Talk:Alia Sabur

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[edit] What is the truth?

It amazes me that anyone really thinks Colin Maclaurin must have been 18 years and 363 or 364 days old when he became a professor. Please, she is a remarkable person, but she was 3 days from her 19th birthday. Are you really saying that you think Colin Maclaurin was older by 1 or 2 days?

Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability, not truth. Any change you want to make to the article must use a reliable source. What you or I think is irrelevant - what matters is what the sources say. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


How about when the source is the individual in question? The article I posted was from an interview with her, that she links on her own personal web page. Which part of the RS are you debating? I find it impossible to believe she would link an article that was untrue.

And I would think that truth is a higher standard of it's own merit, which in this case is easily verifiable. I'll have to remember that quote though next time. Verifiability greater than truth. Wow. That's the kind of rhetoric the eugenicists used to justify the Tuskegee experiments. The truth is not by committee, it's a natural attribute. But that's a philosophical comment and I don't want you thinking I am slandering you as an individual. I would just hope that there would be a higher standard. I am sadly disappointed.:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.119.168 (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not rhetoric—it is Wikipedia's policy on Verifiability. We report what reliable sources have to say on the subject, not what we believe to be true. Now, if you want to include material that's taken from a published interview, why not discuss it here? Tell us what you want to say, and provide a link to the interview. Or you can be bold and add it to the article yourself - but if you do this, please add a citation so that everyone can verify the information for themselves. That's all verifiability requires of us. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 21:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PhD vs. PhD Candidate

Neither the news reports nor her website is sufficiently clear as to her academic status. It states that she is PhD (ABD). ABD means All But Dissertation which is the same as Ph.D. candidate, that is, a graduate student who has completed the course work for PhD, and is ready to start working on the dissertation (another 2-5 years, depending on the discipline). What would be appropriate is to state in her CV the expected completion date of her PhD.


[edit] Assistant Professor without a completed PhD?

There are certain doubts as to the claims concerning her being appointed an Assistant Professor. Such titles are conferred at universities normally only on staff who hold a completed PhD. (In fact, a number of universities have special clauses in their collective agreements stating this specifically.) A second question that should be asked is what her duties are, and whether her appointment is tenure-track (which is the "real thing" in academia).

According to news reports (and the Guinness book) she has been pointed full professor, some of which are cited on the page. The information that you keep adding is speculation and original research and does not belong on the main page unless you have reliable sources to back up the claims. (eg. Other reliable sources state doubt about the validity of her appointment because of such and such) Please stop re-adding the information to the main page without references. Thanks and hope this helps. --ImmortalGoddezz (t/c) 17:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Guinness World Records

Thank you for the correct link! 205.200.220.91 (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Youngest Candidate

Can it be confirmed that Alia is indeed the youngest Phd Student ever? I believe that is at least spurious.

Doing Google for "Youngest doctorate candidate" and "youngest phD candidate" only one competitor showed up. A girl named Wanda Haffit who is also fifteen. However a Bernd R. Noack received his doctorate in physics at sixteen and I know of a Carl Witte who had a philosophy doctorate at 11.--T. Anthony 14:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
That said the answer seems to a tentative yes. Tathagat Avatar Tulsi was likely the same age as a doctoral candidate, but she seems to in least be the youngest doctoral student at present. Unless this Wanda woman is younger.(Bernd Noack is a grown man whose prodigy days are in the past)--T. Anthony 15:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Guinness World Records recently confirmed her status as the Youngest Professor. Having a PhD and being a research professor are different things.(Drumz0rz (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC))
I'm not sure that the comparison with Colin Maclaurin is entirely accurate, regardless of what the Guinness Book of Records says. Alia Sabur is, according to her website, an assistant professor (equivalent to a lecturer in UK terminology), whereas Maclaurin was a (full) professor. It's still an extremely impressive achievement, though - at that age I'd only just started my BA. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This guy started his PhD at 16: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.171.150 (talk) 00:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
That's also pretty impressive. I believe Ruth Lawrence started her DPhil at the age of 15. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 21:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The comment ending this stub: "Due to her young age and unnatural progression, she lacks many of the social graces that are developed through peer interaction." is both untrue and unnecessary. The revision that added this comment shows no username. I have met Alia Sabur and found her to have no gaping lack of "social graces," at least no greater lack than any bright young person. I have removed the comment. AnalogTimepiece 02:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)AnalogTimepiece 22:42 14 March 2007

Seniore12302:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

As of 4/23/08, Ms. Sabur has not yet received her Ph.D. from Drexel University. She has indeed receive an M.S. degree in 2006. In her resume next to Ph.D. she is using the abbreviation ABD which stands for All But Dissertation. I therefore removed the statement that she received her doctorate from Drexel University.

—Preceding Seniore123 comment added by Seniore123 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Zanimum indicated in a deleted edit that he's soliciting a photo of Ms. Sabur. Ral315 (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Circlechess deleted the photo of a green monster that was holding the place where http://www.aliasabur.com/teaching.jpg should be. Since the user account for Circlechess is less than 4 days old, this user cannot put it there themselves... yet.


[edit] Understanding academic appointments

There is some unclarity in the news reports about Ms. Sabur's appointment. The various academic appointments that one may hold can be described at large on the following three dimensional scale.


