Talk:Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden

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[edit] Delete this page

This page should be deleted and its relevant content merged to the OBL page where it was removed from in the first place. It is nonsense to claim this topic is "hotly disputed" and it is even more nonsense to cite a google search as evidence for that. It is not hotly disputed among any experts on terrorism, bin Laden, intelligence, or the CIA. While there is no doubt that US involvement in Afghanistan prior to the 1990s helped those who were fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, some of whom were Afghan Arabs, the claim that the US funded bin Laden or al Qaeda is nonsense and has been rejected by every official source and every actual scholar on the issue. Having a page like this promotes a fringe conspiracy theory and gives it credibility. This page needs to be deleted forthwith, or, if it stays, should be rewritten completely so that it is not about "allegations" and "denials" but simply about conveying accurately the information that is known. csloat 23:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


Cannot agree. The page does not give much credence to the theory at all. And as the note you deleted says:
for example, searched on Google 8-16-2007 the phrase "cia trained bin laden" produces 1,090 hits, "cia created bin laden" produces 986
The idea is out there. Deleting the article won't make it go away.
The article was created because both the Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda articles had big sections on it and at least the ObL page had a big debate in the talk page. It also was relevent to the Afghan Arabs article.
My idea was not to promote the theory but to gather together all the allegation and denials from two different articles in one big article and sort them out for everyone to see.
It is certainly true that "experts on terrorism" are not debating this issue but if wikipedia was devoted only to issues of interest to experts it would be much smaller than it is. wikipedia should include issues of interest to people who don't know about that issue and want to find out. --BoogaLouie 16:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Commodore_Sloat"


I could see a case for merging it with the Operation Cyclone article. --BoogaLouie 15:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
BTW you want to see some POV take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency#Afghanistan, and at the Operation Cyclone history to see what that looked like before I cleaned it up. --BoogaLouie 15:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
That's probably a good merge except most people have no idea what that operation is. The thing about all this is that it's not just allegations and denials -- it is a complex narrative that suggests the CIA is implicated heavily in the rise of al Qaeda, but never actually met with them, trained them, or transferred any money to them. But the Reagan Administration rewarded Arab governments who pledged to do something about the Soviets in Afghanistan, and those who did, esp. Saudi Arabia, funded and supported what became a pan-Arab mujahideen. I didn't mean to suggest that only "experts" were worthy of comment here, but that the studied conclusions of those experts weighed much more heavily than the ravings of conspiracy theorists, left or right. I think if we keep the page as it is, it should be restructured as a chronological narrative rather than a he-said/she-said debate. Some of that debate will have to be kept, but that could be part of a brief introduction that indicates clearly that the experts (and journalists) who have studied the issue find the conspiracy theory unpersuasive. csloat 19:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I'll put brief explanations and "for main article see ..." links to it in the ObL , al-Qaeda, CIA, and Afghan Arabs articles and any other articles that need it.--BoogaLouie 16:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Nor did I. I mean wikipedia should not/cannot be a place where only issues that experts have deliberated upon and found merit are mentioned; and if people find nothing about some idea, then they will know that wikipedia in its wisdom has decided the idea is nonsense. People will not assume that at all, they will just keep looking. If people are talking about it we should too, and in the process of explaining it in a NPOV manner demonstrate that it is nonsense. --BoogaLouie 16:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
the structure now gives the denials the last word (and a quite convincing last word I think) which is is as it should be. --BoogaLouie 16:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
But the structure itself is problematic. As I said, we'd be much better off with a chronological narrative that mentions the allegations and the responses to them in passing rather than a he-said, she-said structure that gives a sense of equivalence to both sides. Do you disagree? Also, please don't rearrange my words. Thanks. csloat 01:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
OK go ahead and chronologicalize the structure. I think it is OK the way it is, but chronology won't hurt either. Then I think we should make it a section of Operation Cyclone. --BoogaLouie 15:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, this page should be deleted! Wikipedia is turning into a pile of crap really.

I've seen "alleged support" from Libya, North Korea, Cuba and other countries to Al-qaeda lately without any sources while something as obvious as the US financing Bin Ladin is now going from fact to "allged fact"... Kill this page or kill Wikipedia.

[edit] Proposed merger of Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden with Operation Cyclone

I propose we make Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden a section of Operation Cyclone. Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden is a narrow topic and assistance to ObL would have been part of Operation Cyclone.

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

  • Support for reasons stated above. --BoogaLouie 17:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support The only context in which this page is discussed is covered by the article for the CIA operation. The question of arms and training for Muj in Afghanistan is it's topic and the question of one recipient is too narrow to deserve it's own branch. Attriti0n (talk) 04:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose It would blur the lines between what is admitted (U.S. support to Afghan mujahadeen) and what is an allegation (U.S. support to non-Afghan mujahadeen). Also, the size of this article would swamp the other article. And also, this article has a broader scope than Cyclone - surely there have been allegations of CIA assistance to OBL post-1989? Corleonebrother (talk) 19:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delete CIA bomb manual

"According to Russian sources, the perpetrators of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 allegedly used a manual allegedly written by the CIA for the Mujahideen fighters in Afghanistan on how to make explosives."


