Talk:Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse)

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Archives

2005 discussions

Contents 1 Titles from birth to death section 2 Vote 3 A way to run a poll that will actually decide the issue 4 Let's try a more simple procedure already discussed 5 Coronation date ? 6 Archiving 7 Was the execution extrajudicial? 8 Name 9 Name Change Yet Again!!!!! 10 Cousins By Marriage? 11 Feodrovna? 12 Guys should this part be included? 13 TO MANY PHOTOS 14 Birthday 15 Requested move 15.1 Survey 15.2 Discussion 15.3 Godparents

[edit] Titles from birth to death section

I have added an extra title to the titles from birth to death section of this article but I may be wrong. Please feel free to correct me. Following the abdication of Nicholas II, Alexandra seized to be the Empress of all the Russias. Therefore as Nicholas was no longer the reigning monarch and could not revert to his previous titles, Alexandra reverted back to her previous title which is Her Grand Ducal Highness Princess Alexandra (not Alix as she had changed her name by this point) of Hesse and by Rhine. If we take the view that she kept her title (which the Soviets did not allow her to do so), she would have becomes Her Imperial Majesty Empress Alexandra of all the Russias from her husbands abdication in 1917 until 1918. Similarily if none of the above options apply, she would have become Mrs Alexandra Romanov on her husbands abdication or probably Mrs Nicholas Romanov. Consider thinking about this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.96.143 (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

For multi-proposals Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested under WP:RM

Add # followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Propose that the name remains Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse

1. Arrigo 22:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC). Russian consorts need a further general consideration - This article should not be used as rallying point, as now seems happening because Deb made a controversial action, without consensus. She was known "Alexandra Fedorovna" most of her life and all her prominent life, and IT WAS her pre-marital name, as she took it before the marriage. Newspapers and books say (almost) always "Alexandra Fedorovna". There are weighty reasons why she should be at "Alexandra Fedorovna of sth" and not under any artificial "girl name" which is unknown to all but some Germans or whatever. (Remember that Wikipedia naming also favors strongly the name one was best known.) -"and by Rhine" is simply ridiculous. The result of the above vote remains of course inconclusive, as there are effectively two alternatives for the heading written by the originator of the vote (and mentioned in her proposal writing), and the result (if even affirmative, which I doubt, as there are also clever people here) thus cannot mean anything precise - the precise place where to locate remains as not decided fully by the vote (this is the danger of presenting alternatives when officially proposing rename).The last sentence talked about the original renaming proposition - the proposition has now been amended to a clear multi-thing. Arrigo 07:37, 24 July 2005 (UTC) - In my opinion, the best transliteration for the patronymic can be solved later. My vote is for the principle of having the patronymic, and I do not bind myself into any precise transliteration at this stage (actually, I do not care as long as the transliteration is reasonable). Arrigo 09:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
2. mikka (t). Wikipedia has a number of artificial rules in naming kings &c; since internationally there is an acute need of disambiguation. BTW Charlotte of Prussia looks just as ridiculous as Alix. mikka (t) 18:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
3. In Russia she is known as Aleksandra Fyodorovna the Empress. The current title is somewhat clumsy, but acceptable. MvR 19:00, 20 July 2005 (UT
4. Keep at Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse. Also, moved to voting too soon. Besides, strange format for move vote, this here is more like a survey vote. Surveys, is a separate policy issue. Move votes should be more straightforward. --Irpen 21:39, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
5. Agree with Irpen. Perhaps Alexandra Fyodorovna of Russia would be the most natural place for the article. --Ghirlandajo 11:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
6. Keep at Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse. Alexandra Fyodorovna of Russia would probably be even better. KNewman 21:24, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

1. Oppose False names like this should not be used in an encyclopædia. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}
2. Oppose for obvious reasons. Deb 17:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
3. Oppose with Eireann and Deb on this one. Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alexandra Fedorovna of Hesse

