describes shortly what I see as a problem - and shows at the same time that there are French who do not appreciate (as you yourself it seems) certain forms of (centralized "republican") nationalism. Even if - as everything - it is relative: Some may call others Jacobin - and be called like that at the same time by a third one. There are always some people more Jacobin than others... In the paragraphe on the "right wing - anti-republican (in a "Jacobin sense" of way)"-context I rather used it in a definition-way. If this did not get clear, then I will state here, that in this case I prefer the "Jacobins" over the "right wingers" - at least they are republicans. The problem is (I know that from own observation) when leftist republicans define alone who is right wing - and who is anti-republican. In any case this was not about the person who had seen (unproven) links between the different kinds of right wing-groups in Alsace.

On the "Germanic/germanique"-matter. I know why you used this term - I use it myself - when speaking French. I prefer to use "germanophone" and "dialecte de l´allemand", though - and most people in Alsace, at least those who know what I am talking about, do not protest. But I intend to explain that more precisely in another answer for this talk page to the contribution on that topic somewhere above. It is a central point! I already did answer to this though in the talk page on Strasbourg. Everyone can inform him- or herself there already about the problem of this way of speaking. (You did it seems - if you are the person I have to believe...?) As is correctly explained in the article on the topic, Alsatian (apart from Northern (Outre Forêt) and "Bossue"- Alsatian) is "a" (precisely another group of) dialect of the Alemanic (Upper German) group and thus today (the division between written Upper and Lower German lost) a dialect of the official German language and historically one of the West Germanic languages that contributed to the forming of the modern German language. National boundaries - or feelings - have nothing to do with these facts. When it comes to feelings - I know quite some Alsatians who fight for bilinguality in their region, and - being totally aware of the feelings of many (fellow) Alsatians towards Germany - they get upset when for the thousandth time they find the facts denied - with the well known intentions behind!

So I am not sure if we really have a common basis here but I think I do accept the fact that Alsatian is its own dialect - especially in the sense of "not because it is linguistically more different than any other German dialect" and do concede that it is special "because it's not in Germany". But this - and even the detachment from the official language it developed after WWII - does not stop it from being a form of the German language - even if this may be "painful" for some Alsatians! "German" is not defined by national borders - even if there are Austrians who would like their language to be called "Austrian". This has absolutely no linguistical foundations and (so) they are qualified by own fellow countrymen as "Spinner". Germanic in any case is too general as label (espacially in English) and I would like to point out the "West Germanic" from the Article Alsatian which is correct because it is about a period when today´s languages were still in development and when thus the different forms were not clearly defined and grouped yet whereas "West" clearly limits the area (and languages) refered to. Today "West Germanic" roughly means Dutch and German!

I am also quite aware of the political integration of todays Alsace in France - my comment on the success of Sarkozy (and the votes he won "back" from the FN) may have made that clear. I even am aware of the pre-1870 political integration of Alsace in France (taking actively part in the French Revolution and everything that followed) - and its growing distance towards its "mother land" - exactly for political reasons mainly. So what I wrote on 1870/71 was, of course, provocative (that´s why I put the ""). But the label "liberation" has a need for such treatment as a comparison 1871 - 1919 may show. Why 1870 truly was a liberation (even if France became a republic again through that war - and poor Alsace became a part of the German "neo"feudal prison) gets clear through the context - Alsace became a kind of cultural reserve among French regions (from the école républicaine). - Something those nationalist têtes brulées, like Pierre Bucher (founder of the Strasbourg Alsatian Museum), the people who left us all these chauvinist "idées reçues" of "relentless germanization" of the region, just could not think of! That does not mean that I doubt that in a national sense the majority of the population prefered the "liberation" of 1918 (until 1919!).

