Talk:Alfred Lennon

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Good article Alfred Lennon has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Contents

[edit] Freddie

andreasegde 13:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Freddie needs a good clean. andreasegde 22:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have started working on this page, but can not find much in Cynthia's book, or Barry Miles'. andreasegde 10:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Juila was out on the town

Poor Freddie; he was sending money back home and Julia was living at her parents' house and going out on the town. Tsk, tsk... andreasegde 13:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Lennons

This a bloody labyrinth. Who died, and when? Who married who? American or Irish? Bugger me... andreasegde 21:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Worked it out. There are so many different stories out there... andreasegde 07:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There is so much wrong with the Lennon family history - talk about romanticised!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brakn (talk • contribs).

[edit] B Class

I have changed this article to B class. andreasegde 11:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freddie Lennon

Little Freddie Lennon has been put for a GAR. Would someone look at it for stupid mistakes, and give it a wipe with a damp cloth? andreasegde 09:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The references appear invisible

I dunno what template was being intended to use down there in the references to make the notes show up, but it doesn't appear to be working, and it apparently wasn't because of a missing { tag either. It's very difficult to determine if an article is well-referenced when the section isn't easily visible.... Homestarmy 20:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I fixed it. Homestarmy 20:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, another thing, the article history appears slightly unstable as of late, ([1]) if this article is reviewed for GA status, the content won't be changing radically or anything, will it? Homestarmy 20:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA

Good article, presents the subject well. Try to dig up some better (preferably free) images of him. I also recommend getting some references in the parts where there aren't any and, after that, a peer review to flesh out the rest. DoomsDay349 22:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The references could not be more often quoted, as they often came from the same page. He wasn't that famous to warrant more. If anyone has a problem with a paragraph, a sentence, a phrase, or any single word in the article, I can put in a refererence for it. andreasegde 22:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not a good article; the references are from poorly researched books. Brakn 23:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family Tree.

First of all, to say that the original family name was O'Leannain is absolute guesswork and it shouldn't be in the article.

  • Comment: Yes it should, because it is referenced. egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: O'Leannáin, O'Lionnáin, O'Lonáin and O'Luinín have all been anglicized to Lennon. To say that "The original family name was O'Leannain, when they moved to Liverpool" is wrong. The only way to prove it would be to go back centuries and know exactly where they came from in Ireland and then go through parish records, if they exist. When they moved to Liverpool they were called Lennon and probably had been for a good few years.
  • Ok the reference is to Spitz 2005 and I reckon he got it from Ray Coleman's book "Lennon - The Definitive Biography" 1984. Still not right though.Brakn 14:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The first mention of these Lennons in Liverpool is 1849 when John's great grandfather James married. To say that they emigrated fron Ireland because of the famine again is guesswork. In the 1871 census, James Lennon is down as being from County Down. This county did not suffer badly during the famine.

  • Comment: Do you have a published/web reference for that? egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I suppose the published reference would be the General Register Office for England and Wales and the 1871 Census for Liverpool. It would appear that nobody has ever checked them out and that wrong info has been published time and time again in books and on the internet. Brakn 14:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • As for Jack Lennon being a professional singer or a ship's cook, again there is absolutely no proof.
  • Comment: Yes there is. Check the reference. egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm not saying that Jack Lennon was never a professional singer or a ship's cook only that there is no proof. There was John Lennon who married an Elizabeth Morris; he was a ship's cook but it's the wrong family. Freddy Lennon thought that his father was professional singer but then again he also thought that his father was born in Dublin. Brakn 15:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Emigrated to America" - no proof at all.

  • Comment: Same as before. egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Became a "refined" British minstrel who toured America with 'Robertson's Kentucky Minstrels' Vaudeville troupe in the late 1800s" - no proof.

  • Comment: This is getting boring. egde
  • Comment: Yes it is boring. From singing a few songs in the pub it gets escalated into being the next Al Jolson. There is not one official document that says that he emigrated to America and that he was employed as an entertainer.Brakn 15:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Jack's first wife was not American; she was from Liverpool.

  • Comment: Where is your reference? egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

They were married in Liverpool and she did die during childbirth, having her second child Michael. Michael died 15 days after his mother.

  • Comment: At last, we agree. I'm interested; where did you get that? It would be good to go in the article. egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Reference would be the General Register Office for England and Wales - Births, Marriages and Deaths. Brakn 15:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


"Jack became a shipping clerk", he was always a clerk.

