Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha/2007-archive

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Contents

inspired by boyfriend

I haven't found this information to be anywhere else but from one website. I can't even find this on the AKA national website. Are there any other references to claim that, "Lyle was inspired by her then high school and college sweetheart George Lyle, a charter member the Beta chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity at Howard in 1907." 64.12.7.141 08:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In our official history, AKA was inspired by Alpha Phi Alpha's establishment of Beta chapter on Howard University. Bearly541 01:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ontario Chapter

I encountered this link (http://www.black-pearls.org/) while doing some web surfing. The organization is called, "The Black Pearls." Are they a part of AKA? I didn't add the flag to the main page yet, because I wanted to get everyone's opinons on this matter. Real96 19:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a group with it own by-laws and date of incorporation. The membership includes some AKAs and non-AKAs since the website indiciates that all board of directors must be an AKA, so that suggest that all members are not AKAs. I don't think it should be included in this article.--Ccson 04:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This interest group was compromised of solely AKA's and it has recieved its charter to be an official chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. See: http://www.akainternational.org/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=2

Can the Canadian Flag be added to the Info Box. I tried, but failed. Thanks! LivelyIvy1908 19:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC) I figured it out. sorry. LivelyIvy1908 19:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a chapter is chartered in Canada. So, definately, yes! See this. Real96 01:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Important Members??

I suggest that this section be called Founders and Exec or something of that nature. Soror Bearly541 maybe you will agree with me...especially with the ESP programs, because one acroynm is Every Soror is a Pearl. I think that all of the members are inportant in thier own right, yes the founders should be hightled, because without them Alpha Kappa Alpha would not exist. --LivelyIvy1908 01:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Livelyivy. I think Bearly541 has left the project. However, with the ESP program, the information on the program should reflect what's made public via the website (http://www.aka1908.com), and not by meetings/private sources/Ivy Leaf publications since the public can't access that information. AKA, as well as other NPHC organizations, have specific mandates in which certain information can be released. For example, a brief biography of the Presidents/Founders can be released by looking at what's online, but not by the history book because that's property of the sorority itself which is released to members only. Remember, this page, as well as the Alpha's (and other NPHC organizations) pages are made public and are not the official history of the sororities/fraternities. In addition, I think Bearly has changed "important members" to "honorary members." Let me know if you need any help. Real96 02:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Livelyivy, I see what you referred to, and I have changed the title. Thanks. Real96 02:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ivy Acres

I do not know how to write a article that will meet the requirements required by wikipedia. If anyone think this is worth inclusion check it out. Ivy Acres community for senior living website www.ivyacres-sri.com This community was created by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. (LivelyIvy1908 17:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC))

I don't think that's worth including because on AKA's website, they don't mention the location. On the site, if it was supported by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated, the website would have had a copyright by Alpha Kappa Alpha. I think a member of AKA, but not the organization started this endeavor, but I could be wrong. Real96 03:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

See: http://aka1908.com/centennial/region-mid-atlantic.html also http://www.ivyacres-sri.com/aboutus.asp The members of the board of directors arew AKA's. It doesn't have to be included, I thought it would be worth checking out that's all. (LivelyIvy1908 19:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC))

As long as the information is official and supported by the sorority. However, I would wait, since the complex hasn't been built yet. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Real96 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Information to improve article

What type of information should be added to make this atricle A class. For example som things I have noticed included in other articles are the Organization Journal/Magazine. The official publication of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority is the Ivy Leaf. Alpha Kappa Alpha was incorporated January 29, 1913. The New Centennial website offers lots of information including the officer titles for example Basileus (President of Chapter, Supreme Basileus (International President), Second Supreme Anti Basileus (2nd International Vice President (an undergraduate position)). LivelyIvy1908 15:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The Alpha Phi Alpha page is a really good example of FA class. You can ask Ccson for additional help on this. Real96 21:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I like the information about the ESP that was added especially about the Undergraduate Signature Program.LivelyIvy1908 02:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I got it from the press release on the official website. Real96 22:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I added Regional information. If it needs to be changed please leave them in the order that I have listed them. I tried to place them side by side listing five in each row, but that didn't turn out well. I also wanted to include the geographical photo (see: https://akawebnet.aka1908.net/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?webcode=CL ) of the regions from the website, but I am not a great wiki user.LivelyIvy1908 22:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Regions of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority
Regions of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

. '

Yes, I might make a Pink and Green map for this. Real96 23:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I also am improving EAF, since they updated the website. If you could upload a past Ivy Leaf that would be great! Real96 23:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I had to remove the content that you inserted, LI, because it violated WP:COPYRIGHT. Real96 23:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) I made an image and u/l to commons. See this Real96 05:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I added the information for the regions to this article. I am also going to add the Miner Hall picture to the history portion.Real96 06:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know how to include in the article a reference, but the part about Jane Addams is on page 272 of Past is Prologue. Also, I scanned a copy of Ivy Leaf and I couldn't get it to upload. Sould I call corporate office to make sure it is OK?LivelyIvy1908 19:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ivy, I can add the citation for you, per WP:CITE. Also, b/c of the permission that I received from the picture site (see bottom topic), I can upload one of the Ivy Leaf images from the 1930s or so, as well as the Miner Hall image. It would be best to e-mail the sorority first for the EAF and the ESP images. I am kind of on break (on and off), but I will update the citation for you. Real96 00:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added the Ivy Leaf magazine to the article. I need to add the MS Health project to the article. I have also added commons images to the bottom of the article. More information from other sources would be helpful. Miranda 04:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
You should include some text regarding the Ivy leaf magazine to justify the inclusion of the picture in the article. The text should be in close proximit to the picture of the journal.--Ccson 06:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