[edit] Part-time vs. full-time

People who are sessional instructions are often designated as "part-time professors" and may hold professorial titles if they have completed their PhD.


[edit] Rank

There are three ranks of professorship, Assistant Professor being the most junior, Associate Professor being the intermediate and Full Professor being the top level.


[edit] Tenure-track vs. limited term

In order to conduct serious research, one needs to be sure that one's position is secure. Thus, most universities offer tenure-track professorships, which lead to tenure after a number of years of satisfactory service. In reality, depending on the discipline, most young academics start their career at limited term positions, such as postdoctoral fellowships, or limited term assistant professorships.


Overall, what can be quite credible is that she is currently a graduate student (which is great at such a young age), and became an Instructor (the proper title for "professors without a PhD"). This is not uncommon for PhD candidates, especially in humanities, where after completing the coursework, one has to work on the dissertation for another 5-7 years.205.200.196.135 (talk) 01:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage/Religion

Note:Professor Alia Sabur is of Iranian origin. She was born from Iranian parents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.246.253.155 (talk) 14:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


Please do not modify other editors' Talk page comments. If you wish to add a new comment, please either start a new section, or write below the comment you wish to reply to. For more Talk page guidelines, please see Wikipedia:Talk pages. Thanks. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 13:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


So any official/reliable word from her ethnicity? Iranian? Pakistani? Palestinian? The name can be from anywhere in the ME.--Zereshk (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of sites saying she's Iranaian (or Iranian-American) but her own site does not say this, and unfortunately all the sources I've found do not meet our standards for reliable sources. I would be delighted to include this material in the article if we could just find a source for it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
She was born in NY but her heritage is unknown. If you are really interested in getting this in the article, I guess you could try e-mailing her directly. I'm not sure how Wiki regards an original source like that(Drumz0rz (talk) 04:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC))
We do accept information directly from the subjects of biographical articles, but generally this is done only to remove or correct existing material, and the person generally has to contact WP:OFFICE or WP:OTRS directly, to verify their identity and so on. In this case, the best solution I can see would be to find a published document in a reliable source (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources) answering this question once and for all. In the absence of such a source, we could always cite her own website, if she were to update it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I have an idea, because she didn’t say anything about her background (maybe she afraid some people stop her ;) ) then the best way is we choose something for her like (Arab , Iranian, Turk,…)(it's better to go with majority of links) and because Wikipedia is important these days then she will contact wiki to correct the wrong information ;) if she didn’t contact then that means we did select the right one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asheemak (talkcontribs)

Please read our policy on Biographies of living people. Suggesting that we deliberately include errors, or make guesses when we don't know what the truth is, is directly against policy. You may have meant the above suggestion as a joke—but an admin is unlikely to "see the funny side", and if you do try it, you may find yourself receiving a WP:BLOCK. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This keeps being added back into the article at an alarming pace. If it continues to be added like it has been I think a request for semi-protection needs to be requested. Anyway I've removed the Iranian/American statement again. This time however, this pops up in google news, Sabur denying Iranian roots. This should definitely not be added back in until something more definitive is found confirming her ethnicity. --ImmortalGoddezz (t/c) 03:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Good find, ImmortalGoddezz. I was beginning to doubt my own actions, given all the unreliable sources saying "Iranian" that are out there. We must continue to enforce Wikiedpia's BLP policy strictly in this regard. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 04:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim

She's a Muslim. Why was it removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.221.169 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


Her ethnicity needs to be cited before being readded. As of right now, your word is as good as mine. (Drumz0rz (talk) 07:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Moved from article

Sabur's "Youngest Professor" status is contested based upon the fact that she had not, at the time of her hire, received her PhD. A PhD is required by most Universities before any kind of professorship (assistant, associate, or full) is granted. The source of the problem is around the meaning of the word "professor" since anyone teaching at a university or college is often referred to as "professor." It would be important to clear up the meaning of the word professor.

Why is nothing being made of the fact that it's a Korean university? I went to school in Japan, and the terms we used could be translated willy-nilly to western equivalents. That is "lecturer", "professor", "teacher" etc did not necessarily apply to the same things as you might expect in a US or UK university. I was dubbed a "Visiting Scholar" even as I had barely started grad school!!

I do not doubt that she's brilliant, but half of the reason Asian colleges invite foreigners is for status and bragging rights. I would not take a label of "Professor", "Full Professor" or even "Asst Professor" at face value. It's just a matter of what they decide to use in any given translation. On any given day.

Guiness should base their claim on Sabur's position in New Orleans. The Korean position is not reliable. 216.99.241.6 (talk) 07:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


I removed this text because it is unsourced. The sources that are in the article use the word professor. If a reliable source is found contesting her status, it can be included, otherwise, it cannot. As a biography of a living person, Wikipedia's policy is quite clear that this article must provide reliable sources for any material, particularly anything controversial. We cannot, then, include anything about this being "contested" without a source saying who, and why, might be contesting the professorship. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please show me the official source that states he was older than her by a whopping 2 days. (If he were older than her by 3 days he'd have been 19.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SenSo (talkcontribs) 15:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We have a reliable source saying Alia Sabur is the world's youngest professor. Wikipedia defines a reliable source as one with "a reputation for fact checking and accuracy". If you have a reliable source saying she is not the world's youngest professor, or that her status is "contested" as the text above says, please provide it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 16:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)