Talk:Alizée/Archive Mar 2006

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Regarding Third Album

Should a new speculative page regarding Alizée's third album be created, which will have all speculations/rumors and tantalizing clues, including but not limited to the release dates and possible collaborations, that sorround her comeback album? --Soumyasch 09:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Or that a portal be created to coalesce all information regarding the said album? --Soumyasch 09:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

WoW Night Elf Dance

Mention should be given that the Female Night Elf dance in World of Warcraft was inspired by her choreography. --129.100.194.142 11:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you please give a reference to definitely prove that? --Soumyasch 11:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is taken from her dances just watch J'en ai marre and look same time on a female night elf. /// 03/01/06

that would be the 1st mars 2006 ;)

Is it not possible the dances were independently choreographed? I have seen Lili's performance and played the game as well. Though there are similarity in steps, none looks the copy of other. In fact, I had even read somewhere that there exists one style of dance similar to the ones in question. It may be possible both were inspired by the same style. --Soumyasch 07:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to point out, if you watch the J'en Ai Marre live performance videos (the actual music video has no choreography) at around 3:25 into it, it is the exact steps used in the female night elf dance. The only difference is that Blizzard did not copy the hand movements exactly as Alizée does them. You can also see some steps from the female night elf dance in the video for Jai Pas Vingt Ans, though not the same move as the one from J'en Ai Marre, and not as pronounced as the female night elf does them.

You can fnd both videos on Google Video.

Could they be from the same style of dance? Yes. But, is it a coincidence that they would both (Blizzard and Alizée) use the same steps... just Alizée in different dances, and Blizzard in the same dance? Possibly. Is it highly likely this is a coincidence? Not really. The entire dance from the night elves may not be from Alizée's dance repertoire, but it does seem like at least some moves were inspired by some moves Alizée has done on stage and video.--7:31 EST March 2, 2006

Well then they both (Blizzard and Alizée) have settled the scores...lol...

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dancing also has information on the dances. Apparently a Blizzard poster on the Blizzard forums also confirmed it back in December, but the forums have auto-deleted the thread and the waybackmachine doesn't have it.

Should this info needs to be put into the article somewhere? --Soumyasch 14:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I can try and get confirmation about it. But it might be something to consider putting in as something like "Alizée's choreography has been rumored to have been the inspiration for at least part of the dance sequence used by the female Night Elf characters in World of WarCraft, published by Blizzard Entertainment" And just link the appropriate parts. If I can get the verification through my contacts, I will let you know.

I am putting this info as an unconfirmed rumor. Please as references if you can find. --Soumyasch 14:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I have a video of her dancing, and there is one part of the dance that is exactly the same as the night elf females' dance. It's a rather large file, but if I find it uploaded on the net somewhere I'll post it.--Stiverton 20:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Alizé

There exists a brand of alcoholic drink by the name Alizé. Does it need a mention when describing the namesake of Alizée? My vote is against. I just wanted to know others opinions. --Soumyasch 11:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I learned about the alcoholic drink Alizé by someone mentioning it when I talking with a number of people about the "J'en ai Marre" sexy dance video. I now enjoy Alizé with my meals at a local French restaurant. So I say, yes, keep the comment in. Not all can be black or white when it comes to such a great and inspiring entertainer such as Alizée. I enjoy learning about the little nuances about Alizée's life, rumors about her, her videos and music and even a namesake alcoholic drink. --User: Cybersoil 9:21, 23 March 2006

Images

The images of J'en Ai Marre and J'ai Pas Vingt Ans (in pic gallery) have been taken from these videos and NOT from their English versions. Even though the videos are more or less same, the titles should not be changed, as it will amount to a violation of copyright. --Soumyasch 07:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The videos for each are exactly the same, actually, until they show close ups of her singing in French or English, anyway. I truly doubt most people would know she had English versions of the songs. I can get pics from the I'm Not Twenty Version and the I'm Fed Up version, if it is really necessary for them to be from the different versions.

Some sequences are different in the two versions. Also, I don't feel it to be necessary to put in shots of both the versions. But I feel it should be correctly mention of which version it was taken from. --Soumyasch 12:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Alizee career over?

Rumours have it that Alizee's career might be over according to The Alizee Forum Site (unofficial)--jonphamta 04:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

There is enough information in the same forum site to suggest otherwise, as well. --Soumyasch 10:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no real information. In staying objective, i kept the unpublished 2004 interview as a lead to her future plans. However, this interview is more then likely to be fake, because of what i keep saying and Soumyasch keeps deleting: No artist gives such important information without being paid for it, and a contract saying it will be published.