The triva section seems to have been replaced with a header called 'NPHC' but the information that follows seems to have no relation to the NPHC. EX: Hillary Clinton and Founder Lucy Diggs Slowe and her relation to Elder Watson Diggs of KAPsi.LivelyIvy1908 16:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected it. I am thinking about putting "Alpha Kappa Alpha founder Lucy Diggs Slowe is related to Kappa Alpha Psi founder Elder Watson Diggs. [citation needed]" into the Kappa Alpha Psi article. Real96 01:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Would the information about the Diggs not be suitable in this article also.LivelyIvy1908 15:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, would be suitable in the article about Lucy Diggs Slowe or about Diggs himself. Real96 22:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Images from Commons

I added images from Wikimedia Commons. I also am wondering if we can upload these images if we have fair use permission from the author. Real96 22:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

How would we obtain permission? By just e-mailing the people who posted them to the group? I am sure they didn't take the original photos. Also, I love the improvements.LivelyIvy1908 20:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I e-mailed the group yesterday. And, thanks for the compliment! Real96 23:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Smithsonian pics

I also found an archive of pictures by the Smithsonian shown here. I should u/l them soon and add them to the article. Real96 02:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This is against copyright of 70+ years after the author's death. Miranda 18:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Controversy

I am wondering if such controversy should be included in the article, such as hazing and the MiAKAS. I have read archives to say that the men should not be included, but I have seen news reports on the MiAKAs, thus making the argument for inclusion notable. Also, I do believe that the incident with the California women should be included, because this is when Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated made their anti-hazing policy more stringent. Real96 13:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think anything about the 'men' should be included. They have no official or unofficial ties to Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. They have gone to length to e-mail members trying to explain their connection, but a letter from the Centennial Supreme Basileus detailed how there is no connection what so ever. I am not in favor of anything about the Cali incident, but I am not in total opposition.LivelyIvy1908 18:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I mean, we can leave the controversy to a later date. However, the California incident proved to be not related. I mean, we can mention the incident, but say, "disclaimer, the sorority wasn't a chapter of AKA, and led to stricter rules, etc." We most definitely need to mention the hazing policy, though. Real96 19:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I can write something which will come from the anti-hazing handbook, can I e-mail it to you to make sure it sounds good.LivelyIvy1908 01:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You can e-mail me. Can you please ask the organization about the EAF and the ESP images, because I don't know who to contact as far as PR with the sorority. Real96 06:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
If you're going to mention the more stringent hazing policy, I think you're have to include the "Cali incident' since it was the impetus for the policy. Unfortunately, as editors, you must present a Neutral and Unbiased POV, and that may entail including some info that is not flattering.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccson (talk • contribs)
I have added the controversy section on the Present Day section. Cheers. Miranda 23:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Commons Images

I am u/l images to commons which I found from the NIH. I will make a section soon on the Mississippi Health project (i.e. expand it). Real96 16:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Y Done Miranda 00:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


Books

I would love to put the Heritage Series in this article. But the problem is that I don't have the covers for these booklets. Subjects include:

  • Women in the Judiciary
  • Women in Politics
  • Women in Medicine
  • Women in Business
  • Women in Dentistry

Also, I would like to get access to The American Council on Human Rights: An Evaluation (March 15, 1954). A copy of it is located here on eBay. I just need to search and find, I guess. Lively, if you could get some of your sorors to help with adding information the article, that would be excellent, because it seems to me that I am the only one working on the article. :-( Real96 10:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The article can list all the booklets, however; I think a single picture from one of the covers would be a suffice as an example of the series.--Ccson 06:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, I think there are too many pictures, and we can leave some pictures out. Miranda 09:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Y Done Miranda 02:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Ivy Leaf Pledge Club

I was a member of the "Ivy Leaf Pledge Club" at a historically Black university. Our colors were not "pink and blue," nor was our motto, "nothing but the highest." What source was used other than the info. from Wilberforce U. in 1922, as this info. is not "universal" as this article suggests? Avid reader 02:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The information regarding the Ivy Leaf Pledge Club was published by the Wilberforce University chapter. I think the colors would change at specific universities. Instead, I will put, For example, at Wilberforce University, the "Ivy Leaf Pledge Club" motto... And, the Wilberforce picture was the only source for that information that I could find online. I am sure that there is more information in the sorority's history books. Miranda 02:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I had looked at the Wilberforce info. previously and thought nothing of the motto/colors info. What is important is what the Ivy Leaf Pledge Club was- which is explained pretty well. The info. and the pledge club colors may have been important to Wilberforce and/or to certain pledge clubs. I would not go as far as to say that the motto and colors thing would change at other universities. Keep the info. found at Wilberforce simply as info. found at Wilberforce. In other words, don't attribute the motto/colors to all pledge clubs. You could simply state that they adopted such and such colors and as their motto.... See the distinction? Thanks. Avid reader 17:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have done that, thank you. Miranda 03:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Feature Article?

The article has improved immensely with the help of several editors. It would be a great idea to get the article to Feature Article status and possibly have it featured during the week of January 15, 2008 in honor of the 100th anniversary. Here is the Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Once you have a stable article, the next step is a peer review. The reviewers can be merciless, but the info is helpful.--Ccson 06:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

You may consider looking at the Talk:Alpha Phi Alpha page, see the milestones and reveiw the peer review and FA candidiate reviews to see what the objections were, so that you can avoid these "mistakes". You may also want to review current articles nominated for FA to see what current reviewers are lookin for in an FA article.--Ccson 06:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Miner Hall Image

Please read my comments in the discussion section for your image of Miner Hall. It is incorrect.205.222.248.31 15:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)L. Jones--(non-registered user)

Responded there. M.(er) 16:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Copy of the conversation

This is not the correct image of Miner Hall, the founding location of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. This is a picture of the Miner Teacher's College Building, which was located next to Howard Univerisity. The building is now owned by the school. To see a picture of Miner Hall, as it was in 1908, visit http://www.huarchivesnet.howard.edu/9908huarnet/power/progress/progress/sld010.htm

The link provided is the building when it existed in 1868. The image is correct, because it was used by the national website. M.(er) 16:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Image in discussion. Miner Hall is to the right (1868).
Image in discussion. Miner Hall is to the right (1868).