So I would never say that "just because we eat flammekueche and kougloff, prefer beer and white wine to red means we're not French". - That would be either primitively nationalist (from a German point of view) - or it would be (ethnocentrically) provincially stupid ("parisot") ( - from a French point of view). - It would not, though, be Jacobin (as it would mean to exclude a part of the nation and not include by force)! What I really do have a problem with though, are sentences like this one: a Strasbourgeois would feel more at ease living in Paris, Lille or Bordeaux than somewhere in Western Germany. Once more: don´t gerneralize!! (Anyway: how could you live "at ease" in Paris?? :-) ) There are many Alsatians living in Stuttgart (bi de echte Schwowe!!), in Mannheim-Heidelberg area and around Frankfurt-Rhein/Main ( - meaning: they do not take the car to go home every evening after work)! - Did you ask a few?? Ask that cook in Heidelberg if he wouldn´t prefer Paris. Probably he will go: "Parii? Ah non! C´est ouf, Paris!" Or try some Alsatian in Stuttgart, tell him he could go to Bordeaux, the Atlantic close by, huge waves, he could go surfing half a year - and then the wine! - Some might wanna go - and the others: "Jo, ouais... - mais c´est à l´autre bout du monde!" ;-)--134.176.67.84 (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Stephele

To Stephele : I was reading your comments here and there and i was feeling kinda hurt. I love France, its history, its regions, its language... is it a bad thing to you ?? Since germans are kinda complexés by their national identity, are we supposed to be too ?? Praising federalism would be better than being a jacobin ? France and Germany are two different countries, both systems have their advantages and their drawbacks. France is a centralized country and wherever you are on the territory of the République, you are equal to any other French. I have been to Alsace several times and i felt this germanic influence and i just loved Alsace for that. Each times I'm travelling across France I'm so amazed to see that France is so diverse but at the same time you can see that people have the same background and are attached to ce je ne sais quoi which makes France so wonderful. Are you waiting us to write that Alsace belongs to Germany ??? Are you waiting us to condemn France jacobinism, this ideal which wants to make French people equal throughout the country ?? I have the feeling that France managed what no other country did. To make one nations out of rich diverse beautiful and so different regions. And i have the feeling that the vast majority throughout France feels French first now. okay I'm patriotic and it can be a good reason for you to look down upon me. So I'm sorry to be so proud of my country, I'm sorry to love so much France, I'm sorry to feel an undescrible chill anytime i hear La Marseillaie, I'm sorry to spend wonderful 14 juillets, I'm sorry to be amazed by the beauty and the little complexities of the French language, I'm sorry to be from a country which has so much to offer.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoonaathaanFR (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Salut JoonaathaanFR! You felt hurt by my contributions - c'est triste! - But I won't excuse! I will not try to explain to you what I wrote neither, or to smoothen it for you because - I am afraid - you will not understand it again. (Strange though, that you write this here, where for the first time there was a slight trace of understanding between me and the person who made me chose this confrontational way!) I am not acting out of own (German) complexes here - and all this is not about Germans' complexes with their national identity. On the contrary: je décomplèxe là... à fond plutot! All this is about Alsatians' complexes (and not only national ones) - so French' complexes! - And it is about a French (national) problem in the end, as Alsace is not the only French region sharing the same problem. I did not write a single line indicating that I believe that Alsace is no matter of the French nation - but only the German one. So your first "suspicious" question can only be based on prejudice nourished by your simple (national) categories. To your second question: Yes of course, if you want me to accept you as a real republican, as a democrat, then I expect you to condemn jacobinism (in the way it is usually understood in France - even by many of its supporters)! In order to get this point clear, look at what I said on unity an uniformity at the bottom of this talk page. Or you could read (if you read German) what I wrote on France as a "nation of (political) will" (as Switzerland) in the talk on Mulhouse (de:Diskussion:Mülhausen). In this debate I only added another ("the other") pespective - one that was otherwise hidden or censored by views controlled by Alsatian complexes (and not "Alsatian spirit" ("geistiges Elsässertum", René Schickele) - of which they are the contrary). Je crains que tout ceci ne te rendra pas plus supportable ce que j'ai écrit. I, on the contrary, can support a lot of what you wrote! "I love France, its history ( - well partly at least - apart from when they ransacked other countries - or their regions...), its regions, its language...; France and Germany [...] both [...] have their advantages and their drawbacks. France is a centralized country and wherever you are [in] the République, you are equal to any other French. i felt this "germanic" (should be "German" here - "germanic" is too vague; "germanique" is a French word...) influence and i just loved Alsace for that. travelling across France I'm so amazed to see that France is so diverse [with different] people [sharing] the same background - [making] France so wonderful." But if you look at other countries than you see that others did not have to be centralist in order to get the same thing! "France managed what no other country did" - did she??? - Make "one nation out of rich diverse beautiful and so different regions". Yes, and you think that this was only possible by centralism - jacobinism?? Apart from the fact that many French won't agree, and that other countries reached that equality doing without, what you seem to call jacobinism is only the "bright side" of it, the "ideal", the "romantic version". The dark reality is that jacobinists are convinced that this diversity must vanish in order to assure the nations lasting unity! And this is the whole problem!