1. I am willing to approve also this alternative. Arrigo 07:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

1. # Oppose False names like this should not be used in an encyclopædia. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}
2. Oppose - you said it! Deb 17:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
3. Oppose for the same reasons. Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alexandra Feodorovna of Hesse

1. I am willing to approve also this alternative. Arrigo 07:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Oppose False names like this should not be used in an encyclopædia. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}
2. Oppose - just as bad as the one above. Deb 17:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
3. Oppose - ditto Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
4. Oppose for all the reasons stated.Lethiere 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alexandra of Hesse

1. This one collects most of redirects and seems to be a reasonable tradeoff with general naming conventions of consorts and the habit of Russification of names of Russian tsarinas. mikka (t) 20:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
2. I am willing to approve also this alternative. Arrigo 07:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
3. Apparently I'm allowed to vote for more than one option, so I will also vote for this one. Deb 17:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
4. I will vote for this one as well Astrotrain 21:04, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

   People agree "Alexandra" is better than "Alix", and this is the most commonly used choice containing "Alexandra". Choess 14:08, July 23, 2005 (UTC) strike out vote for compromise name when better option is available

5. Hey I didn't know we were allowed more than one. I will vote for this as well. Paul J 11:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
6. The best of a bad lot. As long as we have the rule that consorts have to go by their pre-marriage name, it's going to have to be "{something} of Hesse" (adding "by Rhine" is just too clunky), and of the two pre-marriage choices (Alix and Alexandra), the latter is much better known. "Alexandra Feodorovna of Hesse" is a horrible abortion , I can't believe y'all are serious about it. Noel 05:59, 31 July 2005
7. Support. And I agree the line "Alexandra Feodorovna of Hesse" is a horrible abortion". FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}
8. Support... Reasonable enough Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alexandra Fyodorovna (with the understanding that in the beginning of the article, added a reference about another A.F. and link to her)

1. I am willing to approve also this alternative. Arrigo 09:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Oppose - not specific enough. Deb 17:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
2. Oppose - as with Deb. Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse)

1. If this really has been proposed, I will approve it as a reasonable alternative to the present silly and non-standard name. (Mea culpa, I forgot to sign.) Deb 17:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Agree Choess 04:12, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
3. Agree as a co-nominator of this variant explained earler. (This voting cycle won't be able to produce consensus. Let's start it over and allow to oppose as well as support!) --Irpen 04:20, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
4. Tolerable name Hardly great, but beats the hell out of most of the rest.FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}
5. Agree. All the other Russian empress articles are now at this location, as well. john k 05:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment (opposing): I am not ready to approve this alternative. Parenthetical disambiguation is messy, and causes difficulties to users. There are other alternatives in this vote which are better. Arrigo 09:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Oppose This is just ugly and unnecessary. Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• Propose move to Alix of Hesse

1. Deb 22:22, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
2. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^(caint) 22:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC) The article is currently at an absurd name.

   //((which apparently makes you feel that it could be at a yet more absurd name.Arrigo 07:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC))

   Choess per Rule 9, "Past Royal Consorts," Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). (If there are to be special rules for Russian consorts, let them be included in the naming conventions before trying to apply them here.) moving my vote Choess 14:08, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

3. Don't really understand the argument, but it's obvious this new title is wrong. Paul J 11:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

   (as the vote and the set of alternatives is now much expanded, could you kindly revisit the issue and decide which of the new alternatives are also possibly wrong, and whether there are now more acceptable altenatives. Arrigo 07:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC))

4. Mackensen (talk) 00:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
5. Nunh-huh 04:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC) :The criteria for choosing a name should be that it is [1] commonly used, [2] simple, and [3] not misleading. Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse is, as has been pointed out, misleading: we shouldn't mix and match maiden and married names. I can't resist the impulse to say: let's try not to move articles because of personal preferences. There are things about the naming conventions I don't much care for, but there's nothing I can't live with. Newcomers especially should be cautious about moving things around: it really is rather a lot of work to clean up, and it doesn't improve the Wikipedia when naming conventions are deviated from. If the naming conventions need changing, by all means present the case for that, but precipitous moves to try and force the issue make bad policy, irritated Wikipedians, and frayed nerves. It would be nice if people could manage to adopt the feeling that it is, after all, not so crucial under which title a person's article winds up (within reason!), as there will always be someone who thinks it's wrong, or wants to add their own diacritics, or an additional title, etc., and the only way we can manage to work together is to choose one.