The picture on the national website is also incorrect and I have informed them of that fact. The building you have posted is still standing and was not in existence in 1868. The original Miner Hall was torn down around 1961. (I was initiated into Alpha Chapter at Howard, have served as chapter historian and wrote my master's thesis on the Sorority, so I'm not just guessing about the building.) I appreciate your quick responses. It shows that you are interested in accuracy 205.222.248.31 18:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)L. Jones (guest user)

I will contact the Moreland Springard Research Center by e-mail this weekend and ask them for a picture of Miner Hall for the article. If you have any contact with the Moreland Springard Center, please let them contact me on my talk page or e-mail. For now, I have removed the image on the AKA page, and have copied this conversation to Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha. Thanks for your help, and tell me if I need to make anymore corrections. M.(er) 23:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
According to this, the building was demolished in 1961. I am currently in contact with the library in order to attain a picture. M.(er) 21:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a close up of Miner Hall in 1870 b/c of the center shape of the middle of the building (as compared to the old building). I will crop and use that as fair use public domain into the article. Again, thank you so much for your help. Miranda 06:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

"To proliferate the growth"

Please fix the writing. Or just delete the Delta Sigma Theta section.218.214.18.240 03:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The section will not be deleted. However, the wording will be fixed. Miranda 03:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Nellie Quander

Nellie Quander was a graduate member of AKA in the Fall of 1912. She was initiated into AKA in the Spring of 1911 and became president of alpha chapter AKA in the Spring of 1912. Nellie Quander graduated from Howard University with a BA, magna cum laude in June of 1912. So at the Fall 1912 meeting she was a graduate member of AKA and Howard University. HistoricDeltaSigmaTheta 22:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, but this would be better if you have a reliable source (i.e. book, website, etc.) I will do some research too. Also, glad to see you back. Miranda 22:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


Assistance with non-honorary members

If any AKA member could help/assist, I am making a list of notable AKAs to correlate with the article, see this. I am having trouble finding some notable AKAs initiate chapters. Your help is beneficiary. Also, do you think the national office could assist in providing the initiate chapters of some notable AKAs? Thanks. Miranda 06:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there any difference in honorary versus initiated members that matters to the public? The Corporate Office possibly could help. I can assist. For example Phylicia Rashad is not honorary, she is an initiated member, quite possibility Alpha Chapter.LivelyIvy1908 18:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I have been doing researching. I thought it would be nice to have a featured list/updated list with this article...see List of Alpha Phi Alpha brothers. I have been working with this in my sandbox. You can see my progress there. Miranda 20:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

GAC review - REVISITED

I've started the reivew, but am not able to do the review strait through. My progress can be tracked here. Feel free to comment there on anything you have questions about or may disagree with. Regards, Lara♥Love 20:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Completed review and custodian comments moved from my drafts page:

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

Non-section-specific

  • Ensure all dates are wikilinked for user preferences. This is all month day, year combos as well as any month day combos.Y Done
  • In headings, only the first letter of the first word, and the first letter of proper nouns are capitalized; all other letters are in lower case (for example, “Rules and regulations”, not “Rules and Regulations”)[1]Y Done
  • The ndash should be used to distinguish between years. This is an issue in the headings and also in the body. There is also inconsistent spacing between years and dashes in the subheading titles.
  • Remove the random wikification of stand-alone years.Y Done
  • Has there been any criticism of the sorority?Y Done

History

  • I feel that sections 1.3 and 1.4 should have further wording in the titles to be consistent with Beginnings, Cession and formation..., and Present day. Y Done

Beginnings: 1907-1912

*Unless there is a good reason to do so, Wikipedia avoids linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.[2] Y Done Links in quotes are taken out.

  • Redlinks are appropriate as long as they are relevant to the article and notable within themselves as an article. Are all the redlinks in this article potential articles? If not, they need to be removed.[3]
Potential articles. I am working on them. Miranda 22:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Eventually nine women, along with Hedgeman, Beulah Burke, Lillie Burke, Lucy Diggs Slowe, Marjorie Hill, Margaret Flagg Holmes, Marie Woolfolk Taylor, Anna Easter Brown, and Lavinia Norman were involved in the instrumental phases in organizing the sorority." - Would be better worded as "Hedgeman was eventually joined by Beulah Burke, Lillie Burke, Lucy Diggs Slowe, Marjorie Hill, Margaret Flagg Holmes, Marie Woolfolk Taylor, Anna Easter Brown, and Lavinia Norman in the instrumental phases in organizing the sorority." See below.

Cession and formation of Delta Sigma Theta: 1912-1913

  • "When the word was spread to Nellie Quander about changing the sorority namesake, she was said to be "horrified" at the proposal and gave the women who disagreed with her a deadline to terminate the efforts of reorganizing the sorority." - Nellie Quander is not previously mentioned in the article, thereby causing this sentence to lack context. Y Done
  • The constant listing of names is distracting and makes the article difficult to read, in my opinion.
  • "Later, Quander led the group which incorporated Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority as a perpetual body on January 29, 1913.[17] Quander, along with Nellie Pratt Russell, Julia Evangeline Brooks, Norma Elizabeth Boyd, Ethel Jones Mowbray, and Minnie B. Smith incorporated the sorority.[9]" - These two sentences appear to be stating the same thing, but in different ways. If so, combine the information into one sentence. See below. Miranda 20:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The image of the pearls seems out of place here. I realize it's representative of the name given to the founders, but it's not a direct representation. It's just a generic photo of pearls. That's my opinion. Removed. Miranda 07:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I based the pearls off of symbolism. See this for Alpha Phi Alpha. Miranda 05:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

