Talk:Ali/Alis thought of Umar and Abu Bakr

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[edit] From Talk:Ali/Archive1

[edit] Zora delets iformation

Zora just deleted well sourced, NPOV and accurate information. She commented:

Striver, you're acting like a conspiracy theorist with "documents" to prove his case; a cleaner version is both more favorable to the Shi'a, and easier to read

The information is regarding Alis reaction to not receiving his inheritance. She has no right under wikipedia rules to remove that iformation, which is much relevant to Alis biography. --Striver 11:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules don't mandate that we include every "shiny thing" that magpie editors try to jam into an article. We are trying to create READABLE articles. Zora 19:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Zora, in no way is inclusion of that information render the article unredable. Further, the facts are not "shiny thing" that "magpie editors" (i take that as a personal insult) include for personal resons. That is facts that are very relant to Shias, Shia do not hesitate to mention that Ali and Umar had a became what my edits show. Books are writen about Ali and Abu Bakr and the Inheritance, articles in the net has been writen about it. You know it. You try to remove it since you know that it will make Sunni feel bad, but since they can not refute it or say they dont belive in it, you simply try to marginalize it and try to claim it is uninportant or not relevant. It is very relevant. And it will remain there. Persist in removing it by no other motivation that you think it to be irrelevant and i will be forced to seek other meand to have it included, beggining with a RFC. Here you have a example of a article DEDICATED to represent Ali, Abu Bakr and the inheritance answering-ansar.org, writen in a very prominent Shia site, and here you have a the same topic given a whole chapter in a very prominent Shia Book And then i was guided. In this part of the article they mentioning all the facts i presented answering-ansar.org. So dont claim its uninportant, you KNOW its not since you have been a editor of Islam related articles for a long time. It is Factual. It is Relevant. It is NPOV. It is Well sourced. It is NOT unreadeble. It will remain there, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO REMOVE IT! --Striver 14:37, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Zora for your steps toward compromise. What you did is to remove Alis actions and replased them with how Shia picture them. That is not acceptable. You can not remove any reference to Garbiel in the cave where Muhammad received his revelation and simply state that Muslims belive he became a prophet there. The acctual event must be reported, specialy since it is a relevant event to manny people!
You can not simply replace this parts from the Muhammad article:
Muhammad had a reflective turn of mind and routinely spent nights in a cave (Hira) near Mecca in meditation and thought. Around the year 610, while meditating, Muhammad had a vision of the Angel Gabriel and heard a voice saying to him in rough translation "Read in the name of your Lord the Creator. He created man from something which clings. Read and your Lord is the Most Honored. He taught man with the pen; taught him all that he knew not." (See surat Al-Alaq for a fuller account.)
The first vision of Gabriel disturbed Muhammad, but his wife Khadijah reassured him that it was a true vision and became his first follower. She was soon followed by his ten-year-old cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib and Abu Bakr, whom Sunnis assert to have been Muhammad's closest friend.

With:

Muhammad was often in a cave. Muslims belive he became a prophet there and followed him.
In the same manner, you can not remove the parts you removed from the inheritance article and just briefly state that Shias dont like Abu Bakr! THAT was the event that cippled Alis economical resources and any hope of having any authority or power at all! Otherwise, he would have inherited a vast amount of resources though Muhammds daughter!
The facts of the matter must be reported, you can not simply present the Abu Bakr argument that he heard prophets (plural) did not inherit, but not present that Ali countered that the Quran refutes that! That is not a neutral point of view, both arguments must be presented. Further, it is inacurate to claim that Shia POINT to that event as A example of persecution, even if you said that shia CLAIM that Ali BELIVED that Umar and Abu Bakr was a lier, treacherous, sinner and so on, it would STILL be inacurate, since it is regarded as AUTHENTIC by SAHIH MUSLIM! NO ONE disputes the authenticity of that part of the hadith, Umar himself said that those two belive them to be low-lifes, Shia belive it and the second most authentic Sunni source around reports it as AUTHENTIC! I will not settle with NOT presenting Alis view, not even presenting that Shia belived that Ali belived that, no, you just want to replace that with some general line about Shia not liking it!
Also, I dont even want to hear anything about Alis reaction to Abu Bakr and Umar actions not being important or relevant to his biography!
  • Since Abu Bakr argument for not letting Ali inherit was presented, Alis counteragument MUST be presented
  • Alis view on Abu Bakr and Umar must be presented, specialy since it is deemed authentic by BOTH Shia and Sunnis!