There are no "Russian sources" of this claim. A Russian magazine mentions the claim being made by John K. Cooley. As far I can tell, Cooley, and only Cooley is the one making this claim. In the reference to his book, he cited "various media sources" from around Jan-Mar 1994, New York Times, LA Times, CBS reports, etc. He cannot even mention a specific one? I have to look through them myself? Ok fair enough, so I went through various articles from papers he listed and not a single one of them mentions a CIA manual. The sources mention many various types of bomb making manuals, while some listed he had military manuals in his possession. OK fair enough, i did a little more digging. This story first appears to originate in the legal defense for one of the wtc bombers, who was apparently trying to give the excuse that he was a Afghan War veteran and that is why he possessed the manauls, not because he was planning on blowing anything up, and he was unaware that the people he was hanging out with were planning on bombing the wtc.

Military manuals are not CIA manuals. Military manuals, while classified, are usually easily available online.

If you want to opine this demonstrates blowback from U.S. support for the Mujahadeen, thats fine, thats a perfectly valid opinion. What the author of this highly charged book is doing, however, is deliberately spinning historical information, to give the impresssion the CIA was working closely and training the very terrorist who would attack us later. I'm sorry, but that is not a historically sound claim.

Plus, this CIA manual sounds alot like a Soviet Inspired misinformation campaign that still finds its way around to this day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Army_Field_Manual_30-31B

Ditto. It wasn't a CIA manual and it wasn't used to produce the WTC bomb in 1993. These are the only claims made by the source that get him onto this page and they are both known to be BS as per every researched account of the WTC bombing. Deleted. Attriti0n (talk) 04:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Database

Robin Cook ... wrote in The Guardian on Friday, July 8, 2005, ... Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.[8]

He did indeed write this, although the fact that it is a clear misinterpretation of a a foreign word and its prevalence should mean it isn't worthy of being cited here.

Arabic speakers have undoubtedly used the word "base" as you would expect them to in Afghanistan for centuries. The fact remains though that in 1998 the only relevant "al Qaeda" was formed at a documented meeting and the membership list was comprised of those present, not drawn from any previous list.

Pentagons existed in the US prior to the US military laying the slab for that building too. However like this Arabic term, they weren't an integral part of the organisation that followed and the only relevance one can see is to those who cannot understand the prevalence of the word. Attriti0n (talk) 05:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

You're little Al Qaeda denialist movement really needs to start doing some research in some academic databases. Al Qaida was being used to describe Bin Laden's organization as early as 1994. It took prevalance after the 96 Khobar Tower bombing. It in no way originated in 1998. Some say it was "the Base" as a list of all Bin Laden's contacts when he went back to Saudi Arabia. Some say its "the foundation" as an Islamic Foundation. Whatever it is, it surely was Bin Laden's name for his group after he left Afghanistan.Chudogg (talk) 15:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Al Qaeda = The Database is wrong

Al Qaeda means The Base. Qaedat Al Maloumat means Datebase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.42.2.11 (talk) 14:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Robin Cook quote should remain anyway. If you can find a reliable source that states clearly that it means 'the base' and not 'the database', then we should include this as a reference to back up a sentence like: "X has pointed out that this is a mistranslation; Al Qaeda in fact means 'the base'" - which would go directly underneath the quote. Corleonebrother (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pakistani letter regarding US involvement with Mujahadeen

I noted with interest the following letter from the New York Times from http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/19/opinion/lweb22pakistan.html?ref=opinion

Re “Militants Escape Control of Pakistan, Officials Say” (front page, Jan. 15)

Suicide bombing is a phenomenon imported from Iraq and Afghanistan, alien to Pakistan. The strategy to support the Afghans against Soviet military intervention was evolved by several intelligence agencies, including the C.I.A. and Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI.

After the Soviet withdrawal, the Western powers walked away from the region, leaving behind 40,000 militants imported from several countries to wage the anti-Soviet jihad. Pakistan was left to face the blowback of extremism, drugs and guns.

The post-9/11 intervention in Afghanistan led to a further inflow of extremists and terrorists from Afghanistan. As Pakistan’s national security objectives have changed, so have the policies and personnel of ISI. Since 9/11, the Pakistani Army, including the ISI, have been in a front-line role in the fight against terrorism, capturing more than 700 Qaeda operatives, including most of its top leaders.

The ISI has played a pivotal role in aborting several terrorists’ plots against Western countries. It works closely with the agencies of allied countries.

Like the United States and NATO forces in Afghanistan, Pakistan also faces challenges in fighting the terrorists in a difficult terrain. Tactics often evolve through trial and error. Anti-insurgent capacity has to be built up. Yet, given our role and sacrifices, Pakistan’s commitment to combat terrorism cannot be questioned.

Munir Akram
Ambassador and Permanent Representative
Pakistan Mission to the U.N.
New York, Jan. 17, 2008

emphasis mine--scanlyze

I suggest that the quote, "The strategy to support the Afghans against Soviet military intervention was evolved by several intelligence agencies, including the C.I.A. and Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI. After the Soviet withdrawal, the Western powers walked away from the region, leaving behind 40,000 militants imported from several countries to wage the anti-Soviet jihad. Pakistan was left to face the blowback of extremism, drugs and guns," is authoritative and relevant to the subject and could/should be considered for inclusion in the article.

Scanlyze (talk) 15:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)