1920 - 1950

*The manual of style discourages sandwiching text between images. This is, however, not in the GA criteria.[4]
*Some of the capitalization in this section seems unnecessary. "Southern Blacks", "Summer School", "Rural Teachers" Programs are expanded in this section. See this section.
*This section lacks citation. Y Done

1960 - 1980

  • The last sentence/paragraph seems to be incorrectly worded.
  • If you're going for FA, you need to rearrange the image so as not to sandwich text between them.
*This section lacks citation.Y Done

Present day: 1990 - 2000

  • "However, on September 9, 2002, after undergoing a ceremony Pacific Ocean at Dockweiler State Beach, twenty-two year old Kristin High and twenty-four year old Kenitha Saafir were swept into a ten foot surf, which killing them." - Needs to be reworded.
Y Done However, on September 9, 2002, a ten foot surf killed twenty-two year old Kristin High and twenty-four year old Kenitha Saafir during an underground ceremony at Dockweiler State Beach near the Pacific Ocean.
  • "The suit claimed that the two women lost sleep while performing tasks for the members of the underground sorority, carried out physical exercises on the beach, wore jogging clothes and tennis shoes." - This also needs to be reworded.

*I don't believe Fraternity should be capitalized.

  • The last sentence of the last paragraph seems out of place. It should start a new paragraph and, if possible, add a some additional info, i.e. any plans they may have for this occasion. Y Done

Membership

Membership Interest and Intake

*For the quote, replace the dashes with mdashes.Y Done

The Boulè

  • The Silver and Golden Jubilee being colored, while cutes, isn't necessarily appropriate. The silver is difficult to see. There may (although I'm not sure) be issues with the gold for some people with color-blindness. For that reason, I recommend removing the use of color for these words. Y Done

National Programs

Ivy Acres

  • "Ivy Acres is a retirement center located in Winston-Salem, North Carolina." - Nothing wrong with that, just thought it was amusing that my city is part of this article. Didn't see that coming.

Article custodian comments/questions

First thanks for providing this review. Let me respond to your points. First, the quotations are necessary to the order in order to introduce the importance of the scope of the programs (in the national programs section), to provide the purpose of the sorority (first quotation) and to provide the experience that one person had pledging in the sorority. The red links are future articles of AKA founders. Nellie Quander is an incorporator who was the only one from the group to table the decision not to change the colors of the sorority as well as the motto and the ideals, thus bringing up the cession of seven women leaving the sorority to form DST. I am trying to eventually make this into a FA like Alpha Phi Alpha. Any help would be appropriate. Thanks. Miranda 03:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The placement of the quotes is fine, imo, it's the wikilinking within the quotes that needs to be removed. If all the redlinks are notable subjects that will be able to successfully hold their own article, that's fine. They'll have to be created prior to FA, of course. I read about who Nellie Quander is by clicking and reading her article, however, that shouldn't be required. There should be some introduction as to who she is before she is mentioned as being outraged. Lara♥Love 04:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I haven't thought of that. Let me do a little research and add that to the article soon (couple of days). Miranda 05:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) For future reference, here a couple of examples of GA F&S Category:GA-Class_Greek_Life_articles. Miranda 14:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to look over those in-depth, but the first thing I notice is there are not paragraphs of names listed. I can't help but assume all of the women listed and linked in the article are not notable enough to hold their own article. It seems, to me, to be unnecessary to list all of these women. The first pledges for example, don't seem notable to me. And it does not improve the readability of the article to have so many names listed. People don't care to read names, imo, particularly when they aren't previously familiar with those names. Lara♥Love 19:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Sections three and four are kind of under construction. I need to do further research on these sections, such as citations. The "horrified" quote is cited from the Delta Sigma Theta book. I kind of added a minor description of who Nellie Quander was. Criticism of sororities can be found on Fraternities and Sororities, more general. Hazing is mentioned in the 1990s/present day section. Updated the mdash in the quote. Miranda 18:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Conclusion

The nomination was placed on hold July 27 to allow time for issues already noted in the review in progress to be addressed while I completed the review. Very little progress has been made. Three days remain on the hold. Regards, Lara♥Love 18:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Issues have not been addressed, therefore, the article will not be listed as a GA at this time. Once the article has been brought up to standards, it may be renominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision was made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R. Regards, Lara♥Love 03:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Update

I took out the founders names in the beginning paragraph and put them in this table. I fixed the images as well, so they wouldn't be sandwiched. Miranda 00:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The images are still sandwiched. It's bordering on over-illustrated, I think. Also, for Image:Aka1932.jpg, did you go through the foundation when confirming their release of the copyright? Lara❤Love 15:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Yep, thanks for reminding me. Those pics come from the same site. Miranda 17:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Y Done Rationale provided. And, I took the pearls image out. Miranda 18:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead Section

I am worried about the lead section, because for an article of this length, three or for paragraphs are required due to this. Miranda 22:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I would expect an article of this length, with this much information, to be 4 paragraphs. Lara❤Love 15:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I am so not good with lead sections. Someone else may want to help out in this area. Miranda 18:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Split intro into three sections. Miranda 20:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotes

  • {{cquote}} is for pull quotes only. The instructions for this template indicate that the usage in this article is inappropriate. {{quote}} should be used instead. Lara❤Love 15:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, quotes should not be italicized per WP:MOS#Italics_and_quotations. Lara❤Love 15:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Took the ital. out. However, I am confused about the usage of quote v. cquote. Miranda 18:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Made appropriate changes. Miranda 20:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Might want to format the citations, (b/c some have p. and others have pp.), as well as the difference b/n op. cit. and op. ed.? But we will do this once the sections are complete. I am not completely done with the article. Miranda 12:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixed this. Miranda 22:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Dispute

