Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha
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This article has been selected for Version 0.7. This Socsci article has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale. |
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The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Miranda, LivelyIvy1908, 39aka94, Knicksfan4ever This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute. |
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[edit] Vandals
There will be a flood of vandals who will hit this article in the next couple of days (whether they be members, candidates, aspirants, etc.). Whichever the case, please revert the vandalism, deletions, etc. because Wikipedia is not censored. miranda 20:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- Go figure. I will check it as often as I can. It's looking good so farKnicksfan4ever 14:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Is this article protected, like some others, where one would have to long in (at least) to edit? BTW.....I am really exicted! Hi Soror Knicksfan!!LivelyIvy1908 20:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Hey Soror Lively!!! Just purchased a new white (well more like cream lol) suit for the celebrations in DC next weekend! I'm so excited. Hopefully the vandals won't get too bad, with all of us checking we should be able to revert a lot of it. Miranda, you never answered my questions: How long does it usually take for an article to get featured and how can we help? Cheers Knicksfan4ever 15:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- No. Vandalism hasn't gotten bad, yet. When vandalism has gotten so bad, the article will be protected. miranda 22:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Is this article protected, like some others, where one would have to long in (at least) to edit? BTW.....I am really exicted! Hi Soror Knicksfan!!LivelyIvy1908 20:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] AKA 24th International President
Miranda,
Should the quote from the AKA's 24th International President be from Eva Evans and not Linda Evans? Also, the first sentence under the PIMS section stays that "PIMS started under Linda Evans administration" and again should the President name be Eva Evans? Thanks. HistoricDST 19:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I corrected this. miranda 01:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Delta Airlines
Has anyone heard about Delta Airlines creating a plane for our 100 Year anniversary? I was sent this photo [ http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/knicksfan1/DeltaPinkPlane.jpg] and the following e-mail: 100 Years and WE ARE READY! - AKA PLANE!!!!!!
I would definitely say that Delta Airlines will be supporting the lovely ladies of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Inc.
As we prepare for our Centennial Celebration marking our 100th birthday, Alpha Kappa Alpha is being recognized by many from the private and public sectors of many communities.
Here is just one example of AKA being recognized by Delta Airlines. Hats off to my employer for recognizing and supporting Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Inc.
Please feel free to pass this on and share with others who are supportive of our success.
Sincerely, Soror R. A.
If anyone can find the article about this, I think it would be great to add to the main page. I've been looking but have yet to find anything. Thanks Knicksfan4ever 18:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Soror, I received and e-mail stating that the plane in the picture was heavily photo shopped. I can kinda tell when looking at the crest. Here is the e-mail I got through my UG Alumna List serve. It is very cute I must say. Also Soror Have a Happy 1.9.08 (today's date)!!!!
Message: Sorors, This is the plane my husband and I created for our website to advertise our Boule Airfare specials from Dallas and Houston (yes, it was a Delta plane first). You can see the original pictures at www.ctgpresents. com . I hope ya’ll didn’t think the Corporate office would spend thousands of dollars to have a plane wrapped just for our Centennial….LOL .. I thought it was cute! End Message
.LivelyIvy1908 20:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
No, I won't be able too. I am trying to save money for Boule. Have fun!! E-mail me to tell me about it!LivelyIvy1908 17:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sorry...