Further, Wikipedia demands that the sources for the inforamtion to be given, which i did. --Striver 14:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Zora does not motivate

Zora delets iformation regarding what Alis thought of Umar and Abu Bakr, as reported in Sunni sources that classified the narration as authentic, and also in prominent Shia collections. Alis oppinion are regarding the subject that the section is about, and his oppinion are further also highly relevant to the biography of Ali. Zora gives the following motivations for doing so:

  • "you're acting like a conspiracy theorist"
  • "we (dont) include every "shiny thing" that magpie editors try to jam into an article"
  • "We are trying to create READABLE articles"

As can easly been seen, the first point ignores that i am citing the most prominent mainstream sources of both Shia and Sunni. That does not make a conspiracy, that makes reporting acknowledged and authenticated facts.

The second point is a pure personal assualt on me, calling me a magpie editors trying to insert non-sense in the article. As is evident, Alis oppinion regarding a pivital event in his life according to the most prominent sources around does not qualifie as legitimate information in Zoras eyes.

The third point... i dont event get what it supposed to mean. Maybe that she does not like me sourcing the informatino in this format?


And here is her forth argument:

  • "Striver, please stop mangling the article"


Dont you love how well she articulates her arguments?


What she DOES NOT manage to do, is to either disprove one of my arguments for insertnig it:

  • It is a fact that is not disputed
  • Is is reported in the most prominent books around
  • Its is NPOV
  • It is relevant
  • It needs to be sourced


Zora, if you delet my editions one more time, without properly addresing my arguments and insiting on giving oppions regarding my person as the only motivatin for deleting Alis oppinions and the sources given, i will take it to the next step, making a RFC.

You started by deleting the whole section. When i asked why, you claimed that my editinos did not have the right prose, they where "hadith dumps". I said ok and let you correct my prose. But you did not only correct my prose, you also deleted, and keep insinting on deleting the relevant and factual informatin that i demand to have represented. That is in violation of WP rules. Stop it.

--Striver 22:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, striver I can only hope that both Sunni and Shi'a point of view will be be reflected in the article. I would just like to point out though that the link ("answering-islam.org/Silas/rf1_mhd_wealth.htm") is from an anti-Islamic site that wants to create conflict between Muslims. The site is also plagued with lies and distortion of the Qur'an so it can make christianity look good. Yes, it is very pathetic and so, I would recommend that the link be deleted and a better one found from a Shi'a site. But remember the article can't simply be the Shi'a perspective - you have to reach middle ground with the Sunni POV. Thanks and Salaam, a-n-o-n-y-m 01:16, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Wa aleikom salam Anonymous editor! I dont know exactly who Sunni relate to this topic, they seem to admit the facts, but i dont know how they interpret it. So i just laid out the facts from Shia and Sunnis most prominent sources without commenting on them. However, Zora added a line regarding Shia pov and i did not delet it. I welcome a sunni to also add the sunni pov to that event, since it is lacking as it is. I recall reading a Sunni article basicly saying that "sure, they said harsh stuff, but it dosnt matter, friends say harsh stuff". In any case, my concern in this matter is not so much to have the Shia or Sunni pov included, rather the factual event it self, and having it well sourced.
Regarding the answering Islam link, i know its a bad link, but i could not find tabari in any other place online... ill try to search for a alternative tabari quote...--Striver 12:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not censoring a Shi'a view -- I think any reasonable Shi'a would conclude that I'm keeping Striver from depicting Ali as a mean-spirited, grasping monomaniac. Striver's quote re "Ali didn't give bay'ah" didn't prove what he thought it did. One quote is from an anti-Islamic site. The quote from Ali seems to refer to the caliphate rather than lands or goods. The hadith that Striver cites, so that he can enter a string of epithets directed at the non-Alid caliphs, is actually a Sunni hadith that depicts Ali and Abbas as squabbling over stuff and motivated by greed, and shamed by Umar who contrasts their behavior with that of Muhammad, who kept only what he needed for the bare essentials and gave the rest of his income to the community. The version of the article that I'm championing accurately summarizes the dispute, and is missing only the complaints and the epithets. Does Shi'ism consist of hatred and complaints of persecution? I refuse to believe that it does. Zora 03:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

