Talk:Alice Liddell

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Contents

[edit] Restructure

While obviously Alice's fame comes from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, is it really appropriate that a whole paragraph about this comes before any significant info about her, herself? There's a whole separate article on the book, it does not need to be repeated here.

The rest of the article would benefit from being better written too. It is, for the most part, about the book, the character and Lewis Carroll, rather than the real Alice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.168.237 (talk) 17:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lorina Reeve's birthday?

No data available? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.43.98.126 (talk) 23:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

She was born in 1826 according to The Real Alice by Anne Clark. I couldn't find the exact date, but I can check more thoroughly later. --Fritz S. (Talk) 07:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] info on Lewis Carroll v. that on Alice Liddell

When reading both pages, the information found on one page is different enough to lead to much more confusion than is necessary. I've encountered this problem at many other page groups on Wikipedia, but this is the worst I've seen by far. An editor should really take the time to clean up the differing/contradicting/confusing info on the Lewis Carroll, Alice Liddell and related pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.84.191 (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wonderland Entrance in South Cerney, Gloucestershire?

The page http://www.waterpark.org/placesofinterest.html states: 'Lewis Carroll was a friend of the Vicar of South Cerney, the Rev WW Liddell. The Alice¹ stories were written for and about his niece Alice Liddell. He used local features in the stories, such as a very small door at the vicarage as the door to Wonderland.'

The above is often repeated as fact, but is there any evidence to support the statement? User:80.229.10.30 17:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't know about the part about the sites, but there is absolutely no doubt that the "Alice" character takes her name from Alice Pleasance Liddell. Aside from a great deal of secondary evidence supporting this fact, there is the primary evidence in the poem at the conclusion of Through the Looking Glass, in which Alice's full name is spelled out, reading the first letter of each line downward. Wahkeenah 04:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dodgson's Heirs/Cut Pages

While Dodgson's heirs did indeed destroy most of his papers at his request and probably are responsible for some of the cut pages, many tend to agree that Dodgson cut some of the pages himself. An examination of the diaries shows two different kinds of cut - one jagged and one straight - that strongly suggest that the cutting was performed at two different times, perhaps by two different parties. --[[User:Zanthalon|Zanthalon , ]] 16:25, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Two of these pages, including the one from 1863, have been cut by Lewis Carroll's nieces, Violet Dodgson and Menella Dodgson, as a document discovered by Karoline Leach reveals. We don't know, indeed, who cut the remaining five (although Stuart Collingwood seems to be the main suspect), but all of them were from earlier period. -- Naive cynic 17:29, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
"We don't know, indeed..." Precisely. That is why I worded it the way that I did, to indicate that there is uncertainty about who removed the pages. Another page on the same site you are citing suggests that Dodgson may have done the earlier cutting. I think my wording is more accurate than yours, which says his heirs did the cutting without indicating that who cut some of the pages is in dispute. I think that for the sake of accuracy, my version should be reinstated. This is not worth getting into a revert war over, but I think that we should point out the uncertainty of the situation rather than making a definitive statement one way or the other. --[[User:Zanthalon|Zanthalon , ]] 20:58, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Missing page "from that time period" (i.e. from 27-29 June 1863) was cut by LC's heirs. Who cut the ones from 1855-1857 is clearly under dispute, but these pages are presumably not directly related to the rift between LC and the Liddells, so I haven't considered mentioning them here useful enough. If you think otherwise, you are, of course, welcome to reintroduce these details. -- Naive cynic 00:33, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Cut the phrase 'The fact that we now know what caused the famous break...and that it had nothing to do with Alice Liddell.' Article acknowledges that provenance of the note is much disputed; how can we accept its conclusion as fact? --128.36.43.176 07:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreadable?

I believe the text marked [unreadable] in the cut page is "soon". The page in the cut page link http://www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/cutpages.html is titled "pashes" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Netdragon (talk • contribs) .

That word actually looks like it begins with a "g", not an "s". Compare the handwriting with that of the lines immediately below, which (in content) are actually far more interesting. You see, the article states that

Precisely what this note means has yet to be determined, but it seems to imply that the 'break' between Dodgson and the Liddell family was caused by concern over the alleged 'gossip', linking Dodgson to the governess and to 'Ina' (presumably Alice's older sister). Whether there was any foundation in any of this gossip has not been determined.

but the note asks

Does anyone know what the "business with Lord [Newing]" was which put L.C. out of "Mrs Liddell's good graces"

which suggests that there was some sort of to-do with some peer, whose name (if I've deciphered the scrawl correctly) was Lord Newing. Now, if you're looking for a reason why Carroll fell out of favour with the Liddells, wouldn't showing up a member of the aristocracy have kind of done it? It's almost enough to make one want to research the Newing family history. Can't see where you've got that "pashes" idea from, though. Wooster 21:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

  • I think it reads "so one", not "soon". I think they were more literate than to misspell it, and it seems to be separate words. However, the phrase "he is also supposed so one to be courting Ina" doesn't make much sense, unless it was a colloquial way of saying "so one hears" or some such. Wahkeenah 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, my apologies; the first sentence is not my comment, but an unsigned one. I have inserted the usual "unsigned comment" tag. Wooster (talk)

[edit] Date of death

Sometimes November 15 is given as her date of death (for example in Anne Clark's The Real Alice), other sources (including Colin Gordon's Beyond The Looking Glass) give November 16... I was wondering if anybody could clear this up with a dependable source for either date? -- Fritz S. 20:27, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The lead not telling the truth

It should explicity state that many people believed that Lewis Carroll was sexually attracted to her. Skinnyweed 22:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"many people believed" sounds very weasel-wordy to me, but if you find a reliable source for that... --Fritz S. (Talk) 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
A bit late to the party, here, but I also am a bit concerned about the rather-POV seeming current second paragraph: "As with Carroll himself, there are many false stories and misconceptions about her life, most of them based on mere rumours without any evidence to support them. However, because they were presented by many biographers as facts, they are often falsely believed to be indisputable by the public." This is not written in the preferred Wikipedian fashion. No doubt the editor who wrote this has good sources to back up this claim, but each claim made about Liddell or Carroll should be treated individually; the article sets up a negative tone when it explicitly claims a whole category of commentary are untruths to be debunked (no matter if it is true). I am deleting it for now; if somebody protests I will be happy to discuss it further. --Edwin Herdman 07:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the whole article seems weird. It keeps mentioning the controversy of their relationship, and I think it should be limited to just one section of the article. The poem as evidence is impressive, I had never come across that before (it actually spells out her name with the word 'pleasance' in the middle (which can mean, 'a source of pleasure.') I just think that the issue should be handled in one confined topic, rather than referring to it here and there. (Neurolanis (talk) 20:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC))

Pleasance is her second name... --Fritz S. (Talk) 09:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. Neurolanis —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurolanis (talk • contribs) 02:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph Date Problem

I notice that in the second picture of real life Alice that she is clearly older than in the first, even though it is dated two years earlier when she was -- according to the first -- 7 years old. This would make her 5 years old in the second photograph, which she clearly is not. In fact she looks 10 years old in it, which would mean that it was taken during the time which I had believed Caroll had spent with her. I'd say that the date is roughly five years off. (Neurolanis (talk) 19:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Dodgson/Carroll

It seems a bit confusing to keep alternating between the two names. Perhaps we should indicate that he is know by both names and then proceed to just use one or the other for the rest of the article. Amillion (talk) 19:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)