Due to the FA nom. not being closed, yet, as well as time concerns. I don't know if this article can possibly make it on the 15th. miranda 10:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] disambiguation
The following need disambig: fellowship incorporated Pillsbury Randomblue (talk) 20:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Done thanks. miranda 23:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Barbie doll
This is too much detail. If monies from selling the doll were going to education, it would be more noteworthy.--Parkwells (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Would it be too much detail if it stated domething along the lines of: AKA is the first Sorority to recieve a Barbie doll in its honor. Mattel is creating a doll to commerate this milestone.LivelyIvy1908 18:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sarah Meriweather Nutter
On the talk page for Founder Nutter, I mentioned that her name is spelled incorrectly. On her article Meriweather is missing the 'a' so it appears Meriwether. I do not know who to change it, so I was letting some over on the page know.LivelyIvy1908 18:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ivy, in the AKA book (the new one), it says "Meriwether" and other sources say "Meriweather". I added a note to the page which said that her birth name could be spelled either way. miranda 18:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks.LivelyIvy1908 03:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] AKA and Colorisim
Not a word is mentioned about their role in discriminating against darker skin women by using the brown paper bag test (in part) to determine who could become a member... what’s with that? This group was notorious in the black community for using such discriminatory practices so it’s really strange that it’s not even mentioned. This was also a reason why Delta Sigma Theta was founded because some AKA members did not like what they were doing to darker skinned women. I know the AKA members (and black sororities & frats as a whole) would like to pretend it never happened and talk about all the warm and fuzzy saving the world and sisterhood type of stuff but they really use some discriminatory practices in the past that should be discussed. Its a good way of showing how the organization has evolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.214.21 (talk) 14:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Although some instances may have happened, we need reliable sources to back up the claim. miranda 18:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
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- It may be true that some chapters did show favoritism towards lighter skinned women, however, it was not a practice of the sorority as a whole. Our founders were an array of different shades, as well as the incorporaters, charter members, etc. The whole light skin/dark skin thing is nothing more than a myth and IMHO should not be addressed in this article.Knicksfan4ever 18:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Not to ruffle any feathers, but the Delta founders were AKAs so their skin tone had nothing to do with them leaving AKA. If that were the case they would not have been chosen in the beginning. As my Soror KnicksFan stated, that may have been practiced at some chapters, but the Sorority as a whole has not ever participated in such practices. That is just like a company hiring someone. That company may have a policy against sexual harassament. If a couple of people at one location of this said company does something in appropriate that does not mean the entire company is a party to said activities.LivelyIvy1908 03:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
“Although some instances may have happened, we need reliable sources to back up the claim”.
You have a starting point because you seem to know “instances may have happened”. Well, all I am saying is to talk about them at some point in the article. Actually I have a lot more to say:
I see the road your about to go down. My advice is: Dont do it! Dont try to defend something that is indefensible such as colorism because you only are going to look bad and doing so and so will your group. This stuff was in the past, its not a refection on you or the group today so don’t take ownership of it, try to downplay it or apologize for it. Cite it, Denounce it and like I said, view it for what it is: a way of showing how the group has evolved. I don’t want to argue about it. I just would like to see the issue of colorism address by the members and be done with the whole thing.
Lets not pretend it did not happen at all, downplay it, or create doubt by saying things like “Although some instances may have happened, we need reliable sources to back up the claim” Its not a “may have happened” it’s an “actually did happen” thing. This is not some urban myth like you appear to want to make it seem. Its common knowledge (at least among black folks) that black folks in Greek organizations did this kind of stuff. When I first learned about the paper bag test in high school it was in the context of a discussion about black greek organizations and AKA was the group that was cited. Today when I ask black greeks or just black college kids “which was sorority was for the light skinned women back in the day?” of course AKA was mentioned by everyone who knew about the test. Better yet, you can look at the early group photographs and see the results of the selection process. In the AKA 1920 Cleveland Boule photograph I see 26 “instances” where the paper bag test “may have happened”. Each and everyone in the photograph is a light skinned woman. What’s the chances of that? Do you get my drift?
I think it’s important to address colorism in the black community. I went to this page because I wanted to see how this was address for a paper I am working on about colorism and I wanted to use AKA practices from the past as an example of a black organization which used such practices. Then I figured out why pretty quickly when I viewed this page.
“Not to ruffle any feathers, but the Delta founders were AKAs so their skin tone had nothing to do with them leaving AKA. If that were the case they would not have been chosen in the beginning.”
That is not all what I said and or implied so no feathers were ruffled because your shot totally missed the bird. I said “some AKA members did not like what they were doing to darker skinned women” In the context of stating a reason why the other sorority mentioned was found. Please note I said nothing about their skin tone as a reason for them leaving AKA. I said it was their distain for what the other light skinned women in AKA were doing to darker skinned women seeking membership. My only mistake was I should have said “in part” in describing their reasons for forming the new group because I gave the impression that was their only reason.
I get the impress you are going to play coy with me. If that is your plan I will get pissed off and to prove you are wrong and I am right will included sections from my paper with the “reliable sources to back up the claim” that “some instances may have happened” just because you all are playing coy about the whole thing. So, save face and avoid an edit war. Just say you will address the issue of colorism, do it fairly and let’s be done with it. Agreed? Yes or No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.214.21 (talk) 15:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, and it does not use "common knowledge" as a basis for articles. Sources preferably are scholarly, and published in peer-review journals. With AKA and other sororities' long histories, some historians may have written about the aspects you suggest in books. Those are "reliable sources".--Parkwells (talk) 17:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
“This is an encyclopedia, and it does not use "common knowledge" as a basis for articles.”
OK ??? What you pointed out was covered above already via the “reliable source” link she posed above. Just for further clarification I am never proposed included anything in the article based on common knowledge.
