Talk:Ali

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Ali was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: April 3, 2008
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
To-do list for Ali: edit · history · watch · refresh

What we should do to achieve GA status criteria :
Here are some tasks you can do:
  • Verify: Some parts may need more reliable secondary sources.
  • Cleanup: Siege of Uthman section, by shortening and writing in better prose.
  • Other:
    • Use consistency in format of Qur'an references.
    • Improve tone of article;it reads too much like a history lesson .
    • Improve spelling and grammar.
Priority 1 (top) 

This is the current WikiProject:Biography collaboration!
Please help improve it to featured article standard.

Chronological Archive:

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Contents

[edit] Historigraphy Section

I cannot understand how life of Ali ibn Abi Talib has its source in the Quran? Maybe some refrences to this will be helpful. I am thus going ahead and editing this line —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chem1 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources which are used to provide an NPOV text

I tried to add reliable sources by using the Allameh Tabatabaei's books. Of course someone else who is familiar with Sunni and western viewpoints should try to make this article more NPOV.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

To make this article POV I used these sources:
  • Nahj al-Balagha(Peak of Eloquence), Ali ibn Abi Talib, compiled by ash-Sharif ar-Radi
Somebody may think this book expresses Shia viewpoint while it is neither completely Shia nor Sunni. Also some of Sunni consider it as reliable source in historic issues.(Please pay attention to the differences between Rijal criteria and historic ones.)
  • Encyclopedia of Holy Prophet and Companions, Ashraf, Shahid (2005).
This is the only detailed English biography of Ali which I could find. This book is written by a Sunni.
  • Shi'ite Islam, Tabatabae, Sayyid Mohammad Hosayn; Seyyed Hossein Nasr (translator) (1979)
Although there are several Shia source about Imam Ali but this book is the most reliable one in west.
  • The Succession to Muhammad: A Study of the Early Caliphate, Madelung, Wilferd (1997).

This is an academic and reliable book which describes Rashidun's era in detail.

  • Holt, P. M.; Bernard Lewis (1977). Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1.

An academic brief history Of Islam.

  • A History of Islamic Societies, 2nd, Lapidus, Ira (2002).

It contains a brief academic history of Ali's reign

I also use the other sources like Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim whenever I was relevant. I tried to use more than one source in each case. I hope I have written an NPOV text. Feel free to put POV tag on the article or challenge my editions. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 02:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suitable template?

Is it suitable to use monarch template in this article. I made a template for Salaf and we can use that one.[1]--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 02:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hadith Yawm Al-Dar or Yawm Al-Enzar

When the Prophet gathered Banu Hashim and invited them to Islam (Qur'an 26:214) and Ali accepted his invitation, there is a quotation which is narrated by the prophet "إن هذا أخی و وصیی و خلیفتی فیکم فاسمعوا له و أطیعوه" means "Indeed this[Ali] is my brother and inheritor and successor among you Thus hear(listen to) him and obey him."

I want to if this Hadith is available in Sunni sources or not?--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 04:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I can check tomorrow night at the masjid if you would like, aside from actual books I can try to run a web search for the Arabic text. (Assuming I remember and/or am not being lazy ;) ...) MezzoMezzo 04:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
i don't know about this particular text. ITAQALLAH 13:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Authenticity of Nahj al-Balagha

Ittaqillah asked about authenticity of this work and mentioned that some scholars haven't considered it as an authentic source. Please pay attention that compilation of this work is not similar to the Hadith books. The method of collecting the Nahj al-Balagha differs from that of the hadith collections, especially those of Sunni Islam. Sharif ar-Radi edited the available material, omitting portions with lesser literary value. He has not included isnads for the different text pieces.[2] However An Indian Sunni scholar Imtiyaz ‘Ali’ Arshi, who died a little while ago, did the most painstaking research in this context. He succeeded in tracing back the early sources of 106 sermons, 37 letters and 79 stray sayings of Amir-al-Momeneen (as) in his book Istinad-e Nahj al-balaghah, originally written in Urdu, subsequently translated into Arabic in 1957, then into English and Persian. However, this work still stands as the most valuable research in this field.[3]

On the other hand It is important to note that even Ibn Khallikan, al-Dhahabi and Ibn Hajar did not question the authenticity of the attribution of Nahj-ul-Balagha in its entirety to Amir-al-Momeneen. They were mainly skeptical of those parts which were critical of the Caliphs Abu Bakr and 'Umar. But if we find such utterances and writings of Amir-al-Momeneen (as) in both Shia and non-Shia sources earlier than Nahj-ul-Balagha, baseless-ness of al-Dhahabi's and Ibn Hajar's objections can be conclusively proved.[4]--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 18:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In brief this issue is extremely crusial and there are different viewpoints. Even Shi'a scholars rarely use it as the resource of Fiqh but on the other hand use it in theological and historical fields. I believe its Eloquency distinct it from other hadiths and make it uniqe.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 15:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Enzuru's Review

This article is quite excellent, and displays both Sunni and Shi'ah views and properly notes each. Some sections were however poorly written, and I would suggest a rewrite of them:

  • Family life - Doesn't follow normal encyclopedic style
  • Ghadir Khumm - Written sloppily, and needs expansion
  • Reign as Caliph - Check POV

Other issues include the following:

  • Several romanisation styles of the word Shi'ah
  • Ali and 'Ali are used interchangeably (I went ahead and fixed this myself using Ali)
  • Spelling and grammar errors, I fixed the ones I saw as I went through, but there were probably several I missed.


Great job on this article. I am truly impressed with how far it has come. --Enzuru 03:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Khawar Nama - kamal khan rostami

I think this is one of the earlier works in Urdu language and it is related somewhere to Ali. If someone can find more information on the same can be great. Google did find me much. Wikion 09:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jafr - occult sciences

Ali is also said to be inventor of Jafr. Can anybody find more information on the same Wikion 10:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I added it.--Seyyed(t-c) 16:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Imam Ali

There is another article, Imam Ali, which is similar to this one and should be merged to it. What's your idea.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 16:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


Didn't you read at the start of the article:

(This article is an encyclopedia entry on Ali ibn Abi Talib that is to be compiled with the objective of providing an alternate, but equally qualified, historical biography from the overlooked historical records and personal accounts of Orthodox Shi'a sources.) Sikandros 03:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Then it should be merged to Shi'a view of Ali.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 09:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Then we should move/rename the article Ali to Sunni view of Ali since the sources there are mostly sunni (the Shi'a sources like Nahj al-Balagha are excepted to a degree by a portion of sunni scholars; there are no truely Shi'a sources.) Sikandros 05:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm Shia and I really tried to write both POVs in this article.Another Shia user, Enzuru, confirmed that this article represents both Shia and Sunni POV properly. Please tell us which part of this article is biased. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 18:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that you are trying to display two sides of a coin when you can either look at the front or the back. When you take a certain historical viewpoint and layer it with another viewpoint, it distorts both views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikandros (talk • contribs) 19:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I tried to write whatever Shia, Sunni and western sources agree with and in some cases I showed different ideas and viewpoints. But I usually leaved their differences. There are especial articles for Shia, Sunni and western reports. You see, I can't write Sulaym's narrations in this article without a harsh editorial war which lead to failure in the article. I think whoever want to know specific view of each sect can refer to the especial article which has made for this reason. By the way, your article is good but it's not appropriate to have two articles with similar name. The readers will be confused. We can merge it with this article and write the especial Shia viewpoint in each case or merge it with Shi'a view of Ali.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Imam Ali (whatever it includes) should be merged into Ali or Shi'a view of Ali. Please see what can be merged before we redirect. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I will move the former information[5] of "Imam Ali" to Shi'a view of Ali In Sha Allah. But now the question is to which article should it be redirected, Ali or Shi'a view of Ali. --Seyyed(t-c) 03:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Imam Ali should redirect to Ali, however there should be a link on giving the Shi'a view of him. Or actually, I am going to make a template for the Fourteen Infallibles. Check back with me. --Enzuru 19:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a link in template:Ali. But it's good idea to make another template for the fourteen Infallibles.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The city of knowledge

There is some reliable sources about Hadith "I'm the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate..." in Shia and Sunni books.

«قال رسول الله: انا مدینة العلم و علی بابها فمن اراد المدینة فلیأت الباب» See:

  • «حدیث متواتر عن النبی نقله العامة و الخاصة»

شیخ آغابزرگ تهرانی، تاریخ حصر الاجتهاد، تحقیق محمد علی انصاری، قم، موسسة الامام المهدی، 1401 ه‍ ، ص 53.* 10. حاكم نیشابوری، المستدرك علی الصحیحین، تحقیق دكتر یوسف مرعشلی، بیروت، دار المعرفه، 1406ه‍ ، ج 3، ص 126.

  • «رواه احمد‌‌ من ثمانیة طرق و ابراهیم الثقفی من سبعة الطرق و ابن‌بطه من ستة طرق و القاضی الجعانی من خمسة طرق و ابن‌شاهین من اربعة طرق و الخطیب التاریخی من ثلاثة طرق و یحیی بن معین من طریقین و قد رواه السمعانی و القاضی الماوردی و ابو‌منصور السکری و ابو‌الصلت الهروی و عبدالرزاق و شریک عن ابن‌عباس و مجاهد و جابر»

ابن‌ شهر‌ آشوب، مناقب آل ابی‌ طالب، تحقیق گروهی از اساتید نجف، مطبعه الحیدریه، 1376 ه‍ ، ج 11، ص 314 --Seyyed(t-c) 14:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

These are some other websites which discuss about the authenticity of this Hadith:

I think all of these show some Sunnis especially who have Sufi attitude consider it as a authentic hadith.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

with regards to the Sunni perspective, there were some Sunnis who considered it hasan i think but the majority position on this seems to have been that it is inauthentic (refer to the works of al-Mizzi, adh-Dhahabi, an-Nawawi etc.) ITAQALLAH 17:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
But almost all of the Sunni Sufis believe in it.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

What's your idea about nominating this article after adding some more references.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a good idea at all, as it contains countless errors in language (therefore "cleanup"). Also the references in the footnotes are not good either. Str1977 (talk) 09:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Also, several things are covered twice. Str1977 (talk) 10:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Footnotes: things like "see" and "see also", missing page numbers. Formatting is not uniform and sometimes in itself wrong (comma followed by brackets, eg. "Ashraf, (2005) pp. 119-120". Large quotes in Arabic that the average reader will not be able to read.
  • covered twice: the overview (above the ToC) is much too detailed creating repetition with the information below.
  • language: false tense, false numerus, often a very casual style, sometimes bordering on a violation of NPOV (probably unintentional).
Str1977 (talk) 17:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • See is common in the featured articles like Islam.
  • Most of the references have page numbers. In some cases it is not clear because we use online versions which don't have page number. In this cases we put the link of that web pages. In some other cases the wikipedians who added the references didn't write the page number and the sources are not available.
  • Arabic texts:I believe there should be Arabic text of the Hadith due to some possible problems in translations. Of course average reader can read the text as a story without refer to the footnote. The footnote is for whoever want to learn more.
  • covered twice:If you mean the lead, I disagree with you. I think it's appropriate and in proportion with the length of the article.

--Seyyed(t-c) 18:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Answers for Sa.Vakillian:Succession to Muhammad and Inheritance

Recently I was asked by Sa.Vakillian about some edits of mine which seemed odd. I'll bring the issues here regarding what he took issue with:

  • In this edit, I wasn't referring to Madelung as Shia; rather, what she reported was a belief predominantly held by the Shia and not universally accepted by Sunnis. I was trying to make note of that for the readers.
  • In regard to these edits, where I made more changes, the explanation is a bit longer.
  1. The first paragraph N deleted as it is from the Nahj al Balagha, which is not a neutral source as it is accepted by most Shia historians, but not most Sunni historians. If you want to keep it then I think it should be noted that "the Shia hold ali believed the caliphate was his right" with the reference. I'd drop the quote too as an entire paragraph of direct quoting doesn't add anything but dead weight to the article.
    You're correct. Madelung's ideas are similar to Shia beliefs in some cases, but Madelung has written it as the result of his own research. Therefor we should mention the research of some academicians (western or Muslim) support A the other ones support B, etc. Then we should mention the beliefs of Shia and Sunni separately. This is my idea but you can ask the other wikipedians like Aminz and Ittaqallah too. --Seyyed(t-c) 07:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  2. As for the second paragraph I removed, that was my mistake. In retrospect I don't know why I would have removed it. I believe your merging of them into one paragraph is appropriate and a much better version as well.
  3. As for the last paragraph, it is overly long and states nothing not already stated in multiple places in the rest of the article. Its only citation is a primary source as well, and as such I felt it serves little purpose.
    If you mean "The succession to Muhammad ...", I think it contains good information. However we can summarize it or even move it to Muslim view. Also we should add some secondary source like Madelung.--Seyyed(t-c) 07:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  4. For the last one, I first removed the Quranic reference as it is once again a primary source; we don't have a citation stating that Ali actually used that part of the Quran for that purpose. I'm sure it wont be hard for you to find one, but just posting the sura and ayah number really isn't much. As for the quote, I left the reference to Nahj al Balagha because the sentence marked that Shia sources state such about Ali's inheritance, but again the paragraph long quote adds little to the article as it was already summarized in the paragraph before it.
    I didn't add Quranic verse as a source, but I wanted to clarify the issue. I don't insist on that quotation and as you said the paragraph long quote adds little to the article. Thus I removed it.--Seyyed(t-c) 07:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

That, for the most part, is what I can tell you about my edits. I hope this at least made my intent behind them a little more clear. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarifications. I also looked at your recent edits, and they were a good move. I see what you're saying about keeping multiple sources. We should look into this along with other editors we know (when we get the free time), but for the most part I like your suggestions here. MezzoMezzo (talk) 19:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Nahj3.jpg

Image:Nahj3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Imam Ali coin.jpg

Image:Imam Ali coin.jpg is a fake. Not a silver derham. It is a golden dinar . It was used in Iraq, and the image is already used on the 1000 Dinar Note. The Central Bank of Iraq clearly states in the 1000 Dinar Note section that the coin is called a Dinar not a Dirham and it is made of gold not silver.