So I could say, showing off my German complexes concerning national feelings, that your "feeling sorry" for your national feelings is a good start for the better - but in fact I learned a lot about national feelings in France, to better understand, to tolerate and even partly respect them!, and so - as German(s') complexes are not the point here - I won't do that. Mais je constate qu'ils t'ont encore empeché de comprendre le problème! As often - usually unluckily - national feelings hindered understanding...--82.231.135.38 (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Stephele

I noticed the main problem in here is that most of you guys keep talking about what's going on in other brains than theirs. You simply can't say that Alsatians in general think so or do so, since there are so many different issues and so many different sights, especially in cross-bordering countries. IF you really wanna promote your idea, please do it the right way, be starting the sentence with something like "some people think that" and finishing it whith a nice link to your bibliography where interested people might find further informations. You know, I live there too, and very little of what you are fighting about makes sense to me; and when I'm thinking about turkish friends of mine, who live in the neighbourhood, it makes me smile... --qwerkus, 03/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.205.221 (talk) 11:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:AlsLogo.png

Image:AlsLogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 17:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why isn't this page Protected?

Why isn't this page protected, how can it be? 209.244.42.97 and others like him/her have been vandalizing the page and turning Alsace into some sort of oppressed German province that is aching for freedom when it is far from that. 209.244.42.97 has been adding all sorts of made up statistics (Like 45 percent speak German when it really is 25 percent who speak German as a first or second language) There are many other things such as his choice of words that are ruining this article. Aux armes Alsaciens! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LouisClaude (talk • contribs).

If you want to have the article protected, you can make a request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Camaron1 | Chris 15:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language section

The language section deserves a weasel tag and needs to be re-written. some sentences don't make any sense. "overwhelming presence of french media"? Alsace is part of France, so it´s normal for French media to be present there, I don't see anything overwhelming about that. I'll get down to editing when I have some time.Axel 18:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

No, please don´t! Laisse béton! As you show here - and made cristal clear in your contributions in the discussion on Strasbourg - you just do not get the point! - As you say: you "don't see anything overwhelming about that" - although it is obvious!! The sentence is absolutely correct - and makes a lot of sense... - in its context: the Alsatian dialect and culture (and the typical bilinguality) are on decline - the overwhelming - as well - presence of French in the media - as presence of French media as opposed to (German- (and dialect-) speaking) Swiss and German media - furthers this trend. I am not surprised that many French are unable to understand the problem but your show of this strange ignorance here is quite impressing though! "Alsace is part of France, so it´s normal for French media to be present there...!" - Well, of course, nobody could deny that! You just have to understand the importance of the word "overwhelming" in that place! There is a difference between "presence" and "overwhelming presence" (even if some peolpe cannot see it)! In France there may - linguistically - be no difference, but in most democratic countries, whenever you have a region where more than half (most times even far less) of the population speak another (mother-)language than the official (majority) language of this country, then it would be seen as normal that the media in that area are in that special language at an according proportion. Of course this is different in France (where French (language) is seen as the only "normal" thing - the norm) but that fact does not change the matter. The only editing truthfully allowed would be to add a "(-speaking)" to "French" in the phrase! Try that kind of intellectual censorship in the French(speaking) Wikipedia - I do not know if you will get through there - but let other people (in other languages) have their own perspective on the subject! --134.176.67.248 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)Stephele