What i'm saying is, that without that interview, you don't have a heck of a lot left to support any other idea then that at this point everything is pointing in the direction that Alizée is going to raise her daughter. The recent gossip in the magazines is merely drawn from what reporters have read in forums. We already know that Voici regulairly gets information from fan-forums, and that other gossip magazines start to repeat what Voici said, is merely the domino effect gossip. At Alizée-fanpage forums someone mentioned the possibility of Alizée being married in Las Vegas long before Voici had any clue.

The fans have been really desperate since the OS went offline, and from that point on, rumor after rumor have been coming up and going down. It bothers me to see the fan community in such dispair, and what i find absolutely horrible is that over the pas few months, people have been pretending to be "In the know". The fakers have brought the fans to a level of trust where now these false rumors are posted here as if they would still be relevant information.

Ofcourse when someone claims that he is "in the know", and gives us that what we want to hear, it's hard to say: He's fake. But on the other hand, there have been at least 3 people directly claiming to be the "bringers of the good news", and all of it has not delivered anything to support their claims but false information.

There have been people calling dates as far back as August 2005.... Then in August the Official site went offline, and then it was November when Alizée would release the first single... The album is already finished, was what was claimed late November...

A cheaply made photoshopped fake single cover was posted at one point...

December, January, February... Each month has a new false rumor...

Is anyone else getting the feeling that we're being fucked over by a bunch of attention whores?--Frits van Houten 19:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What I am saying is that Wikipedia article is not a place where personal opinions should be posted to bias public feeling either way. If you haven't noticed I have NOT deleted anything which you claim to be a fact; I have ONLY deleted opinions which tend to bring in a biased POV. Whenever I edit the section in question (Future), I have always said that each claim made is unverified. It IS a fact that Alizée's return is speculated, so I have kept it. But am against detailing the rumored speculations, as they are NOT a fact. Also personal opinions should not be put into encyclopaedia articles. --Soumyasch 19:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In regard to what you have said, I am also saying that the interview is more than likely to be fake. What I am bothered with is you saying No artist gives such important information without being paid for it, and a contract saying it will be published, because it is your personal opinion and not a fact. I am not saying you should stop preventing people from getting carried away by the rumors. What I am saying is that Wikipedia is not a place to do so. --19:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Speculated dates for third album

I am removing the lines which say that Alizée's third album is probably releasing in April. There has been no official word on this, nor is there any factual evidence which might point to this conclusion. The date is only a hope. So I have replaced the dates with a more generalized statement that she is slated to return in 2006. --Soumyasch 10:43, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Citations

There were three citations in the Personal Life section. I removed then and replaced them with an equivalent phrase, beacuse the quotes were from english translations of her interviews and thus could not be directly attributed to Alizée. --Soumyasch 09:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review

I think this is time we go in for a peer review, so that we may get this article to a status of a featured article candidate. What do you think? --Soumyasch 10:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No one raised an objection. So I am doing it. --Soumyasch 00:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

She'll be back

However, it seems likely to assume that at some point in the future "She'll be back".

I removed this line, as there was no reference or citation supporting the claim. --Soumyasch 00:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Birth name

Alright the last name might be Jacotey (weird as a French spelling, but you never know with Corsicans), but according to [1], her birth prénom is indeed Jennifer. deeptrivia (talk) 01:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see [2] and the references there, and the transcripts of her interviews here. --Soumyasch 01:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops. My bad. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 01:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Charts Updated

Noting that there were more countries where her singles were on, I updated the singles chart. - An Alizée Fan, 15 March 2006

I formatted the chart to fit better on 1024x768 screen without horizontal scrolling. --Soumyasch 09:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Updated the Albums section by adding in a chart of how well they performed in some countries. - Piece Of Paradise, formerly An Alizée Fan, 15 March 2006

Welcome to Wikipedia, Piece of Paradise. You do not have to include the reference for every table, just below it. You can put the link in the References section at the bottom of the page. And as of this particular reference to www.alizee-fanpage.com, it is already listed in the reference. So there is no need of duplicating it elsewhere in the article. --Soumyasch 13:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for welcoming me, and sorry for that. I'll try to help out here, unless of course I get blocked because someone else did something stupid and he has the same I.P. address as me. - Piece Of Paradise, 21:11, 15 March 2006

Alizée's Future

The revision regarding Alizée's future by Frits Van Houten had some structural glitches, and I made some edits to it, to state the same facts minus the seemingly biased POV. I am writing the rationale behind doing it.

