Talk:Allophone (Quebec)

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No, we need two separate pages. The meaning in linguistics is well established, but in Quebec the anglophone/francophone/allophone usage is widespread and standard.

Contents

[edit] Canada vs. Quebec

"The terms anglophone and francophone are used in Quebec, and also sometimes in Canada, to designate people whose first or adoptive languages are English and French, respectively."

While I agree with the preceding paragraph where allophone is used in Quebec and sometimes in the rest of Canada, I think that "francophone" and "anglophone" are used throughout Canada, and not just primarily in Quebec. However, I only have my personal context as an Ontarian with several years of French classes. --timc | Talk 02:22, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Can anyone provide the etymology of this term? Is is all + phone (and if so, why does that make sense), or does allo- mean something in French (besides "hello")? —Triskaideka 19:00, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

All or Allo, meaning "other" in grec. The opposite of homo or homéo meaning "the same". Maybe it should be mentionned in the article?

-- Mathieugp 21:53, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I think so, and I've added it. Feel free to revise it, but I'm wary of calling "homo" the opposite of "allo" in the article -- I think most people would consider "hetero" the oppostite of "homo", and probably wouldn't consider, for example, "allophones" in either sense to be the opposite of "homophones". —Triskaideka 22:25, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] References?

I wonder if anybody has a source showing that the use of the word "allophone" is restricted to Quebec. I would have guessed that it was used throughout Canada.

136.152.196.177 09:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard it used outside of Quebec. In BC, French isn't a reference point. The most common label is probably ESL speaker (English as a Second Language) for non-Anglos. bobanny 20:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed name change: Allophone (person)

This term is used in Australia, too, and I suspect it used in other countries as well. The meaning of a migrant who does not speak the primary language(s) used by their adopted country is definitely a useful one outside Quebec

Sources for usage outside Quebec:
Bischoff, Alexander, Caring for migrant and minority patients in European hospitals: a review of effective interventions Google Book Search
Contemporary Issues in Australian Literature Ed: David Callahan Google Book Search

Obviously, the whole page would need to be revamped to internationalise it. Myk 05:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I propose Allophone (demography). Joeldl (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
There's already a generic page for this term (See Allophone). This page is supposed to be about Quebec allophones, which is different and more popularized than it is in academic disciplines linguistics or demography. --Soulscanner (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The other meaning is in phonetics and probably deserves to be given greater prominence than this meaning. However, at least one source [1] treats it as non-country-specific. Though the source pertains to the French term, it also gives an English equivalent. The previous contributor made the comment that the term is used in other countries as well. Also note that the Russian article ru:Аллофон (этнография) chose the name Allophone (ethnography) with a section on the Canadian context. Allophone as used here is clearly a demographic term.
Any claim that the term is limited to Quebec is absurd, as the term is used by Statistics Canada and as any search for "+Ontario +allophone" on Google will show.
Why persist in saying Aboriginal languages are excluded when the definition from Statistics Canada plainly contradicts that? Find a source.
Finally, very many Canadians who are not immigrants speak other languages as their mother tongue. Of course, they virtually always also speak English or French if they are native-born.
The statement that all immigrants traditionally integrated into the English-speaking community is overbroad, especially without an acceptable source.Joeldl (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The term is used mostly in Quebec to designate speakers of non-official languages. Elsewhere in the world, it is used predominantly in the linguistic context. hence, usage of the word is different in Quebec than elsewhere in the world. --Soulscanner (talk) 00:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Occasionally, a word has two meanings, and one is much more common than the other. That is the case here. It's naïve to say that because it has one meaning, it can't have another. Please provide a source indicating that the word is not used elsewhere. The previous contributor above gave examples of use elsewhere. Joeldl (talk) 01:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The main article allophone shows that the dominant use of the word in most of the world is linguistic. There are plenty of references there. There are many sources there that show that this is the case. In Quebec (and Canada), it is mainly used to refer speaker of non-official languages. I have yet to see this word used this way in any other country. More references and sources from outside Quebec and Canada are required to establish it. --Soulscanner (talk) 01:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
You are the one making the claim that use of the term is restricted in that way. The sources provided say what the word is, and you are making the additional claim that the use of the word is restricted. Joeldl (talk) 01:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Why are you ascribing to me assertion I'm not making? I didn't say usage was restricted: both senses of the word might very well be used everywhere. I'm saying that the predominant usage outside Quebec is the linguistic sense of the term, as documented in the allophone article; that is different that the predominant usage inside Quebec, where the term is one of linguistic identity and mother tongue.That is why we need a separate article on Quebec allophones. I'm also saying that I've yet to see a source outside Quebec or Canada refer to an allophone this way. That doesn't mean it does not exist, it only means that I've yet to see a source that does. If you find one, I'll gladly accept it.
In anycase, this is an article on Quebec allophones, their history, their identity, their demographics, etc. It's not an article on demography per se. --Soulscanner (talk) 01:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
First, I don't think you disagree that the term is used by the federal govenment to refer to people anywhere in Canada. Second, The other source was a general definition applying to people outside Canada as well. The fact that it was a source located in Quebec does not mean that the notion applies only to people located in Quebec, regardless of whether the term is used that way primarily by people in Quebec. Second, we have indications the term is used in Australia in the same meaning.