My use of common knowledge was limited to this page and used to demonstrate that its widely known what the organization she is associated with did in the past. To do this I proceeded to talk about the times I have discussed what the organization did in the past with the people I consider your average member of the black community who has no stake in the group. Your right their is a lot out there so why they have not been included up to this point is odd to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.214.21 (talk) 18:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
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- I understand what you are saying, truly I do, however again, this is/was not something that was widely practiced, nor is there any type of notation about it. To me it's being prejudicial and grouping people together. It's not part of the history, period, and has no significance to this article. Like User:Parkwells stated "common knowledge" does not equal "reliable sources". I'm not positive if there is an article about "Colorism" or the "Willie Lynch Factor" on Wiki, if there is maybe you can talk about it there or even start your own article about it. If you're able to find documentation you can put it there and also include other effects of colorism within the black community (i.e. modeling, job hiring, etc.). From reading your opinion it seems to me that you have personally experienced that and if that is the case my heart goes out to you, but you can't blame an entire organization or believe stereotypes.Knicksfan4ever 19:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Colorism did occur within fraternities and sororities, Jack-and-Jill, etc. not only just with AKA, Deltas, Zetas and Sigmas. However, I believe this point should be brought up with the Paper bag test article, because that subject has more relevance. I have Lawrence Otis Graham's book Our Kind of People, and he talks about the "paper bag test". I will add the information to the article later, because at the moment I am focused on this article in order to become a FA. I respect your points, but the test did not happen with just AKA. Miranda 20:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, truly I do, however again, this is/was not something that was widely practiced, nor is there any type of notation about it. To me it's being prejudicial and grouping people together. It's not part of the history, period, and has no significance to this article. Like User:Parkwells stated "common knowledge" does not equal "reliable sources". I'm not positive if there is an article about "Colorism" or the "Willie Lynch Factor" on Wiki, if there is maybe you can talk about it there or even start your own article about it. If you're able to find documentation you can put it there and also include other effects of colorism within the black community (i.e. modeling, job hiring, etc.). From reading your opinion it seems to me that you have personally experienced that and if that is the case my heart goes out to you, but you can't blame an entire organization or believe stereotypes.Knicksfan4ever 19:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
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- I'm familiar with that book as well and yes it may have occured, but where is the actual documents and proof that it was a common practice. There are many myths that may be in writing about different organizations, but are not fact (i.e. Mormons barring Blacks from their religion because they felt like being Black was a curse). I think it should be addressed in the "Paper Bag" article, but not in this one, not now, or even later, I am very against it. Knicksfan4ever 20:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
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To the person who said they were going to be 'pissed' that is fine with me. If you choose to get 'pissed' over someting that you can not prove....go ahead. Even if you prove it (which I doubt) as other users have stated that was something that may have occured in many groups, even churches. So with that being said in another article, but NOT THIS ONE!!! There were churches that would paint the doors so people would not need the bag, there were parties, oh I guess you want to mention the comb test too. Regardless, feel free to verifiy your clains and biuld the colorism article. Colorism is not just an African-American thing either.LivelyIvy1908 22:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Exactly Soror Lively!!! It is practiced in many cultures. My Filipino cousin in-law is dealing with that issue now. I concur, not for this article, period! Knicksfan4ever 23:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- What I meant was I would add the fact about the paper bag test to the paper bag test article, not AKA. Miranda 03:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly Soror Lively!!! It is practiced in many cultures. My Filipino cousin in-law is dealing with that issue now. I concur, not for this article, period! Knicksfan4ever 23:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
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First, of all you agree that it happed because you acknowledge “instances may have happened” and “It may be true that some chapters did show favoritism towards lighter skinned women”. Where AKA role in prompting colorism is address on this site is a separate issue of to what extent did it happen?
As far as where it’s addressed on the site my position is it should be addressed in multiple articles. Its not an only here on the AKA propaganda page, on the colorism page, and the paper bag test page. The may be other pages where it’s relevant too. Should it be an entire section on it in the AKA article label “controversies” or something along those lines? No, at all but it should be mentioned at some point in the article with the “reliable sources” cited and discussed in detail on the other pages were its relevant. As to the extent we seem to disagree on how widespread so it’s just a matter of citing the sources that covers the issue, which is not a problem. If you all don’t do it in a fair manner I will write a few lines about it, and provide the reliable source(s) one end of story.
Let me address 3 of your arguments. Like I said I will get reliable souses for the main article but for the purpose of this page right here right now, I will point to other sources or cultural references to address arguments thus far.