In what was claimed to be an unpublished interview with Alizée herself, from November, 2004 Alizée would supposedly have said that this new album would be more in the style of rock music. However, the validity of this interview has never been verified, and it should be noted that celebrities of Alizée's status normally don't give interviews without being paid and/or having a signed contract saying it will be published.

The second line (it should be noted...) shows one's personal opinion to a general practice, and is not a verifiable claim. This is not from a neutral point of view, and hence should not be included in the article.

Since the following information is almost 3 years old, it doesn't say anything about Alizée's plans today

Just because the information is old, it does not mean it will become irrelevant in today's context, specially when no action is visible to suggest either ways.

So, at this point nobody besides Alizée herself can say what her plans for the future really are.

In addition to Alizée, her production team will have some information, even though it might not be as exhaustive as what she knows. So, it is better to say that "her future plans can't be confirmed right now" (or something similar) rather than pinning it down to who knows and who doesn't.

The article claims this interview to be unofficial and unverified. But it is claimed here that the interview was official. This is a reference against what is claimed in the article. I am not removing it but am bringing it up for discussion. There is also no reference for the pre-tour interview mentioned.

In addition, the flow of the section was not coherent. First it dealt with present scenario, then moved back 2 years, then further 1 year, then to present again. I tried to fix it by first describing the present situation, then the situations which led to the current belief (the two interviews mentioned) chronologically. But there can be a better structure.

The old version can be seen here and the version with my edits here.

--Soumyasch 18:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

These seem like sound changes and I think they improve the article. It would be good if others voiced their opinion so that we can get consensus. Everyone please stop revert warring, as this is not likely to get any disputes resolved. In fact, revert wars have a way of turning into personal vendettas that don't help us write a better encyclopedia article at all. Officially the rule is WP:3RR, however personally I stick to a 1RR principle, and let the rest be determined by consensus. Being pushy about "your" version is only going to turn editors against you. jaco plane 20:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the changes have been reverted twice within two hours of their inception, by Frits van Houten. --Soumyasch 20:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Requesting Clarification

Frits van Houten, could you please explain why are you so intent on putting in your opinions to bias this article, when it should be kept neutral? --Soumyasch 19:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Alizee

Nothing i said was personal opinion, and certainly not vandalism.

The edits you constantly make come from a point of view based upon the same talks i've seen Alizée fans discuss for almost a year, in relation rumors about a 3rd album. Your edits show a clear personal preference to believe that the third album is coming in a few months. That's personal opinion, and while i admit that i am sceptical, my sceptisizm is closer to objectivity then hope and belief.

There is no objective reason to say "Probably within this year".

Also, the gossip magazines such as VOICI have been known to get their info from fan-forums. The marriage for one, was first suggested in Alizée-fanpage's forum months before Voici wrote an article about it.

The 2004 interview was merely claimed "official" only because someone in the fan community said it was. That's not ojectivity. That interview is practically 80% to wich all the rumors are based. Alizee-fanpage is not an official source.

I'm merely pointing out that in one of the last official interviews, Alizée stated that if the 2nd album wasn't going to be equally succesfull as the first, then a 3rd album wasn't going to happen, and that this technically is where official news left off.

T. Hendriks from www.Gourmandises.nl probably still has the article.

In that interview in 2003, she also said that she'd like to have a baby when she's 20, and look where we are now.

All i did was clear the fog of lies and rumors. That some Alizée fans have grown so emotionally attached to these false rumors that they can't see that it is not objective to talk about them as if they were more then just grains of sand in a beach full of false information, is sad for them, - but not my problem.

Do i hope a 3rd album is coming? Orcourse i do. Infact, i'm quite frustrated myself about the complete silence, but i prefere to stay silent and wait objectively for official news, rather then nitpicking and putting my hopes up again and again everytime one jackass or another claims to have inside information about Polydor and Alizée's plans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frits van Houten (talk • contribs).

I agree that gossip columns and fan forums are not reliable sources. We should stick to including the information we can verify, at least for the information where we are having trouble finding consensus. jaco plane 21:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

But she is speculated by the fan community, with support from a few recent articles in gossip magazines, to make a comeback in the near future, with the release of a new album, that may be available as early as this year.