   "Alexandra" was not her "married name". It was her Russified birth name, assumed after Orthodox baptism. mikka (t) 20:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

   -How is it misleading? and, it is not a mix of "maiden" and "married" names, rather it is a mix of post-conversion first name and the territorial designation which always belonged to her, also after marriage.Arrigo 07:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

6. Whoever deleted my vote the last time, please don't do it again!Astrotrain 18:22, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

   Actually, your vote was Either this or Alexandra of Hesse (with redirects for Empress Alexandra, Tsarina Alexandra etc Astrotrain 20:44, July 20, 2005 (UTC). It was lost during my edit, probably a software glitch, since the history shows two my edits with identical summary. Sorry abolut that. mikka (t) 20:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)- OK. Astrotrain 21:04, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

7. My second choice, after "Alexandra of Hesse"; if we have the rule that consorts go by birth name, it has to be "{something} of Hesse", and she's better known an Alexandra, but if we can't agree on that, Alix is better than "Alexandra Feodorovna", which is too ugly for words. Noel 05:59, 31 July 2005

comment (opposing): Wrongful application of naming standard, going up to the extreme. Arrigo 18:06, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

1. Strongly support consistent with the majority of consorts. Charles 03:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• propose move to Alix of Hesse and by Rhine

1. And I'll vote for this as well. Deb 17:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Me too. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)}

comment (opposing): Wrongful application. In addition, "and by Rhine" is a ridiculous pomposity. Arrigo 18:06, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

1. This name is perfect, but it brings about discrepancies with names for the rest of the Hessians. Arrigo, "by Rhine" was an official designation. Charles 02:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A way to run a poll that will actually decide the issue

The previous vote was inconclusive precisely because it was too complex. The way to settle this is to do it they way they do California recall elections: first take a poll solely on the question of "keep the article at 'Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse'". If there's rough consensus to move it, then you hold another poll to decide what the new name should be, with each person getting one vote only. (I would suggest that in the interest of fairness, 'Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse' be included as an option in the second poll - that way, if the "change it" group don't agree on a different name, those who like AFoH get it back there.) Noel (talk) 18:53, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

This will end up with one variant, collecting the plurality, being a winner. Such may or may not be the least unaceptable for the consensus. Actually, this would be like a political election in the democracy, which WP is not, because it goes by consensus, rather than by plurality. The only way to determine the consensus, is to allow oppose votes and the least opposed name would be a good preliminary indication. Then we run a move vote only with this single variant and see, whether it passes a regular simple move vote. How about that? --Irpen 19:12, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Support Noel's suggestion. Deb 17:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Support Noel too. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 19:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)}

Oppose. That is not the way to do a decision. Agreeing to some move without knowing what is the result. The proposed result should be presented, and IT will be set against another in the vote. I will not accept the proposed procedure for example in a situation to change bylaws (or constituion): it is to give blank authorization to a change, not knowing what would be the result. Basically, the situation is that if there is no one specified other alternative that wins as itself against the specified incumbent, sorry, it will not be a proper decision. As to the great number of alternatives in vote, it should not have meant anything to honest voters. All voting systems are dependent on honesty (i.e. if every voter votes for all those alternatives s/he approves) - everything can go wrong otherwise. Arrigo 20:37, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