The Bay'ah quote is not concerned in this dispute. The quote is from Tabari, that happens to be on a anti Islamic site. If you manage to find it somewhere else, you are welcomned to quote Tabari from there.
"I'm keeping Striver from depicting Ali as a mean-spirited, grasping monomaniac" is your pov, not everyones. I for my self dont belive that persisting to receive ones inheritance makes one a "mean-spirited, grasping monomaniac". - Rather, whitholding somones inheritance might cause one to deserve those titles. However, its is totaly irrelevant, since i dont aim to represent pov of some group, rather the facts of what Ali thought.
"The quote from Ali seems to refer to the caliphate rather than lands or goods." must refer to the Nahj al-Balagha quote "I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself." since its the only Ali quote in the section. "I watched the plundering of my inheritance" not refering to inheritance is Zora pov, im sure that manny would agree that i does refer to what it says, inheritance.
"The hadith that Striver cites, so that he can enter a string of epithets directed at the non-Alid caliphs, is actually a Sunni hadith that depicts Ali and Abbas as squabbling over stuff and motivated by greed, and shamed by Umar who contrasts their behavior with that of Muhammad, who kept only what he needed for the bare essentials and gave the rest of his income to the community." - That is your interpretaition of it, you are entitled to that. But your pov is not a valid reason for deleting the information. The information is relevant, as in shown in this aricle [1] that quotes the same hadith with a totaly diffrent pov.
"The version of the article that I'm championing accurately summarizes the dispute, and is missing only the complaints and the epithets. Does Shi'ism consist of hatred and complaints of persecution?" - What you refer to as Your version is simply the deletion of Alis reaction to having his inheritance denied and nothing more. Your version does nothing more that remove all referens to Alis oppinions and also removes the reference given, and as if that was not enough, you also removed his answer/rebutal to Abu Bakrs argument. that is not acceptable --Striver 22:08, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cut

[edit] Striver

Thanks for your note on my userpage. Great to hear from you again. I can't help thinking, though, that the recent edits you've proposed here are needlessly partisan. There are neutrality issues here to consider. Let's take a break and let the page breathe for a little bit, all right? BrandonYusufToropov 17:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


Thank you. Could you elaborat a bit on how my version is pov? --Striver 03:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

--Striver 03:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

However, Abu Bakr claimed that he had heard Muhammad say that prophets do not leave an inheritance bukhari. Ali then pointed out that the Quran mentions prophets leaving inheritance, but Abu Bakr keept his stance. Tabari

Given that this is a historically contentious issue, doesn't a "group A holds that X was observed, while group B holds that Y was observed" seem more appropriate (and sensitive) than implying that Abu Bakr was simply ignoring the Qur'an? Also, is it possible that citing this reference here would sidetrack the article into a "can-you-top-this" series of comeuppance citations from people who will disagree with the implication here?

When Abu Bakr died, Ali and Ibn Abbas both whent to Umar to demand their share of inheritance. On that event, Umar stated that he knew that Ibn Abbas and Ali thought Umar and Abu Bakr where "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest" due to their actions, but would still not give Ali and Ibn Abbas their inheritance Muslim.

Similarly, are there groups today who are likely to consider Abu Bakr's actions in this (historically contentious) case justified? Have we given their viewpoint fair exposure? Do we risk "dueling citations" episodes in the article if we include a passage such as this? BrandonYusufToropov 12:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)