Doen this mean I am saying that the album is coming out this year? No it does not. It means that the fans speculate it to come out this year. Isn't it a fact that the fans do so?

In an interview that was taken just before her concert tour in 2003, Alizée said that if her second album doesn't achieve sales comparable to that of the first, she perhaps won't do a third album. But there has been no further follow-up information from her regarding the same.

Only a few lines above you have said, regarding this interview, that this technically is where official news left off. Am I saying any different?

However, in what was claimed to be an unpublished interview with Alizée herself, in November, 2004, Alizée supposedly has said that she is doing a new album, which is more in the style of rock music. It should be noted that the validity of this interview has never been verified.

Haven't I pointed out that the interview is unofficial and unverified?

Many ohter rumors, regarding her possible third album, had surfaced in the last one year, only to turn out to be false.

Am I saying that each and every rumor is to be believed to be true?

So, at this point, Alizée's future in singing career remains fuzzy and unless she comes out with an official announcement, nothing can be definitely said.

Am I saying she is returning this year?

Now let me quote some of your statements.

...it should be noted that celebrities of Alizée's status normally don't give interviews without being paid and/or having a signed contract saying it will be published
...Some fans seem to have have great difficutly dealing with the current break from music Alizée is taking, wich might explain why there have been so many false rumors and speculations over the last year.
However, it seems likely to assume that at some point in the future "She'll be back".

Aren't these clearly your personal opinion, which do NOT have a neutral Point of View?

I haven't deleted any of the facts that you mentioned, and have actually used many of your edits (like your change to probably this year) to give the article its present state. Its only your biased comments that I have deleted, and restructured the sentences to give a better flow to the section. And doesn't reintroducing biasness constitute vandalism? You are most welcome to make changes as long as you stay neutral.

--Soumyasch 21:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I took up your lead on making the statement it should be noted that celebrities of Alizée's status normally don't give interviews without being paid and/or having a signed contract saying it will be published less assertive and slightly reworded it to say that it's not very plausible that an artist would do an interview with such information if it is not to be published. I am convinced such a statement is justified enough. Also, I removed the word Technically, with which you started the section. I felt its not needed. And I apologize for misinterpreting your (earlier) statement to be as if making a claim. Well, if it was me, it could have been anyone else. Its good for the sake of the article that the issue got sorted out. --Soumyasch 21:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you get a reference?

T. Hendriks from www.Gourmandises.nl probably still has the article.

Could you please get a reference to that article for the references section? That would only benefit the article. --Soumyasch 21:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I will contact Mr. Hendriks. I'll post the info on date and magazine title as soon as i have his reply. --Frits van Houten

Picture gallery

I have changed the picture gallery to include only screen captures of Alizée's music videos and performance videos. As long as the picture gallery contains such pictures only, that too one screenshot per video, it would be easier to give a fair use rationale for the pictures, as the rationale for using one image applies for others as well. So please make sure only pictures which meet this criterion are included in the gallery. I am making a template which details the fair use rationale of the images. Please include the template in all the images that are featured in the gallery. The template, which can be used by including {{Alizée Picture Gallery Rationale}}, can be previewed here.

Template:Alizée Picture Gallery Rationale

The template displayed here is only for previewing and does not apply to this page.

--Soumyasch 09:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Airline

I noticed that Air France was written as the airline that started the competition. That's wrong, it's actually "AOM". "Air Outre Mer", as it is called, is a former French airline partly acquired by Swissair. - Piece (Piece Of Paradise) 11:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Les Enfoirés

Do you think Alizée's charitable performance in Les Enfoirés needs to be somewhere put in the article? Should it be put in the Career section or a new section for Charity (or something similar) be created? --Soumyasch 14:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I included that in the Personal Life section, because I couldn't find a better place to put that info, and couldn't write enough to justify a new scetion. If you feel you can contirbute in this regard, please do and spin it off to a separate section if you feel like. Also I have said Alizée is actively involved in charity. But I am not sure if I should use is. I used present tense because I feel if a person ever does something charitable, she will always be a supporter of charity works. Even if the person doesn't do anything notable, it doesn't mean she is not doing something minor. Still, if somebody feels this is not correct, please go ahead and edit it into past tense. --Soumyasch 16:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course! Because Alizée, like other performers, has donated many hours of her time and talent to such a worthy cause as helping feed the poor it should be noted. It shows that not only is she extremely beautiful, sexy, and charming but she also has a kind heart. So yes, indeed, I think her devotion to charity is well worth noting. I've also noticed that you've already included it in her article. Good job!!! --User: Cybersoil 7:00pm PST, 23 March 2006