- 1 - “It may be true that some chapters did show favoritism towards lighter skinned women” but: No evidence it was a org wide policy
There is racism in the fashion industry against black women (or as you all would call it a “favoritism towards lighter skinned women”) which shows up on the runway or in other areas. Some black folks don’t think racism /discrimination exist today. I don’t think you’re in that camp and would agree with that statement? But correct me if I am wrong. I also think you know and will admit it’s not a written policy in the industry. Correct men if you think it otherwise. So just like you’re not going to find a written policy in fashion you are also not going to find in the 1909 AKA orientation handbook "no dark skin women allowed". You know that so why you keep arguing this nonsense about there is no paper trail…. And about how there is not “any type of notation about it”. You seem to think its only discrimination if its written down. You look at the composition of the folks that make it on the runway in the case of the fashion industry or in the group photo in the case of AKA. Look at the early photos. There is a traveling exhibit about your group 100 year anniversary. Go see it. Something was going on. Don’t come back and say something like “all the dark skinned girls miss the AKA group photo shoot that day” or tell me the photos were manipulated. Here is the important point you need to walk away with: A "written policy" is the smoking gun so to speak but it is ONE form of evidence, its not the only form, just one. When the courts were looking at the issue of affirmative action and discrimination in the workplace the organizations did not have to have a written policy to be found guilty of discrimination against minorities and/or women.
- 2 - It “It may be true that some chapters did show favoritism towards lighter skinned women”but: It was just an isolated incident by a few rouge members
I don’t think you believe that there were practice only by a few bad AKA girls on Howard campus. Whether it happened or it was an isolded incident that happened only once is not the point. It could have occur twice, 28 times, 50% of the time, .02% of the time. The point is it happened one to many times and it warrants mentioning. The threshold has been met once you acknowledged it happened once and that it has reach mythical levels.
You all have some really insulting argument too. That makes it hard to take you serious when you say off the wall stuff like:
- 3 - It may have happed but: Everyone was doing it don’t just pick on AKA---“as other users have stated that was something that may have occurred in many groups, even churches.”
I am not surprised, I would expect that out of churches, but that’s another issue. Aw, the there were a bunch of light skinned racist back in those days argument. I think the absurdity of this statement as a defense as to why colorism should not be addressed in the article is apparent. Like I said when you defend the indefensible you will lose every time. Yes, the issue of colorism should be addressed for those groups too. Which has nothing to do with addressing it here.
Frankly you all have some gall trying to play the victim here. Like black folks have been lying for 100 years about colorism in black Greek organizations like AKA. I have now clue why you what a long drawn out debate about it. I was hoping for an agreed, you put in a one or two lines statement about colorism and a link or two and we would not have a lengthy section on the talk page debate that puts such a focus on a negative chapter in black folks history but hey, whatever. Like I said we seem to disagree on how widespread so it’s just a matter of citing the sources that covers the issue, which is not a problem. If you all don’t do it in a fair manner I will write a few lines about it, and provide the reliable sources. We will come to an agreement as to how to present it on this page and link it to others end of story. If your goal is to not to include any mention of colorism and AKA on the main page is unacceptable. Sorry
@LivelyIvy1908: “Colorism is not just an African-American thing either” Huh Ok??? Never said it was, what’s your point??? Where are you getting the idea that’s what I think? This is the second time you done it. The first time you made it out like I said skin tone had something to do with them (the women who left to form the Deltas) leaving AKA. I said nothing about their skin tone as a reason for them leaving AKA. I clearly said “it was their distain for what the other light skinned women in AKA were doing to darker skinned women seeking membership” Your just makings up stuff in you attempt to show a united front in support to the apologist. You’re doing your sisters a disservice when you do it. I have to call you out it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.214.21 (talk) 15:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
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- I said it may have happened....I wasn't there and neither were you. My point about the Delta Founders was they were AKAs and some of them were dark skinned, as some of my Founders. So if the light skinned thing was such a big deal they would have never been chosen for membership. If you want you can discuss this on every page that you think has done colorism, Links, AKA, Alpha Phi Alpha, Kappa Alpha Psi, Delta, Jand & Jill, AME Churches, CME churches, where ever you want. I am not the one typing these long dissertations on something. Are you mad about something? Something to prove? If you are fine, if not fine. You can call me out on whatever you please....screen names do not scare me. Have a great day you guys!LivelyIvy1908 17:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Soror Lively, there is really no point in continuing this discussion, you and I know what the real deal is. While we have acknowledged this may have happened, like you said we weren't there, it's like an urban legend that's been passed down from generation to generation. Nothing we can do about it. This article is about Alpha Kappa Alpha and everything in the article has a point of reference. There is no written or solid proof that this was a practice by the organization as a whole. So what a photo has a picture of all light skinned women, there are also some chapters with all dark skinned women, you know what that means? Absolutely nothing. It seems this person has personal issues, but the battle is not with Alpha Kappa Alpha! Skee Wee My Soror!!! Knicksfan4ever 19:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
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You are right Soror KincksFan! I guess I should have thought about "Things that are worth while..." Love ya!!LivelyIvy1908 01:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Which Brown is this?