As a 13 year member of Alpha Kappa Alpha (initiated Spring 94, Alpha Epsilon Chapter-Mid-Atlantic Region), I feel the information is too much for a public website and it goes beyond what is on our national website. I feel the edits of this page or any related page should be made by a member of the sorority for clarity. I have made the necessary contacts in the sorority to review this page. Any Sorors can feel free to contact meKnicksfan4ever (talk) 15:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand your feelings on this, however, this page is not "owned" by anybody, and as such anybody and everybody can contribute to it. This is one of the main points of Wikipedia. If a source is available to back part of the article, then it belongs here if it is pertinent to, and advances, the article. You can make all the contacts you want with the national office of AKA, but that doesn't diminish or change the fact that everything contained here that has been cited is in the public record, and this is just a gathering point for that information, and there really isn't anything that you, me, or AKA can do about it. Justinm1978 (talk) 20:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


This is true and like you said anyone can edit it and make corrections. Not trying to shut the page down, as a member just trying to make sure the information is correct, several books under the references have been disputed as falsifying information (i.e just because it's written, doesn't make it fact). ThanksKnicksfan4ever (talk) 20:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Some rules. 1.) If she makes a legal threat against me, she will be blocked indef. 2.)If she continues to disrupt, she will be blocked. 3.) Your conflict of interest in the sorority may lead to biased information. Here's a suggestion, why don't you check out the books and look the facts up yourself to see if they are true? I have been working very hard for almost a year to make this an FA, and your "criticizing of the validity of this" and contacting the sorority for validation, doesn't do anything but to disrupt and waste my and others time. FYI, the sorority knows about this page and has used some images without attribution on their centennial website. Also, you can have people revert and delete information off of this page, but the information will be reverted and the page protected. Wikipedia is not censored by anyone. Miranda 22:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I respect the fact that you have been working on this article for a year, but your comments are approaching the level of taking ownership of the article. You also know that something this minor will not result in a page protection. You can catch more flies with honey. Also, WP:LT doesn't have anything to do with legal threats :) Justinm1978 05:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Let's see. Justin, when you are stalked by a person who is not doing anything but to disrupt the encyclopedia, let's see what you will do. I am not owning the article, and have asked others to improve upon the content. I said if she brings her sorority members to delete article content, this page will be asked for protection. Miranda 05:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, and I agree that if we get a rash of people deleting out the cited materials, then protection may be necessary. I'm just saying what I'm seeing while observing this. There is a lot of bad attitude and incivility and the impression of ownership. Justinm1978 05:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Justin, no one has threatened or stalked, its the internet. I'm making suggestions to help when I could have just took it upon myself and whoever to edit but I respected the fact that she's been working on it. She has not been civil and she's showing ownership like you said and it looks like its not the first time. I'm really trying to help. Didn't understand at first if you notice as the conversation continued, I started understanding better. Its a clear case of WP:BITE.Knicksfan4ever 05:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No one is going to make a legal threat against you, it's not that serious. I said before that you did an excellent job (check your talk page). I have not changed my mind about that. After looking at it with other sorors, there are some suggestions that I would like to make from a member's prespective, this is free speech. It's not disrupting it's commenting on something that I obviously know a lot about. You deleted my contribution on the sorority's reference of Ethel Hedgeman Lyle which was fact. I've been learning a lot on here and I have found people who are willing to assist. You could also have a conflict of interest with possibly wanting inclusion into the organization. Of course, I would want to make sure all the information is correct, I didn't say it wasn't correct. I just feel that some of it needs to be edited. That's the webmaster who used the photos, BOD doesn't get involved in that, unless they need to. They have a huge celebration to plan. My suggestion to you is consult members of the organizations before you make edits or write about them, they may be able to give you some guidance, they would have more knowledge beyond a book. With all the work you've put into it, I'm sure you would agree with thisKnicksfan4ever (talk) 23:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion to you is consult members of the organizations before you make edits or write about them.
Are you joking? Miranda 23:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I really think it would help you, you asked for help before concering the honorary members vs non-honorary members. Which actually some sorors still debate onKnicksfan4ever (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am ignoring your "suggestions", since you don't know how Wikipedia works. I am tired of wasting my energy responding to these ludicrous claims, when all you are doing is disrupting the encyclopedia.Miranda 23:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for saying this since you don't know how Wikipedia works. I am learning fast, it's clear that you are doing this WP:BITE. No worries, I will continue to edit and contribute as a new and learning member of wikipedia. It's the internet, and it's here for information. Thanks again! Knicksfan4ever (talk) 00:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not biting, I ran out of patience and good faith with you since you stalked me about my real life activities concerning my interest which is none of your business and inquired about my edits. Sorry, but I am not going to continue aiding you and discussing with you, and advise you to contact some other person about improving the encyclopedia. Miranda 00:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
“ The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. ”

—WP:V
-- Cobi(t|c|b|cn) 23:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Not worried about the real life activities, I wish you well in whatever you want to do. I would hardly call editing an organization and subjects of which I have direct association with "stalking" that's a little too far. Will do. Hopefully, I won't run into this again[1]. I just started out trying to figure out the issue, didn't expect to run into this. I had an easier time making it to the 3rd round of the Jeopardy auditions (smile). Trying to lighten it up a little. Thanks again Knicksfan4ever (talk) 00:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This article reads like a history book, even the founding of America is not this long, I propose that it be shortened with only pertinent information that true researchers would want to know. This information (not all of it) would only be helpful to a person who is in the organization (which they would already know most of this) or someone wanting to join the organizationKnicksfan4ever 01:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No. I am going for FA. See Alpha Phi Alpha to know what a FA article looks like. Miranda 01:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok I get it now, so it's for recognition (wiki awards, etc.)I see. IMHO I feel it still could be consolidated, it is quite a bit of information that wouldn't even be included if someone was to look it up in the Encyclopedia [[Britannica] Thanks Knicksfan4ever 04:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not for the recognition. I don't know why you would think that? It's because I feel that AKA is a notable organization and 100th anniversary is coming up soon. Your "sorors" didn't help me at all, except for Lively and two other users, so I had to go at this alone for almost a year. Again, no, this will not be consolidated. If I were you, I would help to gather more information about the sorority instead of complaining about the layout, et cetera. Miranda 04:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