[edit] Grand dictionnaire entry including English word

Domaine(s) :

- démographie
- linguistique

. français . . allophone n.

Équivalent(s) English allophone .

Définition : Personne dont la langue d'usage (celle qui est parlée à la maison) ou la langue maternelle est différente de la ou des langues officielles du pays où elle se trouve. . .

. Note(s) : D'une étude démolinguistique à l'autre, on tiendra compte soit de la langue maternelle seule, soit à la fois de la langue maternelle et de la langue d'usage, en rapport avec les langues officielles du pays. Par exemple, un hispanophone ou un germanophone est considéré au Canada comme un allophone s'il ne parle ni le français ni l'anglais. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeldl (talk • contribs) 02:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Third opinion request

I've requested a third opinion from WP:3O. I don't want to have interminable discussions as we've had on other subjects in the past. Joeldl (talk) 01:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, this is a dispute? All you need to do is find an academic non-Canadian/Quebecois source that refers to someone outside of Canada as "allophone". Some here mentioned Australia. Is there a reference that does so?--Soulscanner (talk) 01:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying we should write "The term is also used in Australia". That would be unreferenced. I'm saying that the restrictions you are referring to on the use of the term are not supported by the sources. The Grand dictionnaire entry contradicts you on the people to whom the term refers, if not on who uses the term. On that point we have no reliable information. Joeldl (talk) 03:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The source you are citing is from Quebec. It does not address my concern that the term is not used outside Canada in this context. Indeed, all the sources listed in the third-person reference are from Canada. There is no indication that "allophone" is used outside Canada in the context of an official language. As far as I can tell, it is localized academic jargon in Canada outside Quebec, and only in common usage in Quebec becaseu of poitical debates on language. You can refer to Hispanics in the U.S. as allophone, but no one outside Quebec would understand what that you are saying. --Soulscanner (talk) 04:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I gave two sources for non-Canadian usage of allophone as a demographic rather than linguistic term. Are they somehow insufficient? I'm sure I can find more. The demographic usage is fairly common in Australia, where we have substantial non-English-speaking immigrant populations. Myk (talk) 06:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay. I found the paper. It is Swiss, and not Australian. hence claims that Australians use this term is, to say the least, suspect. The reference is (bold letters mine):
'Effectiveness of a professional interpreter service Jacobs and colleagues (2001) are, to our knowledge, the first researchers to report on the effectiveness of professional interpreter services in improving the delivery of health care to a population of allophone patients. (The term allophone is used in this review to describe patients who do not share the language of the professionals caring for them.)'pp. 10-11
Firstly, this is an ad hoc definition, which indicates that the term would generally not be understood by the person reading it (who we can assume is a demographer). This would tend to indicate that the term would be poorly understood by the demographers reading it without the definition.
Secondly, the definition is different than the one generally used and accepted by demographers in Canada. In this paper, the adhoc definition refers to an allophone as someone whose language differs from that of the care giver and requires an interpreter (we should be so lucky in Canada). In Canada, it refers to someone whose language is different from French or English (or one of the official languages). It certainly contradicts the one at the Quebec government website.
To conclude, it indicates that usage among demographers outside Canada is ad hoc. It would argue against an internationalized version of the article, and that the definiton at the Quebec government website is an overgeneralized regionalism. --Soulscanner (talk) 04:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you please provide page references and a relevant quote. I couldn't find the source in the library. I did a Google search on Australia and allophone. All I could find was references to the linguistic definition of the word. I'd also like to see some evidence that the term is generally understood by demographers, perhaps some census data showing the number of allophones in Australia. In other words, could a demographer in Australia use the word without drawing blank stares from a reasonably educated audience of other Australian demographers (i.e. without first defining the word) if they've never been to Canada. --Soulscanner (talk) 04:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Third opinion