oppose as per my note above. We need not a plurality, and not even majority, but consensus. Noel's procedure is NOT designed to determine a consensus. What's wrong with the procedure I proposed above to put all name for support/oppose and than make a run-off vote for the single name that collects the least amount of "oppose" votes? --Irpen 01:32, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. I support Irpen's method for resolution.Lethiere 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What about using Single Transferable Vote (STV) instead of Approval voting and running the vote again. The advantage of STV over Approval voting is that it does allow weighted voting, but althought I think it is better than first past the post or Approval voting it is complicated. In this case thought I think it would be the best solution. Not sure (as I have not looked at it in detail but Instant-runoff voting may be the method of choice as there is only going to be one winner in this case. Philip Baird Shearer 01:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

That method could be a way to have this issue furthered. However we had problems in the beginnings of the ongoing vote particularly due to unfamiliarity with the voting system. There were voters who actually were asking whether they may cast more than one vote (apparently the explanations in the voting system article are not lucid enough or some did not bother to try read). So, before accepting a possibly too complicated voting system, I would ask for example Deb, Jtdirl and Choess to read carefully the IRV article and tell us whether they believe they understand how to vote and how they are counted. It wouldn't be useful for the purpose to have a vote and have important people saying that the vote is too complicated. Arrigo 10:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

As you are well aware, I did not ask whether anyone could vote for more than one option. I asked whether it was acceptable for the proposer of one option to vote for another, something that is normally considered beyond the pale (or should it be "pail"? I never know). Deb 17:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

It's pale. If Instant-runoff voting was to be used then the methods of counting and transfering the votes would have to be agreed in advance. The other option (of course) is to leave the page where it is and visit it again six months after the end of the last vote with another approval vote. By that time a guide line may have been worked for this class of name which would help people decide. Philip Baird Shearer 15:58, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I strongly object to leaving the page where it is. All the other pages on Russian empresses are at Name Patronymic (Birthname of Birthcountry). I don't see why this page should remain at this location, which a number of people have strongly objected to, when we could move it to Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse), which only Arrigo/217 has objected to. john k 18:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. I suggest to put just this one for up and down vote. If there would be a significant number of "oppose" votes, we will get back to deciding what to do next. Otherwise, this would just close the issue. -Irpen 19:18, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Support. Deb 18:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Support. Prsgoddess187 23:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Support.Lethiere 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Support. Charles 04:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Support. Not what I would choose if I were Wiktator, but I'm not; acceptable. Septentrionalis 19:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's try a more simple procedure already discussed

Nothing is going on for a while and there is no solution in sight.

I would like to start a new vote just for one name: Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse). Let's see whether it is rejected and, if not, we can move the article. Reasons explained above. Are there objections to starting this vote for this one name from a clean list? --Irpen 23:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

1. I vote in favor of this version of the name.Lethiere 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coronation date ?

What date did the coronation take place? I can't seem to find it on Nicholas's page either.

The coronation took place on May 14th 1896 which I added, I also added a link to the khodynka tragedy. Stevenscollege 19:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

I went ahead and moved all discussions which looked pretty much dead since 2005, to Archive 1. If I accidentally moved anything that anyone feels was important and needed to the current discussions, please feel free to pull it back here to the main page. --Elonka 19:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was the execution extrajudicial?

If so, Category:People executed by firing squad should go as it only should contain judicial executions. If it is considered judicial by relevant criteria, it cannot be categorized as murder. __meco 16:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It was most definitely extrajudicial. john k 17:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

However, do we want to deny the existence of administrative executions? Septentrionalis 03:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I have raised this question at Category talk:People executed by firing squad. __meco 01:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