A gold dinar coin, used in this region until superseded by more modern coins and notes.

I have removed the image from the article. --Tarawneh (talk) 06:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.--Seyyed(t-c) 00:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Masterfully written article

I have observed that articles on Islam are far better written, and of superior quality, than those about Judaism. Great work.


206.63.78.78 (talk)stardingo747 —Preceding comment was added at 13:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

I've nominated Ali as a good article. Few sentences need sources but we can add them soon. Please check the article especially the last part of it.--Seyyed(t-c) 16:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the Ali article, however, is inadequate. Too many areas use primary sources (whose authenticity may be disputed) such as Nahj al-Balagha or partisan sources which are of unproven reliability, such as al-shia.com, balagh.net, eurohajjmission.org, nahjulbalagha.org, shiacode.org, shaheedfoundation.org... the list goes on and on. I am concerned that the article leans unduly towards Shi'a sources and perspectives. I'm not saying we should use Sunni works or websites (we shouldn't), but I suggest we remove all of the partisan websites and sources and restrict our coverage solely to what is related in academic scholarly sources. This will improve the quality and respectability of the article, and allay concerns that the article is pro-Sunni or pro-Shi'a or pro-anything. ITAQALLAH 22:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It should be frankly said that secular- academic or whatever one names it- studies are by no means objective.--Be happy!! (talk) 00:30, 19 March 200 (UTC)
I realize that. But the standard of reliability used across Wikipedia should be consistent. We've managed to make high quality good and featured articles without ever needing partisan material/websites/authors which themselves don't meet Wikipedia standards on reliability. ITAQALLAH 00:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't disagree with you but when I asked others to help me they refused, so I wanted to attract others attention. I should remind you that all of the primary sources comprising Quran, Nahj al-Balaqa and Sihah just for clarification and in every case I've added some reliable and secondary sources. I can remove all of those primary sources easily. I copy this discussion in Talk:Ali.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we should only refer to primary sources if they're explicitly referenced by the secondary sources themselves (c.f. cites 91 and 92, which are lengthy passages sourced only to nahjulbalagha.org). ITAQALLAH 19:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed "shaheedfoundation.org" as source.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

NotePrimary sources are just for clarification and in every case they need secondary sources and we've tried to add both of them.

Lead at five paragraphs is too long, although that's primarily a stylistic issue. Please see WP:LEAD. Some sections could be shortened without any loss of content. There are a few grammatical/stylistic issues, which can be occasionally confusing. The word "also" is used far too often. "Muhammad was the first person whom Ali saw as he took the newborn in his hands", "Even often there was no food in her house", and other sentences are far from clear. Fixing those problems, and tightening the text in general, are probably the biggest weaknesses. I should note that I am primarily an A-Class Biography reviewer rather than a GA reviewer, though, so my reservations may not necessarily be relevant to GA status. John Carter (talk) 17:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
You're right, the lead is too long. But I couldn't find less important part to omit. --Seyyed(t-c) 03:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
What's your idea about removing Nahj al-Balaghah from the lead.--Seyyed(t-c) 06:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I had removed that a while ago, but I don't understand why it had been restored. I removed it on the basis that it didn't really discuss the dispute in academia over authenticity (and instead implicitly assumed authenticity), failed to recognise it as a Shi'i compilation, is compromised by excessive peacock words/adulation, and because I think that any decent discussion about the work needs some space and cannot necessarily be tacked onto the end of the lead. ITAQALLAH 18:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

Note number 14 (more precisely, the second link in that ref.) seems to be non-existent. Can anyone help sort this? MP (talk•contribs) 13:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess you mean this:THE COMMANDER OF THE FAITHFUL: ALI IBN ABI TALIB PRESENTED BY AL-BALAGH FOUNDATION. Am I right? We can omit it due to the existence of other sources.--Seyyed(t-c) 06:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed it.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GAR: On Hold

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    A. Jargon issues.
    Additional information neededWhat's your problem with Manual of Style?--Seyyed(t-c) 18:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    A.Fact tags in "Veneration" B.See below
    Y DoneThe part which included fact tags was not important. I moved it to a sub-article.--Seyyed(t-c) 18:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Great job, quite comprehensive.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    InvalidI've written all of the viewpoints about his role in Uthman's murder. This issue is his most important accusation which his enemies use against him and even curse him. The other issues are not necessarily negative. For example he was one of the guy who kills many Arab pagans. I tried to clarify this issue. Or I've written Madelung says Ali deeply convinced of his right and his religious mission, unwilling to compromise his principles for the sake of political expediencey, ready to fight against overwhelming odds. I think this article is more neutral than what you can find in Britaica.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
    I read Ali's entry of "Islam and the Muslim world", an article which is written by a non-Muslim, and found it has glorified him too more than this one. However you can read the encyclopedic articles and compare them with this one.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    A.Image:Imam Ali Series.jpg can be used only to "to illustrate the videotape in question". B. What is the ahlulbait??, img caption in Family life. C. Image:The Message - Muslim Warriors.jpg can be used only to "for identification and critical commentary on the film and its contents"
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

I will check for "well written." after the League of copyeditors goes through it. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

07:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just added them for clarification. It's written in WP:MOSISLAM that Editors can not use primary sources to make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. But it's good idea to add Qur'an and Hadith to clarify the issue. So God willing I'll check the cases which you've mentioned on the basis of this manual of style.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • ref 43[allaahuakbar.net/] is not a reliable source.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • ref 42 doesn't seem to be reliable too.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Arabic verses are references for English quotes. The English referenced translations are needed.
  • Arabic sites are used as references, when "an English-language source of equal quality" seemed to be present. Please add English references. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources.
Note:Please pay attention to WP:REF. There is written.

Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it.

--Seyyed(t-c) 08:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

  • an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it., which are not given, e.g. ref 104.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done I just found two cases and added Persian texts in footnote and replaced the other sources with English ones.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Many primary sources used, "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." --Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Removing unacceptable sources
I remove unacceptable sources on the basis of this edition.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[8] was removed.