I am an American that went to Montreal last month for a couple weeks, and when I saw this brought before WP:3O, thought I might have something to add. After reading the discussion, I quickly became exhausted. So, I am just going to include the uses of the word that I have culled from an online database (by subsciption only) of academic and popular resources. The majority of the uses were linguisitic, but I included about a third of the non-linguistic ones here (even one in French). The source information is also included.

The various elements that make up the individual’s sense of cultural identity require a certain amount of negotiation and management in even the most straightforward of circumstances. This is particularly true for people who have multiple and/or contrasting identity claims. Group interviews with 72 allophone and anglophone Montreal residents were used to find patterns in strategies for negotiating these claims, given that these populations must contend with competing discourses about nation, language, ethnicity/ race, religion, etc. Source: Sklar, Alissa. Strategies of the Self: Negotiating Cultural Identity in Anglophone and Allophone Montreal Paper presented at the annual meeting of the International Communication Association, Sheraton New York, New York City, NY, Online <PDF>. 2006-10-05 <http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p12759_index.html>

This paper presents the first multivariate analysis of the combined effects of region and language on voluntary association membership in Canada. National survey data from 2000 indicate that Quebecers have the lowest average number of memberships, with Western Canadians highest and Atlantic and Ontario residents in between. Preliminary results also confirm that francophones report fewer memberships than anglophones. Findings from Poisson regression models, however, indicate a significant interaction between region and language: francophones have lower membership levels only in Quebec, and in Western Canada have higher levels than anglophones or allophones. These results hold even with controls for a number of possible explanatory factors suggested in the literature, including religious and socioeconomic differences across the regions and language groups. The implications for understanding patterns of voluntary association activity in Canada are discussed. Source: Voluntary Association Activity in Quebec and English Canada: Assessing the Effects of Region and Language Monica Hwang, Robert Andersen and Edward Grabb Canadian Journal of Political Science/Revue canadienne de science politique, Volume 40, Issue 01, Mar 2007, pp 209-232 doi: 10.1017/S0008423907070011, Published online by Cambridge University Press 19 Mar 2007

To determine the prevalence of mood, anxiety, and other disorders in the population of Canadians aged 55 years and over. Method: We undertook an analysis of the Canadian Community Health Survey: Mental Health and Well-Being (CCHS 1.2). Results: There was a linear decrease for all disorders after age 55 years. This was true for men and women; for anglophones, francophones, and allophones; and for both people born in Canada and people who immigrated to Canada after age 18 years. Consistent with previous research, the prevalences were higher for women than men. Immigrants reported fewer problems than nonimmigrants, with the differences decreasing with age. Francophones of both sexes reported more mood disorder than anglophones, but francophone men had less anxiety disorder than anglophone men. Source: The Epidemiology of Psychological Problems in the Elderly. By: Streiner, David L.; Cairney, John; Veldhuizen, Scott. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, Mar2006, Vol. 51 Issue 3, p185-191