This may have been addressed earlier, but should the title of this article not be "Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (Alexandra Fyodorovna)"? s per Wiki conventions re naming of royal/imperial spouses? Mowens35 22:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If that is indeed the convention, then yes. However, I don't think and by Rhine is generally used in articles titles for members of the house. Charles 23:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I checked and so far it's only the grand dukes that and by Rhine isn't used with. It's used for all other members of the house. But Alix, as a consort and for the sake of brevity, doesn't really need it. Charles 23:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I mean her first name, "Alix of Hesse and by Rhine" instead of "Alexandra of Hesse and by Rhine" ... the former is correct, the latter not. Mowens35 23:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The correct way for this title is "Alice of Hesse (Alexandra Fyodorovna)". Having her birth name in front and the name she accepted in Russia in parentheses. Popov 2000

First, I would like to chastice in strongest possible terms the moves taken wihout consultation irrelevant of how I see the new names. As for the name, the person is best known as an empress of Russia which she was as Alexandra Fyodorvna, not a the German princess. But I do see a point with parenthised name, which should be then Alexandra Fyodorvna (Alix of Hesse). Before responding, please make sure you are familiar with past discussions. --Irpen 23:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The naming conventions for other royals, #9 cleary state that past consorts are listed by their maiden name, usually with their regnal name being a redirect to their page. Check Catherine of Aragon (Queen Catherine of England), Alexandra of Denmark (Queen Alexandra of the UK) and Mary of Teck (Queen Mary of the UK); this is the way it is done. And moves that are this controversial, are usually brought up as a requested move and not done unilaterally. Prsgoddess187 23:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily objecting, pls check the past talk and archives on why some users claim that this emrpess qualifies as an excemtion. As for the uniletaral moves, I can nothing but agree with you. However, no direct vote will ever come up with the concensus of a single best name. I suggested a rating voting earlier. This was a very hot discussion which settled to no one's satisfaction. BTW, we can move the article back to AF of Hesse despite that is also not the best name, obviously. Just for the sake of restoring the status quo. --Irpen 00:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then, since Alexandra and Mary were both Empresses of India, should they be part of the exception too? Not being serious there, BTW. The name of this article has caused many edit wars, and arguements over the years, and Alexandra Feodorovna/Fyodorovna of Hesse was the best compromise. I personally think it should be a Alix of Hesse and by Rhine or Alix of Hesse as that was her maiden name. Prsgoddess187 00:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue with Russian empresses is that they change their names. There was no "Alexandra of Hesse", and she is not best known as "Alix of Hesse". We need an overall solution for Russian Empresses in particular. I've several times proposed the format [[Adoptedname Patronymic (Birthname of Birthcountry)]] for Russian Empresses. The form Alix of Hesse is deeply bad, because it goes against the most important rule of naming, which is that the name should be recognizable. Why should the woman known throughout the world as "Empress Maria Fyodorovna of Russia" be at the title Dagmar of Denmark? If this is what the current naming conventions say, they need to be changed - note that only the least well known of all the foreign Russian empresses, Empress Elisabeth Alexeyevna, is located at her birthname (Louise of Baden). All the others have been moved to a bewildering series of alternate names. At any rate, my proposal for this page is Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse) or Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse and by Rhine). john k 01:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I could live with Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse); since that has her adopted name and maiden name in there. Since, technically, she became AF prior to her marriage, at her adoption into the Orthodox Church. Prsgoddess187 01:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone present deny that the subject of this article is best known as (the Enpress) Alexandra?

• If so, the assertion can be documented.
• If not, the question becomes: how do we disambiguate from Alexandra, Empress of India and the other possible values of Alexandra?
  • The present title is not a particularly good way, since it repeats Alexandra.
  • John's suggestion is reasonable; it may not be optimal; but we should do the foreign Empress-consorts consistently - there aren't that many of them. Septentrionalis 19:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change Yet Again!!!!!

The article has been moved again, this time to Alix of Hesse and Rhine by User:Popov 2000, which is ridiculous. I moved the page nack to what it was before.

I myself moved the article to Empress Alexandra of Russia (which was changed yet again), because likely anyone who looks up the words Empress Alexandra of Russia, etc. is looking for the last Russia Empress, wife of Tsar Nicholas II.