  • ref number 15
  • ref number 42, I added reliable source.
  • ref number 63, I added reliable source.
  • ref number 43 and 134, I replaced it with a verifiable one.
  • ref number 48 and 50 , please pay attention to the link to the google book. It doesn't have any problem.
  • ref number 68: This sermon exists in al-Tabari and Madelung refer to it in footnote of his book.
  • I removed all of the links to Nahj al-Balagha except the reliable one.

Y Done--Seyyed(t-c) 03:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures:I clarified the caption of Image:Panjetan.jpg and moved Image:Imam Ali Series.jpg to a new sub-article. But can't we keep Image:The Message - Muslim Warriors.jpg?--Seyyed(t-c) 14:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I really liked the fact the authors had written the article so non-expert or non-Muslim can understand Islamic terms like "Rashidun (Rightly Guided Caliph)", "Islamic prophet Muhammad", though there are still some Islamic terms, whose breif description can be given for jargon like Ahl al-Bayt etc.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Additional information neededCan you tell me the other unfamiliar expressions. --Seyyed(t-c) 04:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "Sunni Muslims revere him as the fourth and final Rashidun (Rightly Guided Caliph), reigning from 656 to 661. Shi'a Muslims glorify Ali as the first infallible Imam and consider him and his descendants as the rightful successors to Muhammad. This disagreement resulted in the Muslim community being split into the Sunni and Shi'a branches" which disagreement ???--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Shias belive in him as Imam while Sunnis do not. You mean we should clarify more?--Seyyed(t-c) 10:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Write "Shi'a Muslims glorify Ali as the first infallible Imam and consider him and his descendants as the rightful successors to Muhammad, while Sunnis disagree."--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
We still need to mention the Sunni position. I'd write "Shi'a Muslims glorify Ali as the first infallible Imam and consider him and his descendants as the rightful successors to Muhammad. Sunnis take a different position, revering him as the fourth and final Rashidun (Rightly Guided Caliph)."Bless sins (talk) 17:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a better suggestion.--Seyyed(t-c) 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done--Seyyed(t-c) 02:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • "For three years Muhammad invited people to Islam in secret. Then he started inviting people publicly. When, according to the Qur'an, he was commanded to invite his closer relatives to come to Islam[19] he gathered the Banu Hashim clan in a ceremony and told them clearly that whoever would be the first to accept his invitation would become his successor and inheritor. Ali, who was 13 or 14 years old at that time, stepped forth and embraced Islam. This invitation was repeated three times but only Ali answered Muhammad. Muhammad accepted Ali's submission to the faith and thus fulfilled his promise." Shouldn't this be in 'Conversion to Islam'?--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
No , he was Muslim at that time. He declared that he helped and supported the Prophet(PBUH) in his mission. I try to clarify the issue.--Seyyed(t-c) 10:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done--Seyyed(t-c) 08:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • This para "Muhammad then made a public declaration and the struggle between Muslims and pagans started. As the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to local tribes and the rulers of Mecca. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Kaaba. So they persecuted Muslims. According to the tradition, the leaders of two important Quraysh clans - Banu Makhzum and Banu Abd-Shams - declared a public boycott against their commmercial rival Banu Hashim in order to put pressure on the clan. At this time, Muhammad arranged for some of his followers to emigrate to Ethiopia. The boycott lasted for three years. Ali stood firmly in support of Muhammad during the years of persecution of Muslims and boycott of Banu Hashim in Mecca" does not say anything about Ali. A WP:UNDUE, not focussed.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done I moved some part of this paragraph to Meccan boycott of the Hashemites. God willing I'll add some information about Ali's role.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • "Another reference to their simple existence comes to us from the "Tasbih of Fatima", a divine formula that was first given to Fatima when she asked her father for a kaneez (servant girl) in order to help her with household chores. Her father (Muhammad) asked her if she would like a gift instead that was better than a servant and worth more than everything in the world. Upon her ready agreement, he told her to recite to end every prayer with the Great Exaltation "Allahu Akbar" 34 times, the Statement of Absolute Gratitude "Alhamdu-LilLah" 33 times and the Invocation of Divine Glory "Subhaan Allah" 33 times, totalling 100. This collective prayer is called the Tasbih of Fatima. " another case of not focussed.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I think we can move the issue to the sub-article.--Seyyed(t-c) 10:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done I moved it to Fatimah Zahra.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • "The incident of Mubahala" has a 1 line reference of Ali in a 7-line para, why is the background of the incident be given. Remove WP:UNDUE details, Suggestion merge with some other section.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried to improve it. Does it satisfy you. However I think the background is necessary to clarify the issue. --Seyyed(t-c) 14:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done--Seyyed(t-c) 08:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

At the rate the nominator has replied to my queries, i think i would never have to put this article on hold. Kudos.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

  • "The third caliph Uthman Ibn Affan expressed generosity toward his kin, Banu Abd-Shams, who seemed to dominate him and his supposed arrogant mistreatment toward several of the earliest Companions such as Abu Dharr al-Ghifari, Abd-Allah ibn Mas'ud and Ammar ibn Yasir provoked outraged among some group of people. Dissatisfaction and resistance had openly arisen since 650-651 CE throughout most of the empire.[62] The dissatisfaction with his regime and the governments appointed by him was not restricted to the provinces outside Arabia.[63] When Uthman's kin, especially Marwan, gained control over him, the noble companions including most of the the members of elector council, turned against him or at least withdrew their support putting pressure on the caliph to mend his ways and reduce the influence of his assertive kin.[64] Finally, dissatisfaction led to rebellion in Egypt, Kufa and Basra. At the start of the rebellion, people demanded that the exiled be returned to their homes, the deprived be provided sustenance, the men of strength and integrity be appointed as governors, and so on.[65]" This can be shortened.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
In my view this issue is too important and I've summarized about 20 pages in 12 lines. This part has connotation to Ali(the members of elector council) and relates to what has been described later.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't the infobox have the img of Ali (available in Muslim view), rather than his tomb?
You can see the former discussion about using Ali image here. I think this will lead to controversy and editorial war. --Seyyed(t-c) 14:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Also the tomb is an object of veneration of Ali (which makes him so notable), not the image.Bless sins (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you.--Seyyed(t-c) 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some dispute about the tomb, so the tomb as the infobox pic is like giving that POV a thumps-up, which would not be neutral.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Which dispute do you mean?--Seyyed(t-c) 05:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
"Most Shias" believe that infobox mosque is Ali's tomb. Not all. Candidate 2 is the Afghan mosque. Thus dispute.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
InvalidIt's there for about one year but nobody has challenged it, but whenever we put the portrait there, we had a lot of problem. I think it's not the issue which relates to GA review. Please let me not change the place of picture. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Though length is not a criterion for GAN, i suggest, assuming a near WP:FAC, PLEASE try to reduce length to something like 60-70 KB as 95KB is TOO LONG. Don't want to hurt the authors but sincerely, at times i was exhausted going through this long article and just felt like not reading ahead.
I have really neglected too many issues and move a lot of information to the sub-article to reduce the size of the article. Please pay attention to the sub-articles.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
It's difficult to reduce the size of the article and it's not too long. However Mpatel is working on it.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Continue your good work.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Leave note on my talk, when the changes are done. Ideally, the article will remain on hold not over 7 days.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

GA-FAIL: Jargon like hadith, Muhajirun et. need to be explained. al-shia.com, non-RS, still used as ref. Some parts needs to cleaned up and/or reduced significantly per MP. And considering concerns expressed about equal representation of Shia-Sunni views, thus Neutrality issues

and other issues in "An outside view", Failing the article. The nominator is welcome to get a reassessment.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An outside view

As I noted above, I have substantial concerns over the neutrality of this article which I think is too Shia-centric in its perspective and historical narrative.