Canadian health professionals are witnessing a rising tide of multiculturalism that has seen the number of nonofficial languages spoken across the country hit a record high. Data from the 2001 census show that about 5.3 million people are allophones — people who claim neither official language as a mother tongue. While English and French still predominate, more than 100 languages are being spoken. There has been a spike in the use of Asian and Middle Eastern tongues, particularly Punjabi and Arabic but including rarer tongues such as Twi, spoken in southern Ghana. Overall, 5.4 million of the 30 million people living in Canada were born abroad...But the challenges doctors face today extend beyond literacy into the realm of cross-cultural understanding, and nowhere are they more complex than in Toronto. Census data show that 40% of people residing in Canada's biggest city are allophones (1.898 million residents), a 17.8% increase since 1996. Source: Changing face of Canada is changing the face of medicine. By: Mackay, Brad. CMAJ: Canadian Medical Association Journal, 3/4/2003, Vol. 168 Issue 5, p599

Many constitutional lawyers in English Canada say that, morally and legally, the federal government could not simply turn its back on anglophones, allophones and aboriginals who vote overwhelmingly in favor of remaining within Canada. That could lead to demands to partition Montreal, parts of western Quebec along the Ontario border, the Eastern Townships, and northern regions inhabited largely by the James Bay Cree and the Inuit. Sovereigntists, however, contend that a body of international law, based on decisions by various courts, tribunals and arbitration panels, supports their position that the province's borders cannot be changed. But for many sovereigntists, the debate over borders is more emotional and symbolic than legal. "The language of partition is the language of civil war," says Guy Laforest, a political scientist at Laval University in Quebec City. "Partition pushes Quebec into a corner. It says you either accept the status quo-or it's partition and civil war." Source: Battle over borders. By: Jenish, D'arcy; Hawaleshka, Dan. Maclean's, 2/12/96, Vol. 109 Issue 7, p26

Librarian Van Be Lam spends his working days surrounded by the evidence of his achievement, all 15,000 volumes of it. The books line the shelves outside his office at Montreal's Mile-End Library, a downtown institution in an ethnically diverse area. There are Italian novels, Spanish histories, Greek biographies, collections of Portuguese poetry, works in Chinese and Vietnamese, even a few tomes in the widely spoken but rarely written Haitian Creole patois. "It has taken us 10 years to assemble these books," said Lam, the library's director. He added, betraying a trace of pride: "Look at the language of the titles and you will get some idea of the cultural composition of the communities we serve." Others: In the lexicon of Quebec's linguistic politics, the members of those communities are known as "allophones" -- from the Greek allos, for "other" -- who, like the 50-year-old, Vietnamese-born Lam, have neither French nor English as their mother tongue. Of the 2.9 million people on and around the island of Montreal, one out of five is an allophone, speaking one or more of 35 languages. And their place in the Canadian debate over language policy is ambiguous. Unprotected by the federal Official Languages Act, most allophones acknowledge -- and speak -- French as the day-to-day business language of Quebec. At the same time, most also express a loyalty to a united Canada that they share more closely with Quebec anglophones than with the province's French majority. The distinction is one that many allophones find acutely uncomfortable. As librarian Lam ruefully remarked: "We are like fish forced to swim in two currents." Indeed, associations representing several allophone groups have joined forces to try to make their voice heard in the national language and unity debates. Source: The fear in the middle. By: Came, B.. Maclean's, 4/22/91, Vol. 104 Issue 16, p20

La question de l'apprentissage d'une langue seconde par les immigrants a ete un enjeu politique de premiere importance au Quebec au cours de la deuxieme moitie du XX' siecle. A Montreal en particulier, ou une majorite francophone cohabitait avec une minorite anglophone, les nouveaux citoyens ont eu tendance historiquement a s'assimiler plutot du cote des locuteurs de l'anglais, Apres la Revolution tranquille, un mouvement a emerge parmi les nationalistes francophones pour modifier cette tendance et convaincre les allophones de se joindre a la majorite demographique. Des donnees recentes extraites du recensement canadien de 2001 montrent que les effets des lois linguistiques quebecoises commencent a se faire sentir de plus en plus a Montreal et que, dans ce contexte, la connaissance du fran?:ais a progresse au sein des communautes immigrantes recemment arrivees. Source: Sortie de crise linguistique au Québec: L'apprentissage du français par les immigrants selon les données du recensement fédéral de 2001. (French) By: Anctil, Pierre. Journal of Canadian Studies, Spring2007, Vol. 41 Issue 2, p185

