Talk:Alonso Pita da Veiga

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[edit] Accuracy?

I can find no mention of this name in any published sources I have on the Battle of Pavia. What I can find:

Francis Hackett, Francis the First: "Then Lannoy reached him. The Flemish viceroy of Naples knelt to the defeated king. He kissed Francis's sword hand, took his sword from him, gave him his own. Francis was his prisoner." (292).

Angus Konstam, Pavia 1525: The Climax of the Italian Wars: "Lannoy, who by then had returned to the scene, is reputed to have ridden into the fray and rescued the king, defending him at sword point from his own men. French sources disagree, and a number of people claimed the glory of capturing the king." (73).

Charles Oman, A History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century: "Francis himself fought fiercely, even after his horse had been killed, was thrown down slightly wounded, and would have been killed by a Spanish foot-soldier if M. de Pomperant, one of the Constable Bourbon's exiled partisans, had not arrived in time to save his life. He was taken before the Viceroy Lannoy, who received his sword..." (212).

It seems clear that, even if this man did claim to have captured Francis, the claim is heavily disputed. At a minimum, (a) this needs to be indicated and (b) some reliable sources for his existence (quite aside from his role at Pavia) need to be cited. Kirill Lokshin 15:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

RECOMMENDATION FOR THE EXCEPTICS: This link has a book in Spanish, Italian and English about the Battle of Pavia and Pita da Veiga's Role in capturing Francis I of France. For only € 15.00 might be worth buying the book and getting your facts right, don't you think so?
Usser: Charles Wessex -- 20:13, 20 August 2006
This web (In Spanish) says that the Emperor Charles I of Spain (i.e.: Kaiser Karl V of the Roman Empire) gave Pita da Veiga a Coat of Arms for being one of the tree guys who captured Francis I.
Usser: Charles Wessex -- 20:16, 20 August 2006
Web sources aren't really acceptable here; for a claim of this magnitude, we need reputable published sources (books by history professors would be good). Kirill Lokshin 20:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This links (In Italian) give a little bit more information about a document which is in the possession of the direct descendants of Pita da Veiga (Madrid) and the book published in Pavia about the historical battle fought in this Italian location, as well as the role of Pita da Veiga in the capture of Francis I.

Usser: Charles Wessex -- 09:56, 21 August 2006

[edit] Yes, Accurate

For instance,

Juan Carlos Losada, Batallas Decisivas de la Historia de España (Decisive battles of Spanish History), Ed. Punto de lectura, 2004 [Pavía, pg 224]:

[...] los soldados imperiales estaban dispuestos a acabar con su vida [la de Francisco I], pero el monarca declaró su condición y se rindió ante los arcabuceros Juan de Urbieta, Diego Dávila y Alonso Pita; eran las 8:20 de la mañana. [...] Finalmente fue trasladado a Madrid, donde fue alojado en la Torre de los Lujanes [...]

Translation:

[...] the imperial soldiers were ready to kill him [Francis I], but the monarch identified himself and surrendered to the arquebusiers Juan de Urbieta, Diego Dávila and Alonso Pita; it was 8:20 in the morning. [...] Finally he was sent to Madrid, where he was accomodated in the Tower of the Lujanes [...]

Juan Carlos Losada is Dr. Historian, extraordinary prize laureate by the University of Barcelona, expert in Spanish military History.

The Spanish version is by far the more reliable and realistic version that I have rode so far, given the time of the battle, the development and the following consequences for the French king. Francis I falling just in front of the feet of a Nobleman, or a high officer during a battle in which around 45.000 men took part? The logic says that he fell among a bunch of simple arquebuisers, who killed his horse, and who faced their 15 minutes of fame. Why Spanish? because probably Francis I, who was a valiant man, being lost and desperate, attacked the core of the imperial army, which was invariabily formed always by Spanish arquebuisiers. And because Spanish sources from the time, and Spanish historians from nowadays say so.

Probably the problems that you have to find such names in the books you own, are a consequence of the ancient tendency to ignore or neglect whatever the remarkable and succesful aspect of the Spanish History, in the best tradition of the anglo-saxon historiography, rather than due the lack of historic accuracy. I also found myself in troubles when I tryied to find (in order to weight points of view) in anglo-saxon sources information about the Siege of Cartagena (the worst defeat in the History of the Royal Navy, 1741), the defeat of Nelson in the Canary Islands (where he lost his arm, 1797) or the Spanish raid in Cornwall in 1595. Sometimes, it is a little bit disappointing entering the english wikipedia to read articles related to the Spanish History. Músico July 10th 2007.