Almost every passage dedicates a substantial amount of attention to the Shi'a perspective, forgetting that this viewpoint is a comparatively minor one as compared to Sunni perspective or academic perspective. While there should be a presentation of the Shi'i view of Ali, it certainly shouldn't saturate and overwhelm the article. As I skim through this article, much of what I see is devoted to interjections about what Shias think, events according to Shia sources, incidents covered extensively because they relate to Shia claims, and implicitly, why the Shia view is right. Please see WP:UNDUE in that regard. For that very reason, a lot of content is dedicated to those incidents which support or promote Shia claims (Mubahala, Ghadir Khumm, etc.), and there is an infatuation will all of these unencyclopedic "Hadith of..." articles which were mainly created for the same purpose. There is an attempt to contrast it with Sunni views in places, but it really doesn't make for pleasant reading, and doesn't detract from the fact that the article fails to provide a professional and balanced coverage.

The tone of the prose does not appear to be dispassionate: it frequently comes across as reverential. For example, "... he gathered the Banu Hashim clan in a ceremony and told them clearly that whoever would be the first to accept his invitation would become his successor and inheritor." - This passage is sourced to Shia authors Tabatabae and Ashraf, and clearly designed to promote Ali's claim of successorship and the Shia perspective of events. I doubt you'll find very many academic reliable sources declaring the matter in such unequivocal terms. The least that can be said about it is that it's disputed. "Ali was the first male to enter Islam.[5][1][7][17]" - There is in fact long standing dispute in scholarship on this aspect; some say Zayd bin Harithah was the first male convert, some say Abu Bakr, and others say Ali. Another example: "According to historical reports, Ali continued to assert that the caliphate was his right and said:", followed by a blockquote sourced to a Shia collection known as Najh al-Balagha ("nahjulbalagha.org")- which, as I said earlier, is not a reliable source in this article. Yet it's given a blockquote and called a historical account despite disputes in academia over its authenticity (and no mention of such at all in the respective section). The article is rampant with this kind of skew unfortunately and I have provided only a fraction of the possible examples.

In order to meet GA criteria (especially on neutrality), I believe the article really needs to clear out the partisan sources in totality, use academic sources in an appropriate, responsible manner (and not just as and when they make convenient claims/points), and provide a fair and balanced account of the associated views about Ali, without letting them overwhelm the entire article. ITAQALLAH 20:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything which is based on the partisan sources. I really try to use academic sources. I used Encyclopaedia of Holy Prophet and Companions which is clearly a Sunni source in many cases. However if Sunnis didn't participate and added their ideas, I couldn't do anything. I tried not to inserted Shia tendencies. I haven't inserted Shia viewpoit about Ali's supernatural characteristics. I haven't inserted Shia viewpoint about his sorrow in the community. I haven't inserted Shia viewpoint about his position in rising Islam. I've done my best to use academic and non-partisan sources and I think it's your duty to participate in the article and make it more NPOV. However it's not my fault that Sunnis don't participate and it's not my fault that western scholars such as Madelung and Dakake who work in the field of early caliphate says something which contradicts with Sunny beliefs. It's not my fault that wester encyclopedia such as Iranica and Britannica are more compatible with Shia view. This is academic viewpoint that Ali believe his superiority and right to successorship. based on western scholars researches. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC) .--Seyyed(t-c) 02:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
In the case of Shaqshaqie which I narrated from Nahj al-Balagha, I referenced to a list of Sunni and Shia works which have narrated this sermon. Nahjul Balagha, Mohammad Askari Jafery (1984), pp. 108-112. However I removed all of the other links to Nahj al-Balagha. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe the way in which the sources have been handled is not balanced, and that's the impression I get when you talk about the prime sources in this article being "more compatible with Shia view" (is that why they were used?). It's one thing writing about something mentioned in an academic source, it's another thing altogether when you give it undue weight. That's what I feel is happening with certain areas of the article where a very Shia-centric focus is given. I'm not faulting you for anything, I'm simply saying that this article is quite slanted in my opinion. Source usage in certain areas is inadequate, irrespective of whether they are Sunni or Shia. You seem to believe it's an issue of Sunni vs. Shia, and this I think highlights the fundamental problem with this article. ITAQALLAH 12:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course the article is the result of my viewpoint, not necessarily Shia one, duo to the fact that other wikipedians haven't participated in it. In my view Siege of Uthman is more important than Battle of Nahravan so I explain it more. In my view Ali's knowledge is more important than his power. So I explain it more.
Frankly, I didn't ask you and the other guys to help me with the article!!! I can't edit the article on behalf of you. However when I compare the article with Britannica, Iranica and other encyclopedias, it satisfies me. You can sure that not only you but many Shias believe that the article is quite slanted. I hope you and the other guys who believe so come and participate in the editing instead of writing An outside view.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Note:Ashraf is Sunni and he didn't designed to promote Ali's claim of successorship. Tabatabae is an authentic scholar who narrates from Sunni and Shia sources. His view is authentic as well as Mudelung. However whenever I've narrate something especially from him, tried to write The Shi'a believe or Tabatabaei says. In other cases such as Ali's belief about his right and superiority he's just one of the scholars who says the same thing. --Seyyed(t-c) 13:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sections that can be shortened a fair bit

I believe the following (sub-)sections (and possibly more) can be cleaned up (C) and/or reduced significantly (R) either by rewording or moving parts of text to other articles:

I will try to clean these up as much as I can. I invite others to help. Please take a look at: User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a, especially 'Eliminating redundancy' and 'Achieving flow'. I took a very brief look at these and it works wonders! MP (talk•contribs) 09:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I've recently moved all of them except the first one to the sub-articles. So feel free to shorten them. Please maintain the major points while you reduce them. --Seyyed(t-c) 11:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it was necessary to completely revert the changes I made to Succession to Muhammad. For example, in places the text still seems overly detailed and the grammar is still substandard. I think that if reverts are made, they should be done judiciously. Thanks. MP (talk•contribs) 12:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Please see this[9]. I copied your edition in here. God willing I want to clarify the Shia and Sunni positions about successorship more.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I also have another issue; you reverted edits in other sections too! I invite you to check this. That's why I just reverted back to my last version. MP (talk•contribs) 13:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
If I made a mistake, then you made too.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The edits I made to Succession to Muhammad removed a fair bit of repetition. Historical details such as where the vote was taken to nominate Abu Bakr are clearly irrelevant and can be written more generally in much fewer words. I did the same with other sentences. The link you provided above didn't explain anything about my edits. By the way, I think that I still kept the sources (refs.).MP (talk•contribs) 13:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • First Fitna is not too long. In fact it includes three major battles, arbitrations and plunders. --Seyyed(t-c) 16:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be missing the point; the intention is to shorten the article by tightening up on the grammar and removing (possibly moving to other articles) details that are irrelevant to the article. The intention is not to chop things down willy-nilly just for the sake of reducing kilobytes. Thanks. MP (talk•contribs) 18:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First male who accept Islam

Please see Iranica Ali, though only ten years old, became one of his first followers (in al-Sirat al-nabawiya I, ed. M. Saqqa@, Cairo, 1936, pp. 262-64, Ebn Hesham states that 'Ali was the first male to accept Islam; see also Tabari, Cairo2, II, pp. 309ff.; Ebn S'ad, III/I, pp. 12ff.) Apparently Tabari has similar idea.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That is the view of the author of Iranica based on his study of the sources. Others might agree or disagree. In this article, in my humble opinion, it is best to mention what the primary sources actually say and leave the scholarly analysis of them to the "identity of the first Muslim" article. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's an important issue to have editorial war. However he's referred to the text and he didn't do that unless there would be something. I don't have the primary source and we aren't allowed to refer to them directly. As I know Tabari gathers all of the reports and it doesn't mean he accept them. So somebody should do research on the basis of Tabari. It's too difficult to narrate from Tabari directly. I have referred to him in two cases and in both of them some other sources have endorsed it.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I did not narrate from Tabari. Watt mentions that Ibn Ishaq says Ali was the first and that Tabari quotes other authorities saying that Zayd or Abu Bakr were the first. True, Tabari himself simply narrates the traiditons but this does not mean that Tabari thought they were necessarily wrong. One of the authorities of Tabari, Watt comments, is very early. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Mention of Shi'a/sunni

The mention of statements such as, '...Sunnis say...', '...Shias say...' etc. clearly has to be reduced, as per Itaqallah's comments ('Outside view' above). Where sunnis and shi'as differ over major points (such as who should have succeeded Muhammad as caliph), it is clearly necessary to include such viewpoints. Otherwise, they should be eliminated. Below, I propose a list of places in the article where apparently unnecessary mention of statements such as, 'Sunnis say, Shias say' and the like thereof should be eliminated (or reduced, at the very least):

There may be more places. One solution to reducing/eliminating explicit mention of Sunni/Shi'a (and in some cases, Sufi), is to give an inline citation or explicitly mention the name of the person/people holding such beliefs. Thanks. MP (talk•contribs) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ghadir Khumm: I think we can't neglect the completely different interpretation about this event among Shia, Sunni and Sufis. This event is a major event in Shia as well as Sufism. And you can see Britannica and the other encyclopedia which refer to this event in Ali entry, mention different point of views about it.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't suggest neglecting interpretations about the event; I'm suggesting that too much details should be moved elsewhere. MP (talk•contribs) 08:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Inheritance:I agree with you.
Burial:This is not the point that Shia and Sunni disagree about it. I've emphasized on Shia due to the fact that the basis of this part are Shia Hadith. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, but one of the major drawbacks of this article is that there is too much explicit mention of Shi'a/sunni etc. Please read my comments carefully. I am suggesting that the article can be better written if the viewpoints can be mentioned in a less intrusive manner. MP (talk•contribs) 08:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I personally think the viewpoints should be kept out of the biography section as much as possible, except where absolutely necessary (obviously there will be a reasonable overview of the views in the Sunni/Shia view sections at the end of the article). Content coverage should be determined and balanced according to the balance given by the range of sources which offer biographies of Ali. When someone reads a biography of this nature, they want to know the basic facts at least. I doubt that very many people will enjoy reading an article which is full of contesting claims, or an article that reads like a partisan screed. I intend to have a closer look at the article and try to offer some constructive contributions, but I've been focusing on a few other articles of late. ITAQALLAH 00:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you agree to write the history at those sections and move the teleological interpretations to the other part. However it may reduce the coherence of the article.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unbelievable - Siege of Uthman

I just noticed that the section Siege of Uthman is exactly the same as 4 paragraphs of Siege of Uthman. Copy and paste job ? It's no wonder this article is a mess - copy and pasting without adapting to the article in question is bound to lead to substandard quality. Perhaps the copy and paste was the other way around (same substandard quality, though). MP (talk•contribs) 18:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood. Please pay attention to the histories. I wrote the section in this article and then copied in the other one. The same problem you may find in the other parts. Whenever I finshed a section in this article, I copied it in the related articles which were poor. In fact, I did it to improve the other articles.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is just fine, thanks. If you read the last sentence in my previous comment closely, you'll see that I've covered the point you mentioned. The point I'm making is that copying and pasting huge chunks of text (even if just to improve other articles) between articles is not the best way to improve articles. I've seen this done before, and it really lowers the quality of articles. The text must be adapted to the article in question, emphasising the appropriate points where and when required. Thanks. MP (talk•contribs) 19:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, of course. However I think it's a good way to improve the articles at the first stage.On the other hand the text has been prepared for this article. So we can't say It's no wonder this article is a mess. While I agree that section is too long and should be shortened. God willing, I'll work on the other articles as soon as possible.--Seyyed(t-c) 00:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Just some copyediting

I hope no one minds me copyediting sections of the article. I noticed the Copyeditors banner, but i couldn't stand looking at the terrible writing in some sections. I only worked in one. I will not tamper with the contents, just improve grammar and style. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Shouldn't Arabic words like Ahl al-Bayt and Ulema be italicized? Need to know. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Quoting the Manual of Style, "Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English." So in accordance with that, I believe that capitalizing those words would be appropriate. However, I do believe that the term ulema is used outside of specialized English, but I only base that on the fact that I was familiar with the term back before I familiarized myself with the nuances and terminology of Islam. I think that certain words fall into that category, such as Ayatollah, Imam, Mosque, and so on, but some other terms like fiqh or istihalah al-tanfidh for example, are going to be completely alien to most english-speaking non-muslims. I am not sure where such things would be differentiated, however. Peter Deer (talk) 03:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Well then Ahl al-Bayt would certainly be italicized. As for ulema, I usually see it italicized in books like Islam by Paul Lunde, but I'm not sure if it would be on wikipedia. I have a feeling it does though, since hajj, umma and sahaba are all italicized. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
No prob, I saw your message on the project talk page. Thought I would help a little. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Succession to Muhammad