Hope this helps.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 16:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Not really, there is no doubt regarding the Canadian usage of the term. The question is whether there is substantial non-Canadian usage, justifying a more international slant on the article. Myk (talk) 06:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aboriginal languages

Aboriginals are usually refered to as such in Quebec. I've never seen a Cree or Mohawk refered to as an allophone. I've seen no sources that say that aboriginals are considered allophone. The source you cite is the government of Quebec. It designates the official use of the word in Quebec in French, not elsewhere in the world and not in English. --Soulscanner (talk) 00:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The Statistics Canada source says "other than English or French". The Quebec source does not say that the use only applies to residents of Quebec or Canada, in fact is says "whose first language is other than the official languages of the country in which they are located." Of course, the Statistics Canada source restricts to English and French because they are only concerned with carrying out the Census. I have introduced sources. You are contradicting them. Please provide your own sources now, instead of saying what you've seen before or haven't seen. Joeldl (talk) 01:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
As for the comment about "in French": the source gives the English word allophone as an equivalent. Joeldl (talk) 01:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, it is possible that this definition from a government website (hardly academic and authoritative) overlooks aboriginals, as their population is small compared to that of immigrants in Quebec. Moreover, native languages have a special status in Quebec, and they are treated separately in most demographic studies. It is not clearcut. We need a reference to show that speakers of aboriginal languages are counted as allophones in government statistics. I don't now if they do or don't, but I'd like a source that determines this satisfactorily. That being said, the vast majority of allophones will always be immigrants. --Soulscanner (talk) 01:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The definition from Statistics Canada shows clearly how the term is used by them. That is clear cut. Also, you are overstating the immigrant part. Joeldl (talk) 01:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It does not indicate that aboriginals are included in this category. Please show me a reference that explicitly includes aboriginals speaking aboriginal languages as allophone. The reason allophones are counted in Quebec and Canada is to monitor weather they adopt French or English in the home (linguistic transfer) and follow government policies that encourage them to adopt French. In the case of aboriginals, government policy encourages aboriginals to retain their languages, not adopt French.
Nunuvut is an intersting example. Inuktituk is an official language. Does that make the Inuit allophone in Nunuvut? --Soulscanner (talk) 01:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aborignal languages and Allophones: reference

I knew I read this somewhere:

"Aside from natives, who continue to speak in majority their ancestral languages in Quebec, and who constitute a separate category, what allophones have in common is their fairly recent immigration to Quebec. Essentially, Quebec was made up of French, English and Natives at the time of Confederation. But starting from around 1896, immigration of allophones was to become important in Quebec, as it did in the rest of Canada."[2]

So it's clear from this academic source that Aboriginals are not considered allophones in Quebec. I've added this reference to the lead already. I'll fix the reference to include the quote. --Soulscanner (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That contradicts the Statistics Canada and Quebec government references, and as far as I understand is an example of how one (community) college professor used the word in a particular instance. There's an issue of weight here. You should find a source with a definition that excludes Aboriginal languages in order to give it equivalent weight to the other two sources, rather than an example. Joeldl (talk) 02:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The Quebec source does not say that aboriginal languages are included, and neither does the stats can source. You'll note that the academic source uses the same definitions, then explicitly exclude aboriginals. This is in fact standard practice. It's up to you to show that the Quebec government and Stats can explicitly includes aborignals as allophones, and does not list them as a seperate demographic category. --Soulscanner (talk) 02:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I have checked, and aboriginal languages are both considered allophone and as a separate category. However, the vast majority of allophones are immigrants, and all studies say so. There is no mention of native languages in most demographic discussions of allophones, unless it is to exclude them from the discussion. Clearly, their immigrant origins are emphasized, and aboriginal language speakers are discussed seperately. Aborignal identities are considered separate.
"For the first time, allophones, that is, people whose mother tongue is neither English nor French, represented fully one-fifth of the population of Canada, according to the census. These include Aboriginal languages, which will be featured in the 2006 analytical document on Aboriginal Peoples that will be released on January 15, 2008. ... The increase in the share of allophones is mainly related to the number of immigrants who arrived in Canada between 2001 and 2006. During this period, an estimated 1,110,000 newcomers settled here, and four out of five of them were allophone. In total, the census enumerated 6,293,110 allophones, an increase of 18.0%, or 958,265, from 2001. This increase was three times the growth rate of 5.4% for the population as a whole between 2001 and 2006, and well above the 12.5% gain in allophones during the previous five-year period. At the same time, the census counted 18,056,000 anglophones, up 3.0%, and 6,892,000 francophones, an increase of only 1.6%. Both increases were slightly higher than the growth rates registered during the previous five years. Canadians reported more than 200 languages in completing the census question on mother tongue. These include languages long associated with immigration to Canada, such as German, Italian, Ukrainian, Dutch and Polish. However, between 2001 and 2006, language groups from Asia and the Middle East recorded the largest gains. These language groups include the Chinese languages, Punjabi, Arabic, Urdu, Tagalog and Tamil."[3]--Soulscanner (talk) 02:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common sense