The first paragraph says, “According to Brown, sororities allowed spheres of influence,…” with no antecedent. There is a Brown in the references, and a different Brown among the founders; this is confusing. —crism (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Brown in the refs., let me clear that up. miranda 00:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Happy Founders Day
Just wanted to share this poem with everyone! Skee-Wee my sorors! Knicksfan4ever 14:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
AKA...and ??
In 1908, Soror Lyle wanted to make things better So she created an organization Where black women could come together Shoot, I don't know about you, But I think that was pretty clever.
It started in Miner Hall When the ivy was on the wall These women's talents were tall And our Beloved Splendid Sixteen Took on the challenge... held it to high esteem.
The four incorporators Were the real innovators Made sure the dream could continue After that, there could only be imitators.
That AKA dream Had us standing tall It's been 100 years With all the work we've done, is that all??
We have many more miles to go. More dreams to create. More services to do More goals to make
Sorors!!! It’s 2008 !!! So keep the tradition alive RE-ACTIVATE!!!
We, ladies of AKA have style, elegance And so much flair. We do our work with grace, class And lots of care.
We don't settle for less We go for the top... the very best. We surpass all the rest. If you don't know, put US to the test!!!
So if anyone asks you Girl, why do you look so grand? Why do you walk so tall? Why are YOU in high demand?
You just say ... I'm an AKA... and??
--Soror Crystal J. Leotaud, Pi Phi Omega ~*~*~*~
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- Happy Founders Day Sorors!! I am so glad to be a part of this Sisterhood. Soror KnicksFan e-mail me when you get a chance.LivelyIvy
1908 22:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] I think we are done with adding information
I think we are done with this article, except for copyediting for syntax and flow per the FAC nom. I have tried to add recent news from the website, articles, etc. to the 2008 centennial section. Miranda 16:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Poll
Since this article is featured, what date should we have the article featured on the mainpage?
[edit] Proposed Layout
[edit] Proposed Date
Feb. 14th - Day of the first Black History Day by Carter G. Woodson. CHEERS! miranda 06:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- YAY FEATURED!!! Feb. 14 sounds good. Well, Jan. 29 is the day of the incorporation of the Sorority. July 12 is the first day of the 2008 Boule.LivelyIvy1908 01:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Yes, I forgot about Jan. 29. But, do you think that would be too soon? I want national office to know about this so that they can put the notification on the page. July 12 would be too late, though. That's 6 mo. away. miranda 01:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Jan. 29 is quite soon, but I think that it could be done, plus Corporate Office will send notification if they want, so that members will know. February will probably be a little better as to allow for ample communication time.LivelyIvy1908 03:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think Feb. would be okay, but we have to see what Knicks thinks. miranda 03:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Jan. 29 is quite soon, but I think that it could be done, plus Corporate Office will send notification if they want, so that members will know. February will probably be a little better as to allow for ample communication time.LivelyIvy1908 03:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
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Cool.LivelyIvy1908 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Update: I think it would have to be Feb. 14, because the request queue is over 5. Separate note: I requested the list to be featured on the same day. miranda 01:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- I made a request on the scheduling page. Sent an e-mail to national office to tell them that the article is featured. miranda 08:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Today is the 29th. What other day is avaiable?LivelyIvy1908 18:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Might want to try Boulé time. miranda 01:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Open
The open says something to the effect of 'AKA is the 1st of 4 greek lettered sororities founded and incorparated by African American women.' I know the 4 implied are the most popular and well known, but are there no other african american women founded and incorporated sototities around. Regardless if there are, can we re state that to say "AKA is the first Sorority to be founded and incorporated by African American women."LivelyIvy1908 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, with Links, Jack-and-Jill, etc. we need to change it. miranda 03:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Done miranda 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Contacting National Office
Can either one of you (Ivy or Knicksfan4ever) contact AKA's national office about the featured article because I feel as though my messages will either be ignored or trashed b/c of my lack of connection with the sorority. Thanks. miranda 05:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Founders Window and Plaque
Found the founders window (better quality) and the plaque. Do you think I should ask the author to release the window to Wikipedia? miranda 01:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