I agree along the same lines with User:Irpen and User:John Kenney - the name should be 'Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse Darmstadt).

She was NEVER known as Alexandra Feodorovna of Hesse, or Alix of Hesse and Rhine.

Now, what of the spelling of Feodorovna?? I have a coffee-table-ish book called "Nicholas and Alexandra" that presents the collection of Tsarist-related items of the Hermitage, and in this book her name is spelled Feodorovna (not to mention in every other book, etc. I have ever read with her name in it), not Fyodorovna as is spelled in the article. But since every Wikipedia article has the name spelled in this way, perhaps it should just be left as Fyodorovna?

What does everyone think?????? Sould the article be moved to Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse Darmstadt)???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrlopez2681 (talk • contribs).

Her maiden name was Alix of Hesse and by Rhine; even the article makes this quite clear. As do any number of biographies about her, including "Nicholas and Alexandra" by the Massies, etc. Given Wiki's preference for citing maiden names for spouses of monarchs as article headings, and also given that any simple redirect will lead one directly here, my vote is for "Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (Alexandra Fyodorovna)" or something similar. It would be awfully pleasant to have people discuss this calmly and make a group decision based on Wiki precedence and not emotion. Mowens35 13:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mowens35. Since Wikipedia files past royal consorts under their maiden name, her article title should be that. I am also ok with having her Orthodox name included in parantheses. But she should not be under Empress Alexandra of Russia. This would set a bad precedent for other consorts. Prsgoddess187 14:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JohnK. The reason why her adopted name should go first, IMO, is that it is under this name that she became notable and also a saint. Usually the consorts fall into obscurity and here this is clearly not the case. The barely known princess Alix became a last empress of the Russian Empire, a martyr and a saint. Therefore I support Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse). Her article in EB is named as simply Alexandra. I am asking all to read the archives. Also note that AF is her maiden name since she legally changed it before marriage. A of H is her birth name rather than a maiden one. --Irpen 14:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that all the Russian empresses be at that format. At one point, I moved them all, except this article, to be so, but now they've been moved to the various ends of the earth. This would give us...

• Maria Fyodorovna (Sophia Dorothea of Württemberg)
• Elisabeth Alexeyevna (Louise of Baden)
• Alexandra Fyodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia)
• Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse)
• Maria Fyodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark)
• Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse).

Does anyone object? Currently, only the other Alexandra Fyodorovna is at this location. john k 16:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this a worthy solution. But a suggestion: Should not the articles explain why Alexeynevna and Fyordorovna were adopted as the spouses' patronymics? Mowens35 16:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Ideally. john k 16:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. How about Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse and by Rhine)? 'Hesse and by Rhine' was her proper title before she became empress of Russia James5555 08:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I generally find "Hesse and by Rhine" to be a bit pedantic and unnatural. There aren't any other Alix's of Hesse, so i don't see that shortening it to Hesse is problematic (additionally, the informal "Hesse-Darmstadt" would also seem alright, as it was commonly used both at the time and now to distinguish the two Hessian lines). I will wait to see what others think before actually moving, though. john k 12:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Pendantic, perhaps, but accurate? Certainly. An encyclopaedia should be about accuracy. And contemporary books of nobiliary enrollment, et cetera, especially German ones, typically used the "Hesse and by Rhine" title, and, yes, occasionally, Hesse-Darmstadt. The former, however, seems to have been most accurate and is used in a recent biography of the empress's brother, as I recall.Mowens35 14:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking about accuracy, sadly, I lost all my trust in any accuracy of Mitchell Owens when seeing his this edit [1] where Mitchell Owens somehow had created a false genealogy alleging Mary Victoria Hamilton to descend directly from Empress Josephine. I would not rely on any precision-making of Mitchell Owens, because such may as well be some wishful thinking. ObRoy 17:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Then you are not working in the true spirit of Wiki, in which edits are presumed to be in good faith until proven otherwise. I made the edit in good faith rather than wishful thinking; when the mistake was pointed out, I changed it swiftly and I do believe that I apologized for making it. I'm on the high road on this one. An apology would be nice; on the other hand, you could just get off your high horse, if it can be proven that you have never made a mistake.Mowens35 19:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