I believe Allophone (demography), as suggested by Joeldl, is pure common sense. The contents specific to the allophone population of Quebec could maybe go in Allophones of Quebec? It would make sense to have an article on the Allophones of Canada too I think. -- Mathieugp (talk) 17:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with starting a separate article on demography. I've started a separate article at Allophone (demographics) for discussing allophones in a general context beyond the conext of Canada. I can't really do more for an article like that right now because I have no idea whether the word is used outside the context of the language transfer issue in Quebec. I've done a google search, and all sources using allophone are either from Canada or discuss Canada. All non-Canadian overwhelmingly use the linguistics definition. As for this article, I think the title is fine. I don't object to changing its name, but I think it has served its purpose well for the past few years.
As for an article on anglophones in Canada, I think there would be too much overlap. "Allophone" (or even anglophone or francophone) is not a well understood term outside academic circles the way it is in Quebec. It certainly doesn't define a distinct identity the way it does in Quebec. However, i don't object to starting an article called Allophones in Canada or Allophones (Canada). --Soulscanner (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Soulscanner, you should stop repeating the fact that the meaning in phonetics is more common. Nobody disputes that, but words can have multiple meanings, so that does not say anything about whether it's used by non-Canadians, or to refer to non-Canadians. Joeldl (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
My point goes beyond that. In Quebec, the demographic term is more common. Outside Quebec, the linguistic one is more common and may very well be the only one. I see no evidence that demographers outside Quebec refer to linguistic groups outside Qeuebc or Canada as allophone. I'm not convinced that the definition at the government website is as broad as it claims to be. It could very well be a term restricted to Canadian demographers. Until I see some references showing otherwise, I see no justification for the new article, and I certainly see no reason to change the name of this article. --Soulscanner (talk) 03:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Since at the moment there is no significant content concerning other countries, I'm not opposed to leaving the two in the same place. If more non-Canadian content were added at a later time, then Allophone population of Quebec could be in order. What I would like is for the definition used to reflect the most general definition given in the sources (the one in the Grand dictionnaire). Then proceed to talk about the frequency of use of the term in terms of a) what countries' residents the term applies to; and b) which countries' demographers use the term, with all that information either being sourced or reasonable enough that we all agree on it. I do not agree that the term excludes speakers of Aboriginal languages. That contradicts the sources at Statistics Canada and the Thésurus de l'activité gouvernementale (a source which I had put on the page but that Soulscanner has removed.) I also do not agree that allophones are "usually immigrants". In Canada, that might be about 80% of them. Even if that were true, it wouldn't belong in the first sentence. Joeldl (talk) 07:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I did not delete the source; I moved it to another page. Definitions given at Quebec government websites are hardly without ideological and cultural bias. It is unclear to me, for example, whether the generalized definition found there really applies beyond Quebec or Canada as is implied. The government of Quebec and its institutions tend to have a prescriptive ideology as opposed to descriptive one towards language usage generally employed in English media and academia. --Soulscanner (talk) 03:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
As for changing the name of the article, I see no reason for it. Quebec is the only place where the demographic sense of the word predominates, so it becomes a question of semantics. This title has worked fine for years, and it would take more than small semantic points to justify a name change. It's hardly worth discussing. --Soulscanner (talk) 03:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Government sources are regularly considered reliable. A demographic definition like this has nothing to do with POV. At this point, we've got the government Thésaurus and the OLF on one hand and Soulscanner's say-so on the other. Also, there is a simple reason the Statistics Canada website doesn't mention a more general definition: they are concerned with a census of Canada only. Their definitions of other words, like immigrant, specifically refer to Canada as well. It's not "a person who settles in a new country" or anything like that, because they're only concerned with the census. Joeldl (talk) 05:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
There really is no contradiction here. The government Thesaurus is there to prescribe how the term is to be used in Quebec. It is a regional dictionary.I fully recognize that it prescribes usage within the Quebec government. Within that context, an allophone is someone who doesn't speak English or French. However, within an internatonal context you really should point out that the definition does not apply to, for example, Switzerland. In that way, the government definition is misleading. By overgeneralizing in a dry, pedantic exercise, the definition gets around what allophones really are in Canada: immigrants whose mother tongue is neither French or English. That is the most common usage in Canadian English. --Soulscanner (talk) 07:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
You're incorrect in saying that every allophone is an immigrant. That's not part of the definition for Statistics Canada or the Quebec governemnt. Also, the Grand dictionnaire is not solely for government use. For example, it also records usage in other countries such as France or the United States. See the entry for freeway for example: [4]. Surely that's not for "Quebec government use". These OLF terminological resources are intended for use by the public, not just the government. And as for Switzerland, there are in fact uses of the word in its demographic sense in the Swiss context, in both English and French, on Google Scholar. Joeldl (talk) 02:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Before this discussion goes on, please acknowledge that I never said that every allophone is an immigrant. Quite the opposite.
Usage of "Freeway" is interesting, but I'd like to see documentation of "allophone" outside Quebec using this definition. So far, I've found six definitions that document usage in Canada and nowhere else, and emphasize that it is usually in reference to Quebec. We've already found a Swiss use in demographic literature that uses a different ad hoc defintion than the Canadian defintions here. I think that more than justifies mention of Quebec in the first line. --216.228.209.2 (talk) 19:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionaries show Allophone (demographic) is a Canadian and Quebec regionalism