Don't need to gather information it's been in my head going on 14 years. Of course I agree with you about it being a very notable organization. The history that is on the national website is sufficient. It's great information on the page, but it's overkill. Who besides someone who is a prespective member would be interested, that's reality. I think you should take the most important facts within my sorority's history and consolidate it to make it an easy read, instead of clutter. IMHO you probably didn't receive the help because of the way you initially approached the situation for assistance. There are people that are willing to help out there. You just have to askKnicksfan4ever 04:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Again, no. We will not consolidate the article due to your opinions. Look at Alpha Phi Alpha, a featured article. Also, be civil. Miranda 04:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a dog in this fight, but the Alpha Phi Alpha page says at the top whenever you go to edit it: This page is 83 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. While it may be a FA, that doesn't mean it's not horribly long and could stand to be trimmed nor does it mean that this article must be ridiculously long in order to be considered FA. Civility is a two-way street. From an outside perspective, you are both reaping what you are sowing. This is not advancing the article. Of course, you could always take this to mediation.... Justinm1978 05:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Justin, she wants to delete the information and base the article upon the national website. I am not mediating with her. I have made edits to the article, and she is doing nothing, but saying "you have to have the sorority to approve the edits to this article or any articles relating to AKA members". That's disruptive if you ask me. Miranda 05:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I said nothing about deletion and I've been beyond civil and truly trying to help as a member a lot of members may have not been as civil to a non-member questioning there knowledge of something they know inside and out. I don't know why I'm asking you when everyone is free to edit. I have said you've done a good job, but sections like listing where all the Boules took place? You have to agree that its too much. No matter what your opinion is, I am sincere when it comes to AKA. I've seen how you've asked for help as well as had disputes instead of taking into consideration their suggestions. Happy editingKnicksfan4ever 05:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is 66k now. I split a section of Boules to a separate article. Miranda 05:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't agree with "you have to have the sorority to approve the edits to this article or any articles relating to it". That's totally disruptive and doesn't make for a very good article. I've always been of the opinion that if it's published in a reliable source that a non-member could get their hands on, then it's valid for inclusion. She does have a point about including some rather extraneous material like the picture of pearls that was recently taken out, and the picture of ivy that I'm about to take out. We know what pearls and ivy look like, they don't contribute to the article. Justinm1978 06:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
You are correct Justin, she doesn't have to get approval, which I see since anyone can edit any article. I think consolidation would improve it and people will be able to follow it. Some people make look at it and click off, people these days don't like to spend too much time reading, I experience everyday at work. I'm stepping back and letting her handle it, just making suggestions. Thanks for your help. I'm working on other articles as well.Knicksfan4ever 06:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


Pictures

This is what you, Ivy, or any AKA can do for that matter in regards to AKA involvement. Take pictures of AKAs getting involved with community service, and upload them to Wikipedia under a GFDL or CC-BY, CC-BY-SA license. Take a picture of Rankin Church this of the AKA window at Howard University to upload to Wikipedia under a CC-BY-SA, CC-BY, or PD license to replace Marjorie Parker's book. Miranda 06:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

If you had of said everything else but that first sentence (This is what you, Ivy, or any AKA can do for that matter in regards to AKA involvement.) I would have considered providing you some. I have quite a few from the Baptist Children's Home, Coat Drive for the homeless, etc., etc. We don't need to "do" anything we've done a lot by becoming members. Let me know if I am reading into that statement the wrong way. Good job on consolidating the Boules. There's some more that can be worked on as well. Will post suggestions to this page for improvements.Knicksfan4ever 06:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be awesome to improve the page and replace fair images with free images. Please? That would be great. A picture of Rankin Memorial Chapter will be great, too. If you can't get Rankin, I can ask someone else. Also, pictures of Barbara McKinzie and Linda White would be great as well. Some AKA activities are closed to the public, that's why I said that. Miranda 06:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I do have a photo of Soror McKinzie at the Alpha Centennial (I'm in it though). I can crop it to just include her. I can upload it, will do sometime this weekend.Knicksfan4ever 06:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I uploaded it here [2], still learning so not sure if I did it correctly. You can edit, etc. Looking for some more, I have so many photos to go through. I haven't been to Howard in years, I will this summer of course. I believe there is a free image out there of the AKA window, will do some searching. I will be off wiki for a bit in the next two weeks, I will be busy at work. Will be in touch.Knicksfan4ever 14:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Added. Miranda 23:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Do you just want a group of sorors distributing the coats at the coat drive for the community service pic?Knicksfan4ever 22:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You can get pictures of Ivy Leaf AKAdemy since it's related to that. Miranda 02:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


OkKnicksfan4ever 13:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The photo listed as Miner Hall is Main Hall-one of the original buildings. It was located where Founders Library now stands. The photo you posted on Howard's wikipedia page shows Miner Hall (on the left--I changed that reference). That image should be used instead.