I noticed the "hot" discussions in here, which just fits into a description of this country: the beeing french/beeing german or speaking french/speaking german IS a problem around here, often coupled to weired family history, so that is often ends in flaming debates. I just think that - if I recall it correctly - there is an article about language policy in France where this discussion should take place, and not in a descriptive article about Alsace. What we need here are facts&numbers so that someone can easily walk through it. ---qwerkus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.205.221 (talk) 11:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of notable Alsatians (2)

I've completely rewritten that list, which had been full of people who were not born in Alsace (Pflimlin, Gutenberg...) or not famous enough yet (Voeckler - what did he really win?), or shere hoaxes (several names towards the end of the list). I've also corrected several missspellings and added Noble Prize winners (Bethe, Lehn), world-famous artists (Marceau, Münch, Schongauer...) and some important scientists (the Friedels, Appell) Wikipeople seem only to give a fart about. Pity it took so long i stumbled across this disgrace ! Yours, RCS 17:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work! - But... Of course you are right about Gutenberg (although he still can be considered as one of the greatest personalities linked to the region) but just not to be born in the place does not make "non-Alsatians" out of everyone! I think nobody who knows Alsace would agree that Pierre Pflimlin is not Alsatian only because he was born in inner France! I could not find the explanation for this in Wikipedia (not even the French-speaking one) yet, but I suppose he was from a pro-French family that had opted for France in 1871. Could be a sheer coincidence though - wikipedia.de states that his father still owned the family textile works in Mulhouse... In any case he spent a big part of his youth there, started his career in the region, was mayor of Strasbourg ("premier maire catholique de Strasbourg de 1959 à 1983") and as president of EP always was regarded as a representative of its base city and region. He was Alsatian bilingual (French-German) and I suppose he spoke regional German as well - Catherine Trautmann being the first mayor of Strasbourg not speaking German. --134.176.67.248 13:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)Stephele

[edit] Loyalties

In view of the German-French historical mix, I've always wondered about the national loyalties of the Alsatians in the first half of the 20th century. I notice the present article says that after WWI, "Alsatians were considered by the French public at large as fellow Frenchmen liberated from German rule," which seems to imply that the Alsatians themselves may have had a different view. Were there pro-French and pro-German factions during the interwar period, or before WWI? If so, what socio-economic, cultural or religious patterns did they reflect? Sca 18:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political bias II

As was correctly said above the "two sisters" (i.e. "Elsass-Lothringen" - Alsace and Moselle) have immense potency as nationalist symbols on both sides of the border, and both sides try to paint the regions as "really French" or "really German", when in fact they were neither for most of the(ir) history, because nationalism hadn't been invented yet (Tkinias 14:09, 22 Nov 2004). Many readers and users have since objected on this talk page against this "painting as really German" of Alsace in this article - most of the time "painting it as really French" in a way much worse than normally can be found in the article! The biggest protest though was motivated by "paintings" not "normal" - mainly by User:R9tgokunks. I myself tried to take some positive influence on such behaviour in the debate about Strasbourg - only to be accused of giving wrong information and trying to nationalize the image in an anti-French way myself - despite the very clear verifiable information I gave! Despite the absurdity of these attacks (I am used to that kind of ideas about the place - as I know the region itself!) I was a bit shocked, when I came here and saw that there was a whole group of similar people working in the same direction!

After having "fallen victim to it" myself it seems important to me to react to this intense "WEHRmacht"-activity here! Wehrmacht literally means "defense - power". We all know that the real Wehrmacht did slightly exceed this job. M. Wehr, who brought up this comparison and symbolism (himself), seems to see himself as a kind of Wehrmacht for the "real, actual - i.e. French Alsace". Together with some fellow French and Alsatians a real (Frank-)Reichswehr could be put to work here! Their German - oh pardon! - Germanic family names do not keep the combatants from feeling French (why should they???). This makes them "real Alsatians" - so they try to make believe! What we would need here though is no "Wehr" (no, no - not German at all!) but (if it is up to Alsatian names) a "Schlagdenhauffen" ( - français: "tape le tas" - "beat the heap" - ...and beat the crap out of it!! - metaphorically speaking of course!) Yes - that's a real Alsatian name! - Alsatian meaning: it can be found in Alsace - less in Germany. Linguistically it is German though! "Schlag den Haufen"! In Alsatian it would be "Schlaa de Hüffe". Unluckily there is no Alsatian of that kind to be seen!