All dictionaries and academic references show the second sense of the definition to be a Canadian and especially a Quebec regionalism, and agree with the definition given on this page.

- Farlex - 2. or Allophone Canadian A person whose native language is other than French or English. [5]
- Merriam Webster (no demographic definition) [6]
- Wordweb - 2. [Cdn] An immigrant to Québec whose first language is neither English or French [7]
- MSN Encarta - 2. Canada Quebec immigrant: an immigrant in Quebec who speaks neither English nor French as a first language
- Oxford - allophone, n.2: Esp. in Quebec: a non-native Canadian whose first language is neither French nor English. [8]arch_id=FUSn-0lvukq-20729&hilite=20000380]
- Global Tranlations - Allophone: A resident of Quebec who speaks a first language other than English or French [9]
- Websters - In Québec, an allophone is a person whose mother tongue is a language other than French (Francophone) or English (Anglophone).[10]

I think the OED definition is most authoritative, as it explicitly documents usage. The Quebec government site stands alone in generalizing this definition; I doubt that this regional dictionary documents English (or even French) usage of this word outside Canada. --Soulscanner (talk) 07:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt it's most common in Canada. But we'd have to see exactly what a dictionary like the Oxford says in its introduction about whether their notation means primarily or only used in Canada. If possible, could you quote the part of the Oxford where they describe the use of regional labels? Also, even if it is a "regionalism" as you put it, that doesn't mean that "In Quebec" has to be in the first sentence. For example, truck, in its North American meaning, is a US/Canada regionalism not used elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Yet the first sentence of Truck says what a truck is. Only afterwards does it go into distinctions by country. Also, none of this means that Allophone (Quebec) is a more appropriate title than Allophone (demographics), since the second one disambiguates the term just as effectively. Joeldl (talk) 02:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The Oxford dictionary is clear. It limits usage to Canadians. It does no apply in Australia or any other country. It is not understood elsewhere in Canada outside of academic circles. Since all definitions specifically mention Quebec, I think it justifies mentioning Quebec in the first line. --216.6.204.62 (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)