  • Comment: Reference needed. egde 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Brakn 10:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you looked at the references? I think not. Spitz worked seven years on his book, and I, for one, am willing to believe he researched it properly. The web references speak for themselves - are you disagreeing with Bill Harry? If you have published/web references stating the opposite, they would be more than welcome. egde 21:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I do disagree with nearly all of the published info about Lennon's family tree. I don't think anybody in the family has ever researched it properly. Because Jack died when Freddy and his siblings were young, none of them knew much about him and their uncles in Liverpool. Brakn 15:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I accept that you disagree, but what standing do you have? Do you have a reference that the Lennons/biographers really do not know? I think that my father is my father because I have a birth certificate, but I can not be truly sure that he was. If you go down that road you can discount history competely. People have researched it, and if we do not accept that, then we have to "put up or shut up", as the saying goes. Give us a reference, but don't give us chaos... :) egde 17:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC) egde 16:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The only standing I have is that I try and sort out things that don't make sense. Surely birth, marriage and death certificate are references. Same with census returns. When Jack married Mary Maguire in 1915 they'd already been living as man and wife for 15 years or more. No one mentions the youngest child they had, also called John, who was born 8 months before Jack died. On both of Jack's marriage certs he names his father as James - so why do all the books go along with the story that his father was called John Lennon who married Elizabeth Morris. The only reason is that the first John Lennon born in 1855, in Liverpoool, was to that couple. But it's not the correct John Lennon. On the census returns, they name Jack's father as James Lennon. It's not all made up. I don't know why "researchers" have not done their job. Someone publishes a book with the wrong info and it spreads. On the web it spreads in days. I'm not trying to cause chaos. Brakn 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Good stuff. Put it in the article with references and I'll put you on my Xmas card list. :) egde 03:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"The original family name was O'Leannain, when they moved to Liverpool during the Great Irish Famine (1845-1849).[1]" Does Spitz reference this in his book or has he copied this from a book of Irish surnames? I only ask because because I don't have Spitz's book and I can't imagine how he or anybody else would know that. Brakn 16:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

References "Mersey Beat: Uncle Charlie and The Lennon’s timeline" cannot be taken seriously.

Bill Harry doesn't sound convinced on "Mersey Beat" and some of his questions were not answered. Unfortunately the article only goes to show how little Freddie and Charlie Lennon knew about the family.

"The Lennon’s timeline" again shows how little they knew. I looked at the page about Jack Lennon and there is not one paragraph which is right. Brakn 17:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If you get the references, then go for it. It would be most welcome. --andreasegde 09:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing

The first two paragraphs of The Lennon Family are very confusing. (I have read it 5 times...) Can you make it simpler? --andreasegde 22:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You know that it would mean taking out most of the first paragraph. :-) Brakn 08:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Brakn! I've just had another good read of it, and I think you've unearthed something quite spectacular. What families can do when it comes to getting it wrong and polishing up the past, huh? I an going to re-do that first paragraph and combine the two, and mention that it's an urban legend. (BTW, If you can state where the records are kept/where you found them, it would be great). --andreasegde 11:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten it. --andreasegde 12:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Andreasegde! Births, marriage and death indexes and census returns can be viewed online at Findmypast.com. There are other sites like Ancestry.co.uk that do much the same job.

Certificates can be ordered online here at www.gro.gov.uk/ - the General Register Office. Brakn 13:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freddie or Alf?

I have a disturbing feeling that he should be called Alf, and not Freddie. His family always called him Alf. If I am wrong I could fix it quite quickly. What's your opinion, Brakn? --andreasegde 12:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It might be just as well to call him Alfred. I believe he was referred to as Alf by the family. Brakn 13:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Done, and thanks (as always). --andreasegde 23:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Daddy Come Home.jpg

Image:Daddy Come Home.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the tag. --andreasegde 23:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Any edit made without a verifiable reference will be deleted, including edits that are slipped into referenced sentences, BTW. --andreasegde (talk) 03:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

==Notable?== Other then co-creating 'John', what's he notable for? GoodDay (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the article speaks for itself. Andrew, you've been doing an astounding job, really... I'm hugely impressed. --kingboyk (talk) 00:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Ahhh... I thank thee kindly. --andreasegde (talk) 11:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oh dear, Northern Ireland.

Ok if we're going to get silly.... "James and Jane were both from County Down, Northern Ireland"

Shouldn't that read as County Down, in what is now known as Northern Ireland?

No need for the change in the first place. Brakn (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Change it Brakn; you're the specialist. :)--andreasegde (talk) 12:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)