In order to help preventing that any of this biased "information" (of any side and kind) finds its way into the article I will try to analyse and answer the whole list of the most important points and thus update them in the debate.

User:Paris75000 got active because of this R9tgokunks-sentence: "It has changed hands between France and Germany many many times and many still feel that it rightfully belongs to Germany." But what is wrong with this sentence? - Nothing in fact - at least not the "facts". It did "change hands [...] many many times" and there are "many" who "still feel that it rightfully belongs to Germany". The problem is that the word "many" is very relative in this case as these "many" are a small minority - worldwide - and (supposedly, or most probably) in Alsace, probably extremely insignificant in France (apart from Alsace) and even in Germany without importance! And the times of "changing hands" can be (exactly) counted on one hand! So there is nothing to say against this sentence apart that it is as well for its informational value as well for style absolutely unworthy of an encyclopedia!

Another step was the quarrel (edit war) about (or between) these two sentences:

1. "Although it was a German-speaking region during certain periods of its history, most Alsatians today only speak French."
2. "Although traditionally it was a German-speaking region, most Alsatians today mainly speak French."

...the first one being enforced by the "Alsatian fraction", the second one by the "pro-German" side. I feel slightly uncomfortable to say it that clearly, but the first sentence contains easily recognisable nonsense and tendency whereas the second is undeniably correct and simply true!

"every Alsatians today speak French ; there is about 25% of the local population who are able to speak as a second language Alsatian or German."

There are in fact very few people who speak Alsatian as a "second language" - as it is a dialect and by consequence mainly learnt as mother tongue as opposed to language courses. So to be accurate Alsatian in tis majority of cases would have to be qualified as first language and French as second.

Discussion:

1. Look at the names of all the towns in Alsace.... ilkirch:German....Erstein: German....Reichshoffen:German....Wertzenau:German...Hochfelden:German....and so forth...

... still in work!--91.34.109.66 (talk) 00:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Stephele

Your ranting is getting really old, as are your weak attempts at puns on my name. What you fail to understand (among many other things it seems), is that this is an encyclopedic article, meaning that its role is to say what is, not what could have been, what should have been, what should rightfully be. Alsace is French, not "really French" or anything, just French like the other 21 regions. It has its own regional specificities (culture, architecture, gastronomy...) just like many other regions. And I don't think many Alsatians would disagree with that. Axel 12:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I don´t "rant", d´abord and the "puns" at your name - you started that! Si ça te plait pas, arrête de pleurnicher et vas te plaindre pour vandalisme. C´est évident qui de nous deux jusque là a été moins respectueux de la "Wikiquette". And then talking about reality (what is...): I think it is getting quite clear by now who of us says "what is" and who is just spreading his ignorance (or lack of contact with reality). As I stressed before you did not even realize that I never said anything different from "Alsace is French". I just said it is German-speaking (and it is like that to a bigger extent (i.e.%) than any other French region is other-than-French-speaking). And that is a reality. - One you do not know! - As an Alsatian! Mais attends - j´ai pas fini! Les "réalités" concernant l´Alsace, il y en aura davantage!