As I discussed before, I think we should separate historical and theological issues. So I propose to revert edit due to the fact that the later version have merged two issues. So that we can't distinguish historical events and Muslim beliefs. I think we should describe the events separately and then explain Muslims' views which have theological aspects.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. My point is that to shorten the article, the historical details are not too important (not irrelevant; I have included the bare minimum at the start), and the details can be found elsewhere. There is no point in discussing the issues separately when the issues can be discussed together (this also helps to improve the style of the article). Agreed ? MP (talk•contribs) 16:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
No, that's too crucial issue. I even can add more information in that part. There are some other parts which can be shortened like Siege of Uthman and Descendants. However 90kb is not too long for this issue.--Seyyed(t-c) 16:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
If you let me, I want to revert that edition. --Seyyed(t-c) 03:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you've seen this comment and don't disagree with it.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I thought my time would be better spent editing the article instead of arguing over issues that you haven't really addressed. I've given clear reasons for my suggestions above and you have not really justified your point. All you say is, 'I want to revert', or 'No, that's too crucial issue' without saying why. I have tried to compromise by including a few historical details at the start (and, you will note, I haven't removed any citations), but you insist, it must be said, rather stubbornly, on keeping your version. The aim is to improve the article by only including what is absolutely necessary in an otherwise already lengthy article. Thanks. MP (talk•contribs) 07:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I added more historical details. I hope you would agree with it.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you please explain why you reverted this edition. It was based on historical reports of western academicians, which directly related to Ali and his situation. Can you please tell me what is justified?--Seyyed(t-c) 02:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is what you can find in Ali's article in several encyclopedias:
  • Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World:At the Prophet’s death, the community split into two major groups contending for political succession. During a gathering of the ansar (helpers), Abu Bakr was elected first caliph. A group led by �Ali and his supporters (Zubayr, Talha, Miqdad, Salman al-Farsi, and Abu Dharr Ghifari, among others) held that �Ali was the legitimate heir of the Prophet. To preserve the unity of the Muslim umma, �Ali is said to have kept a low profile and concentrated his efforts on religious matters.
  • Encyclopedia Britannica Online:Upon the death of the Prophet in 632, 'Ali and Muhammad's family took charge of the arrangements for his funeral. At the same time, discussions began concerning who should succeed Muhammad. Both the ansar, the people of Medina who had embraced Islam, and the muhajirun, those from Mecca who had migrated to Medina, wanted the successor to come from their group. In order to avoid division, the leaders of the community assembled at saqifat Bani Sa'idah (“the room with the thatched roof of the tribe of Bani Sa'idah”) to choose a successor. After much debate, Abu Bakr was named caliph (khalifah, “successor”), the ruler of the Islamic community. By the time 'Ali finished with matters pertaining to the funeral of the Prophet, he was presented with a fait accompli. He did not protest but retired from public life and dedicated himself to studying and teaching the Qur'an.
  • Encyclopedia Iranica:At the Prophet's death the community split into groups contending for political succession. The Ansáar were about to proclaim Sa'd b. 'Obada caliph, but this was not acceptable to the Mohajerun, who considered themselves closer to the Prophet in kinship. Among them was a group led by 'Ali and his supporters, i.e., Zobayr, Talháa, 'Abbas b. 'Abd-al-Motátáaleb, Meqdad, Salman Faresi, Abu Dharr Ghefari, and 'Ammar b. Yaser, who viewed 'Ali as the Prophet's legitimate heir. Muslim historians agree that a crisis was averted by three prominent Mohajerun: Abu Bakr, 'Omar, and Abu Obayda, who rushed to the gathering of the Ansáar and imposed Abu Bakr as caliph. Their success was facilitated by the jealousy between the Aws and the Kazraj, the two main tribal factions of the Ansáar, and the inactivity of the Prophet's kinsmen in promoting their own cause (M. Shaban, Islamic History A.D. 600-750: A New Interpretation, Cambridge, 1971, pp. 16ff.; E. Shoufani, Al-Ridda and the Muslim Conquests of Arabia, Toronto, 1973, pp. 48ff.). When Abu Bakr's selection to the caliphate was presented as a fait accompli, 'Ali and the Hashimites withheld their oaths of allegiance until after the death of Fatáema. 'Ali did not actively assert his own right because he did not want to throw the nascent Muslim community into strife (Menqar^, Waq¿a Sáeff^n, ed. A. Harun, Cairo, 1382/1962, p. 91).

Now please explain why did you revert my edition.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Madelung and The Succession to Muhammad (book)

I have an issue with the undue emphasis on Madelung's work, I think we should be using a much more broader source pool from which to decide what should be included and how. Academic reviews of Madelung's work (The Succession to Muhammad) say that he is often uncritical of the sources, be they polemical, contradictory, or so on; and that his book sets out to reflect the Shi'i perspective/case (cf. K. Lewinstein in the Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 121, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 2001), pp. 326-327; ). For this he receives critique for presenting "what seems to be an almost partisan argument about the position of `Ali- Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law - and the rest of Muhammad's clan - the Hashemites - as his rightful successor." Madedlung is also criticised for "seletive use of the sources" in which he uncritically accepts reports of a particular skew (cf. I. Mattison in the Journal of Religion, Vol. 78, No. 2 (Apr., 1998), pp. 321-322, in which there is a substantial critique of this aspect of Madelung's book). Another author describes this aspect as "self-serving, tendentious arguments and assumptions about political succession." (cf. M. Morony in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 59, No. 2 (Apr., 2000), pp. 153-156)

The point of this isn't to say that Madelung's book shouldn't be used, because it clearly is a usable source. I don't think we should rely on it as much as is being done because the work is skewed in places, and that's the impression I get too when reading it. It'd be better if we could develop a narrative which is more consistent with the corpus of academic literature on this topic as a whole, and be a bit more careful when handling sources like these. That's my take on the issue anyway. ITAQALLAH 20:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm in Iran. So I can only use what can be found on the web, e.g. google book. However I've used more than 30 books and Madelung is one of them. Madelung have studied the successorship and Ali's caliphate in details . Thus it's a rich source which can be used a lot, while most of the other sources don't allocate more than a chapter to rashidun caliphate. By the way in most of the cases I've tried to refer to more than one source and I appreciate if you introduce me the other sources.
I think I should explain Madelung methodology more. As you may see in Ali#Historiography of Ali's life, Madelung disagrees with those historians and academicians who reject the sources due to polemical tendency. Furthermore he didn't intend to reflect the Shi'i perspective/case. In many cases his viewpoints contradicts with Shia one such as al-Irshad. I guess Lewinstein wasn't familiar with Shia viewpoint well. You see, Madelung didn't describe Ali's successorship and caliphate in the religious context as Shia do. However, I don't want to defend his book. Thus I tried to use different sources.
Finally, you'd better add what you've written here in The Succession to Muhammad (book).--Seyyed(t-c) 15:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm not saying that Madelung intended to forward the Shi'a case, that's just the impression that multiple reviewers (not just one) obtained from the book. I'm aware of Madelung's methodology here, but as noted in the reviews it isn't a conventional one. You say that Madelung doesn't justify Ali's position from a religious perspective (which isn't relevant, as that's not the job of a historian). Perhaps I could clarify a little more about the specific critiques raised. Mattison (reference above) says:

One of the most serious problems with Madelung's analysis is his selective use of the sources. He chooses to accept as authentic reports that support his position and rejects others simply on the basis of his own opinion of individual's motivation (e.g., p. 30). He easily dismisses reports that reflect negatively on 'Ali or his family (e.g. pp. 63, 319), while never acknowledging the problematic nature of reports critical of the Umayyads, the first dynasty of Islam. Instead, stories describing the greed and corruption of the Umayyads and their supporters are not only accepted uncritically, they are related with an unsettling passion. Thus, "the cancer in the body of the caliphate which [Uthman] had nurtured and proved unable to excise because of his doting love for a corrupt and rapacious kin destroyed him" (p. 140). 'Amr ibn al-'As, Umayyad supporter and governor, "was fully aware of the rot in his own guts" (p. 197).

Madelung too-readily projects conspiracies and assumes an unrealistic degree of foresight in individuals he believes were determined to exclude Ali and the Hashemites from the caliphate. Thus, he says, Abu Bakr and Umar, the first and second caliphs successively, conspired to seize the caliphate because Abu Bakr was "a consummate, coolly calculating Mekkan businessman and politician" (p. 39). Yet Madelung himself gives evidence to show that Abu Bakr deeply desired to fulfull the Prophet's wishes (pp. 46-47) and he says that Umar "always stood for a rigorous, unconditional backing of the cause and principles of Islam" (p. 58). But if this is true, how could Madelung insist, on the basis of weak and contradictory evidence, that Umar conspired with Abu Bakr to intentionally subvert the Prophet's wishes for his succession? Madelung also uncritically accepts reports that two wives of Muhammad conspired to make it impossible for the dying prophet to speak to anyone about his wishes for Ali to succeed him.

This is why I have trouble accepting edits like these wherein the content is asserted as fact despite it being clearly opinionated and not subject to widespread agreement (not even the EoI article states it as fact). It is also for the same reason why I'd prefer not having Madelung as a sole or main citation for a passage which is contentious. ITAQALLAH 19:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
As you may see here there's just one point which you can't find in other sources such as encyclopedias i.e. Ali is reported to have repeatedly said that had there been forty me with him he would have resisted.. However we should add other verifiable reports too and you can help us with it. --Seyyed(t-c) 03:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Something that appears uncritically to one person might seem reasonable to another person; a person may decide about the historicity of a report based on a whole lot of things. The correct way to deal with this is to add the opinion of others instead of removing Madelung. --Be happy!! (talk) 04:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi Aminz, It appears that you misunderstood. Itaqillah doesn't want to remove Madelung, but he says some controversial issues shouldn't be written as a clear fact. That's completely correct. However I disagree with him in one point. Which points are controversial? As I narrated from different sources and encyclopedias, the issue isn't controversial among western academicians. There's only one point which you can find merely in Madelung's book i.e. Ali is reported to have repeatedly said that had there been forty men with him he would have resisted. But as I understand, there are consensus in the other cases. I should mention that most of the facts have been derived from Sunni histories. As I've read the Shia account is different. Shia account says Umar fired the door of Fatima's house and then rushed in while Fatimah was behind the door to prevent him. Then a group of men captured Ali and some others and pulled them to the mosque. Fatima was beaten by Qunfuz while she tried to prevent them. In mosque they urged Ali, al-Zubayr, Salman, Abu Dhar and Miqdad to pledge. Also it's written in Shia accounts that Ali and Fatimah went to the house of the companions at night and asked them to support Ali. But only four people came. And it's written that Fatimah spoke in the Masjid al-Nabawia and warned people not to usurp the caliphate. Even it's written that she would have cursed people unless Ali had prevented her. As you see none of these issues have mentioned in the article as well as Madelung's book. --Seyyed(t-c) 05:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the reviewer in saying that "He easily dismisses reports that reflect negatively on 'Ali or his family" has forgotten the fact that in a certain period, the Umayyads were encouraging people to curse Ali and invent and spread negative reports. --Be happy!! (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think he is saying that reports weren't invented. He is criticising Madelung for what he sees as inconsistency: that is, if Madelung dismisses reports reflecting negatively on Ali etc., why does he fail to be as critical upon the anti-Umayyad reports, many of which are also likely to be equally as dubious as the anti-Ali reports. That's where the perceived bias seeps in, according to Matisson. ITAQALLAH 23:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It's interesting that Madelung himself reject former western historians due to similar inconsistency. I think every historian has a framework and check each report, then decide whether it's acceptable or not. By the way, I think the wikipedians don't have to judge about the sources in this way. I tried to narrate different viewpoints in Ali#Siege of Uthman. I suggest to add other viewpoints to solve the problem.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nusairi

In the "As a diety" section the name 'Nusairi' appears. I searched 'Nusayri' and was redirected to the Alawite article. Is this correct? Because I want to link it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Nusayri/Nusairi and Alawi can be used interchangeably: they do refer to the same group. Sometimes the phrase Nusayri is used to refer to Alawis and Kizilbash to Alevis by Orientalists who thought that the names Alawi and Alevi were a single title, and that they were two branches of a similiar movement. --Enzuru 05:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Good to know, I'll pipelink it to the Alawite page. Thanks! --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image

What is problem with the image of Ali?--Mladifilozof (talk) 23:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the problem with the image of Ali's shrine? Peter Deer (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Er, perhaps because this is an article about the person and not the shrine? Tarc (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The shrine is the physical location of the body of Ali. The painting was made by a person who never saw Ali, and is based on his imagination, an imagination inspired by that person's veneration for his position. I see no reason why the Shrine is any less appropriate. Peter Deer (talk) 13:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I see no reason why it is any more appropriate. These "its just a depiction" arguments are the same rehash of the Muhammad image controversy, really. Tarc (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
the Imam Ali. You can't prove he didn't look like this.
the Imam Ali. You can't prove he didn't look like this.

Listen friend I'm a Baha'i. As far as the religious law I follow goes, depictions of Imams aren't a big deal. But if I painted a picture of Nosferatu and claimed it was a depiction of Ali, it would be based just as much on what Ali actually looked like as this painting.

So don't get too trigger-happy with the censorship card here, because my only motivation in this regard is that I feel that the use of the Shrine image is more encyclopedic. Really, what would the point be of removing the image for censorship reasons? It's already in the Shia Islam template for God's sakes. Peter Deer (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read the

former discussions:Talk:Ali/Pictures.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)