205.222.248.31 (talk) 15:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)39aka94

Y Done Picture fixed. Also thanks Knicksfan4ever and to Lively for the photos. I have added them and asked graphics lab to enhance the window image to put on the featured layout (sandbox, tree is used as a placeholder at the moment). Once that process is done...I guess we can take a poll to see which day the article should be featured. Miranda 10:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Featured

I advise someone else to nominate this article for featured article, since I am retiring from this project due to a disruptive editor. Miranda 20:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Bridging Toward the 21st Century

I recommend the two paragraphs on the 1991 hazing deaths and lawsuit be deleted. That will help keep the article focused on bigger issues which the sorority is working on. --Parkwells (talk) 04:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)--Parkwells (talk) 13:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Miranda 07:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

National Health Ofc

The text says this was established in New York, then dissolved in 1961 "to incorporate ideals about international service", or something like that (hard to remember). Does anyone know what that means? --Parkwells (talk) 04:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Dissolved to incorporate health into AKA's 5 national points. Miranda 07:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

I happened to participate in the discussion about AfD for this article and ones on the founders. Miranda and others did so much good work on putting this together. The article on the sorority (and each of the founders) can be strengthened, in terms of AfD challenges, by

  1. providing more background, historical and social context (e.g., only 5% of whites went to college), and cites/links to sources that talk about the role and status of Howard and its place in African American education and the building of social capital - so these women's roles can be appreciated.
  2. provide a Background section: to allow placing Howard and these young women in historical context - so the article is about the sorority at Howard and in society, which editors brought out with many of the programs the sorority has supported through the years.
  3. develop some standard background material that can be used for each of the founders;
  4. relate the establishment of the sorority to the growth of fraternal organizations since the Civil War and emancipation;
  5. relate the sorority to the building of social capital - an African American elite and national networks (one of the books relates to that and may have more that could be used);
  6. place individual's lives in context of social changes - for instance, the Great Migration changing where there were populations to be served;
  7. show the achievement of individuals who taught in high school or led departments when most women were expected to teach primary school;

Have also been rereading James Anderson's book about the Education of Blacks in the South, 1860-1935. As the article touches on and some of these women's careers demonstrate in terms of where they lived, they were also part of the massive change represented by the Great Migration, so their teaching in northern cities was just as important. They had the chance to reach so many African American children there and probably children who could be in school for more months of the year.

Only 5% of whites went to college at that time (from Anderson's book). It was only at the turn of the century that Michigan started providing a 4-year college curriculum for its normal colleges and training of teachers, for example. People today don't realize how new and provisional so much education was, both in the North and the South. Everyone considered the role of teachers critical, and the raising of teacher standards also critical. So these young women were important in their persons, in their examples, as well as in what they did.

I think we need to bring out those portions and reduce some of the material more concerned with internal sorority issues. Would like to help.--Parkwells (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Whenever you insert information from a book, please cite the page number, please. Thanks. Miranda 21:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Will do. These women were so impressive.--Parkwells (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Editors have already referenced some of these. I can get to some parts online, perhaps enough for the article.

  1. African American Fraternities and Sororities-Tamara L. Brown, Gregory Parks, Clarenda M. Phillips -U of KY, 2005 (looks like just the sort of academic, scholarly study we had in mind)
  2. "African American Sororities", Greta Hendricks Johnson, grad student, Ferris State U., 2007, an information paper (has a bibliography, inline source cites - some of the basic approach we had agreed on in comments on the AfD. She used Ross, below, among others.) http://www.learningtogive.org/papers/index.asp?bpid=172, retrieved 8 Dec 2007
  3. The Divine Nine - Lawrence C. Ross, Jr., 2000 (about the first nine sororities & fraternities, some excerpts seem to show he leaned heavily on their own materials)
  4. Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class, Lawrence Otis Graham, 1999
  5. The Power of Good Deeds: Privileged Women and the Social Reproduction of the Upper Class, Diana Elizabeth Kendall, Rowman & Littlefield, 2002 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parkwells (talk • contribs) 15:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC) --Parkwells (talk) 15:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I've rewritten the first paragraph to set context. I think the remainder of the lead should have more about the sorority and its leadership through the 20th century, rather than the internal working (how someone gets to be a member) or even the current president. Her name could go below.--Parkwells (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Found some scholarly material to add.--Parkwells (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Members

Somewhere in your excellent references, I saw a long list of women who have been and are members of AKA. Did you consider adding some of them to the article to show the breadth of membership? I noticed the Alpha Phi Alpha article identified some famous members (and know that is sometimes easier to do for men). --Parkwells (talk) 18:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

All of the notable members are listed on the Alpha Kappa Alpha National Website, however, some members that are in the entertainment field, high-ranking officials, etc, prefer to keep their membership unknown to the public. Most of the notable members on the website are honorary and were not initiated in college or through a graduate chapterKnicksfan4ever (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
No not really. Just added the honorary members. I didn't want to overflow the article with trivial information. If they wanted to know about famous members, then they can click the list of famous members. Miranda 19:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. That would be overflow. With the List of Alpha Kappa Alpha sisters page there shouldn't be a need to add it to the the Alpha Kappa Alpha article. Knicksfan4ever (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I've seen the national page and agree.--Parkwells (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

% of People in College

The reason I used the percentages for both African Americans and whites was to show how limited the pool of college students/graduates was - many people don't know or realize how different conditions were then. Most people, no matter who they were, didn't go to college.--Parkwells (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Nellie Quander and Delta Sigma Theta

Due to NPOV, the comment of Nellie Quander putting a deadline on the 22 members of the sorority to drop their plans of another sorority should stay because this led to Delta Sigma Theta forming. Miranda 17:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Miranda. This many years later, I think it would be difficult to say that Quander's deadline was the formative cause, and that sentence doesn't seem to do much for NPOV. There just don't seem to be enough facts to include it, even if this is part of the official sorority history. To an outside reader, it doesn't seem very significant. The women had a different idea for what they wanted from a sorority, so they split off and founded their own. That's what groups do - there have been other sororities founded since then, right?--Parkwells (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
There is. See Delta Sigma Theta's history. You don't want the article to have a veritable bias for one particular set of story, but to have both. Miranda 17:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The fact that both sorority histories repeat the deadline information doesn't make it more significant to an outside reader. I don't belong to either sorority, but am trying to help improve the article in itself. I've had a lot of experience in groups - it is very typical for people to split apart, just as in the proliferation of Protestant sects, for instance. It seems the real issue was that there was a group of people who had a different idea, so they went off and formed their own group. Adding other details seems like too much detail at this late date.
No, Delta and AKA have different histories on how the Delta Sigma Theta was formed. Miranda 18:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