Reviews

As per the peer review, the article needs a (professional) critique on Alizée's music, i.e, comments (both positive and negative) from professional reviewers should be presented. Can someone please help find reviews (English or French) which speaks on her style of singing (and not any song in particular)? Please edit the article to put relevant quotes (preferably in a new section), or post a link to the review here. And if it is a magazine publication, please give a link to an online transcript of the same. Please translate French quotes before putting them in. --Soumyasch 04:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have added a Critique section. Please modify it if it is not good enough. --Soumyasch 14:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not NPOV

"Also known by her nickname Lili, this brown-haired, brown-eyed beauty was born in the Corsican capital Ajaccio on 21 August 1984."
"And she went on to win not only the hearts of millions of viewers, but the "Meilleure Graine" award for most promising young singing star of tomorrow, as well."
"And the trio joined hands to launch her career in style, which shot her to overnight fame."
"In 2001, with huge international interest, the album got launched internationally and its success was phenomenal."
"Alizée can now pride herself on having sold more than four million records, of all her albums combined, althroughout Europe. She has even starred in a commercial in Japan... As she has herself said, she loves to be infront of the crowds."
"However, in what was claimed to be an unpublished interview with Alizée herself, in November, 2004, Alizée supposedly had said that she was working on a new album, which would then be in a style of rock music. It should be noted that the validity of this interview has never been verified, and it is not very plausible that someone would do an interview with such information if it is not to be published." - it should be noted?!
"Alizée is a very private person. As such, she wants very little of her personal life to be in the public's eyes. She believes that staying in the public limelight for too long will tire the public." - source? Or is this just (hopeful) speculation?

I'm going to tag this with {{NPOV}} until it gets fixed. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

~~"Also known by her nickname Lili, this brown-haired, brown-eyed beauty was born in the Corsican capital Ajaccio on 21 August 1984."~~

~~What's wrong with this line?~~ Got your point. Fixing it to state the same facts in a more neutral way. --Soumyasch 13:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"However, in what was claimed to be an unpublished interview with Alizée herself, in November, 2004, Alizée supposedly had said that she was working on a new album, which would then be in a style of rock music. It should be noted that the validity of this interview has never been verified, and it is not very plausible that someone would do an interview with such information if it is not to be published." - it should be noted?!

Changed the it should be noted... line to just keep the validity of this interview has never been verified. The rest was not objective. --Soumyasch 14:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Good work! I have done some further copyediting and have added some {{fact}} tags and included inline comments to the text near the tags. I am removing the NPOV tag now as this article has considerably improved! - Ta bu shi da yu 02:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Early Years

The early years section quite resembled Alizée's biography at rfimusic.com, I have edited it. --Soumyasch 14:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Citations in Future section

There has been no confirmed official word regarding Alizée's comeback into the music buisness for almost two years. Her official site has been down since the summer of 2005 but there is speculation by fans and gossip magazines that she is set to make a comeback in the near future. ^{[citation needed]}

I am providing a link to the discussions regarding the rumors in the fan forums, from there links to both fan rumors as well as mag rumors can be worked out. But am not sure whether this citation is really needed. I am not providing links to scans/texts of individual mag rumors, as there are many. Still, if the gossip magazines word is controversial, it can be taken down.

However, another gossip magazine recently published an article claiming her to have supposedly cancelled all her contracts to spend all of her time on raising her daughter. ^{[citation needed]}

Citation pending

In an interview that was taken just before her concert tour in 2003, Alizée said that if her second album doesn't achieve sales comparable to that of the first, she won't do a third album, ^{[citation needed]} however there has been no further official follow-up information regarding what is happening.

Citation pending. See discussion above.

In what was claimed to be an unpublished interview with Alizée herself, in November, 2004, Alizée supposedly had said that she was working on a new album, which would then be in a style of rock music^{[citation needed]}.

Done

However, the validity of this interview has never been verified. Numerous other rumours regarding her possible third album have surfaced in the last one year, only to turn out to be false^{[citation needed]}.

The interview, I think, needs a mention because it is regarded by many to be authentic, and because, if it indeed is authentic, it does give important info. So I kept the mention of the interview, highlighting associated issues. No other rumors have been explicitly mentioned. And I am not providing one more citation here since that would also lead to forums discusions.

--Soumyasch 04:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Please help put the two citations that are still pending. --Soumyasch 05:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

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