"Rightfully" ou "really French" par contre (il semblerait qu´il faut le rappeler!) - that´s not from me! Ça vient de tes cops! You know very well, that "really French" or "just French" simply does not matter! The question is what it implies! - And for you it does imply a lot it seems - a lot of "equality"... The strange thing is that so many "egalitarians" understand uniformity when they talk about unity! I don´t know you - so I don´t know what "happened to you", how you came to believe the things you say ( - if you do - not everybody who says them believes them!). I only know that everything you stated above is the product of Jacobinist brainwash. So I would really prefer that you stop trying to tell "what is" - especially if you are not able to give a single true example or reference! And no cynicism like your media-comment above! Somebody used the term "ethnic cleansing" above. So talking about "Bosnia" in the article on that topic you are not allowed to remind of the "pre-cleansing-situation"?? If I understand you right, something like "the international community tried to keep up a certain degree of multiethnic Bosnia" is forbidden ("what is, not what could have been, what should have been") - Bosnia is ethnically cleansed?? Of course we all know that there is no ethnic cleansing (of that kind) going on in France!! In France it is not about the bearers of the ethnic criteria - it is about the criteria only. But that is a different thing! And French (language) is above that anyway (it is non-ethnic it seems)! In the German(-speaking) Wikipedia we had the visit of some strange guy in the debate on Catalonia telling us that we ought to be very careful about the (northern) French part - and that a language does not have rights (meaning it is people who have the rights...). I suppose this guy was French... Then, in order to understand what he meant, you need to know some more stories about France´s langues régionales: At one of the numerous occasions when French politicians made a stance (posture morale...) in favor of Quebec French and the right of the French-speaking "Canadiens" to their own language there were some Bretons present. So they suddenly felt the urge to speak up: "Ouais, nous aussi... we want our language(es) respected and protected!" - And the answer? - "Pourquoi? Qui est-ce qui vous empeche de parler le Français, vous!?" (Who stops you from speaking... French? (!)) In any other country this would be a joke - in France it is (bitterly) serious!! Stating that the language in quite some of the 21 regions is other than French (and clearly say what it is) - traditionally and (up to now) mostly still living - means adding important facts. Voilà tout!--134.176.5.64 (talk) 20:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)Stephele

You are completely delusional if you think that "Alsace = german-speaking" is reality. If I understand your tenuous and convoluted argment correctly, you claim that Alsatian = German and that Alsatian is wide-spread in Alsace, making German one of the languages of Alsace today. So based on two clearly flawed premises, you come up with an absurd conclusion, which you attempt to corroborate with the obvious fact that Alsace is more German speaking than other French regions are foreign-language-speaking. Thank you for enlightening us, but that doesn't make German one of the current languages of Alsace. You then presume to call me detached from reality. Mon cher, la réalité dont tu parles, je n'ai qu'à sortir de ma porte pour la côtoyer. Perhaps you're the one who should take some time to familiarize yourself with Alsace. I would recommend less Wikipedia, more real world. Quant aux jeux de mots sur mon nom... les blagues les plus courtes sont les meilleures. But clearly, you enjoy making a fool of yourself on Wikipedia talk pages, so rant on. Axel 16:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah bon?: "La réalité dont tu parles, je n'ai qu'à sortir de ma porte pour la côtoyer." - Mais fais-le donc!! Pourquoi ne l'as tu jamais fait alors? Why did you never step out of your door and try to meet this reality?? (In the sense of aller à son encontre, la rencontrer - not just pass it by! Don´t "côtoye" - be a part of it!) Eyes and ears open!! I am afraid it would not help you - but just try! Propabably you will never understand that if a country (even a "democratic" one) does not publicly use a language as "official" it can simply mean, that it does not respect the rights of its citizens - and not that the language is not spoken on its territory! And there! you made another un-French (and unluckily very French at the same time) gaffe: Breton and Corsican are absolutely no "foreign languages" - they are spoken exclusively in France!! The fact that the others, Occitan, Basque, Catalan, Flemish and Arpitan are spoken abroad - and are sometimes even official!! - does not make them "foreign" neither!! They are regional languages - and officially called like that in France. As I proved to you in my detailed answer on "Strasbourg" this is also the case for German with its dialectal forms Alsatian and "Mosellan". I suppose this won't change your attitude and behaviour but as I told you before repeating the same errors over and over again does not make them right. I am sure that I could give you thousands of proofs for you errors (or blindness) without any effect of reason but others at least will easily be able to see who is right! Car je n'ai que faire de tes conseils - I did not avoid a big part of the place when I "familiarized"!! I already told you that my "familiarizing" even taught me Alsatian! But the best liars (like in politics) are of course the ones who simply ignore the arguments and proofs given by their opponents... And - not because it is a "short joke" but because it is so sadly true - the bigger fool is for sure the one who does not even know what is going on in front of his own door!

Please note that some vandal took away a part of my last answer! (Je crains que non, mais peut-être que c'est pour ça que tu piges que dalle...)--81.56.104.13 (talk) 18:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC) Stephele