1920-1940

The first paragraph has a lot of internal details - selection of jewelry, pin, etc. that don't contribute to the sorority's notability in society. Maybe it would be better if these were put in a separate section lower in the article - sort of an internal development, or "internal history". They seem like not very important issues here, against the background of social changes.--Parkwells (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Boulé

I noticed the sorority materials have the "é", not "è". I'm trying to fix them all.--Parkwells (talk) 17:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

In the sorority's history book, Boule with "è" is mentioned. Miranda 18:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I fixed it. Miranda 18:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Citations

There are a number of places where you have two citations for what appears to be one factual statement. Only one is needed for verifiability, and it would be best to have it from a third-party source, one that isn't connected to the sorority, if there's a choice.--Parkwells (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Two citations are better b/c it strengthens the argument. Miranda 20:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Also the two facts from one sentence comes from 2 different citations. Miranda 15:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuit for hazing deaths

Was there a decision in the lawsuit? The article keeps you hanging with the info that they brought suit.--Parkwells (talk) 15:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

They made a settlement out of court. You may want to ask an AKA member. Miranda 15:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Founders and Incorporators

You've made terrific additions to the bios for these women. I've enjoyed collaborating with you and have learned a lot! I think there are some founders who may not get separate articles, because of early death, losing touch with the sorority or quieter lives, but we gave them a good shot. Those could be wrapped into one article, if necessary.--Parkwells (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Additions about the split between founders and Delta Sigma Theta

This is way into POV, especially since these additions aren't sourced. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a place to carry out arguments between the two sororities. The additions include too much feeling language (they didn't understand the delicate position...), the indirect "it is agreed...". Who says? Who agrees? More to the point, none of this detail is appropriate to put in the article. At this late date, it's unlikely you could find any source that could "prove" the 22 "wanted to destroy AKA". I don't have a personal stake in this and don't know the sororities, but it appears inappropriate for an encyclopedia to go into this level of detail about a split so many years ago. It's not world history.--Parkwells (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the decision to remove those additions. The section could be shortened more just to report the results of the split.--Parkwells (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
No, not really You added that Deltas wanted to split and model their sorority after Omega Psi Phi without giving sources. If you want to add information about Delta's relationship with Omega Psi Phi, then please add it to Delta Sigma Theta. IMHO, it's 1.) trivial 2.) detracts from the point of the article. 3.) unsourced and speculation without facts. The original revision was sourced. Please leave it at the original revision because I am trying to make this an FA, and don't have time to search for POVish sources which said that the "Deltas wanted to destroy AKA." Miranda 18:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You have me confused with someone else.I didn't have anything to do with those additions, Miranda.--Parkwells (talk) 18:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I thought the IP was you. Sorry. Miranda 18:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
When I was working on my thesis, I also read that the founders of Delta Sigma Theta had formed a bond with the founders of Omega Psi Phi (hence their selection of the violet for their flower) and I believe it was in Paula Giddings book. I'll try to look into it over the next few weeks for clarifications

205.222.248.31 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)39aka94

AKA39, I think that should be on the Delta Sigma Theta page. We are trying to describe the relationship b/n AKAs and Deltas. I have ISOS and I will look into it as well. Miranda 15:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
That's fine. But if I find the reference, I'll provide it for you. (It is also possible that it was in an older edition of the book...)

205.222.248.31 (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)39aka94

Obviously the "split" should be included on both pages, however, I don't think it needs to be a long drawn out story. In both sororites history books, the stories slightly differ Knicksfan4ever 14:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Point of Clarification

The Founders of DST selected the Violet as our official flower because it has a special and significant meaning to Delta Sorors only and not because of the men of OSP. The African Violet is worn by Sorors to symbolize a special bond with the men of OSP. This should in no way imply that the Founders of DST voted to reorganize AKA because of the men of OSP or that the men of OSP had anything to do with the founding of DST. The only difference in the editions of ISOS are the correction of the typos in the book. HistoricDST (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


Suggestion

Hey everyone! It's awesome that so many people are contributing to help this article become a FA. I have an idea, before we make any major edits (I'm guilty of this), let's discuss it here so it can be consistent. Miranda has worked so hard on it, so lets not have her efforts be in vain. Minor edits like grammar, punctuation etc, shouldn't be an issue. If you aren't sure about a particular subject, post it here and we all can help each other out collectively to get this article Featured. The Centennial is fast approaching, it would awesome to have it featured by then. Thanks!!!! Knicksfan4ever 13:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

That is what we are doing now. Look at the talk page's history. miranda 14:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I see some of it, I also see a lot of back and forth, just wanted to put that out there to make sure everyone was on one accord. How long does it usually take to get an article featured? Knicksfan4ever 14:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Language

There are subtle differences between British/Australian and American usage. Americans tend to use "centennial" more than "centenary" for the anniversary. (Confirmed by checking online dictionaries that "centenary" tended to be British usage.) For instance, we celebrated the bicentennial of the US in 1976. Not sure if that makes a difference for the article, but AKA started as an American sorority.

Also, in writing about the percentage of African Americans in college in the early 1900s, I used the phrasing of the original scholar, James D. Anderson, in stating "1/3 of one percent". I think he wrote it that way to emphasize it, not so much because of general practice in expressing percentages.--Parkwells (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
1/3 of 1 percent is too wordy IMHO. miranda 22:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

2002 Deaths at Dockweiler Beach

I modified the narrative slightly to conform to the newspaper articles and police findings, and put the family's contentions in the section on the lawsuit. It's important not to go beyond the facts of the police report. There appeared to be questions about what type of chapter even existed - one newspaper article contended the young women were pledging a citywide chapter; the sorority said the chapter at Cal State LA had been suspended, implying there wasn't another.--Parkwells (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the cite, too. miranda 04:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Great, thanks for fixing that, I wasn't sure how to add the reference, but I definitely thought the fact that the sorority had suspended the chapter prior to the incident needed to be included. Knicksfan4ever 15:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)