But is it English? Not certainly. Scholar.google.com reports only three occurrences of "Hesse and by Rhine" in all; one is informal; one capitalizes By, which is clearly wrong; and one is an auctioneers' catalog (and is about Marie Alexandrovna btw). Septentrionalis 19:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Besides, as I pointed a while ago, the 1911 Britannica, a conteporary source for her years, calls her "Alix of Hesse" not mentioning Rhine. --Irpen 19:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And the English for the state is Hesse-Darmstadt. Septentrionalis 20:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Then let's come up with a solution and stop the ping-pong match. FYI: The Wiki article about her brother Ernest Louis, Grand Duke of Hesse gives his full title as "Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine", with "Grand Duke of Hesse" as shorthand. And all the other rulers of that particular patch of Germanic ground are treated similarly (ie with "and by Rhine" in their formal titles), which would, arguably, make her "Alix of Hesse and by Rhine." Any suggestions? Also her great-great-great-whatever grandfather, Louis I, has the following information in his article: At the Congress of Vienna in 1814/15, Louis had to give up his Westphalian territories, but was compensated with the district of Mainz on the left bank of the Rhine. Because of this addition, he amended his title to Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine. Also, the Wiki article "Hesse-Darmstadt" states the following: "The Grand Duchy changed its name to the Grand Duchy of Hesse and by Rhine in 1816." And her sister Victoria's Wiki article is titled Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine. Mowens35 20:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and (as in that article) Hesse is the simplest form of the country. It is present in the article only for disambiguation; if her brother were certainly and perpetually the only Grand Duke Ernest Louis we would use that. Septentrionalis 20:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you read my entire comment (above) or just part of it? Look at all the articles about the former duchy as well as its grand ducal family, especially the female members: In many cases, their article titles are "Hesse and by Rhine" (see her sister Victoria's article) ... This discussion should include all of this, because whatever we decide here will impact all associated articles, which may or may not have to be renamed as well. It's called consistency.Mowens35 20:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I responded to what seemed worth responding to: as for the rest:

• Wikipedia is inconsistent; and ought to be;
• If I thought this inconsistency worth acting on, I would change all those references to Hesse or Hesse-Darmstadt as seemed appropriate. Septentrionalis 20:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And I disagree, as is clear. I still believe the best and most accurate title is Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (Alexandra Fyodorovna). Just because Wiki is inconsistent (which no real encyclopaedia should be) doesn't mean it should be even slightly incorrect. Mowens35 21:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Inconsistent" is not the same as "incorrect". The 1911 Britannica managed it all the time. This is in fact part of neutrality: there are three defensible names for the state; it is a good thing we use all of them; ideally we would use all three of them in each article, but that would be clumsy and unreadable. Septentrionalis 21:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Then there should be only one argument here re the correct title: It should be Alix, not Alexandra. That was her birth name, and though she converted to the Orthodox church very shortly before the wedding ceremony, she should be, logically, Alix of Hesse and by Rhine. That should be please everybody; it's correct and yet inconsistent at the same time. Wouldn't you agree?Mowens35 21:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mowens35 - it should be Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (Alexandra Fyodorovna). And as much as wikipedia would aspire to being an encyclopedia, it is not. Britannica is a serious encyclopedia, so is Encarta. Wikipedia is a fanboy thing, a thing for people with too much time on their hands. THe first step towards making wikipedia an encyclopedia is to at least get the article titles right.James5555 22:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Then neither of you understand Wikipedia naming policy, which is to use English (and, yes, it is policy; WP:NAME includes it. We are not here for someone's arbitrary notion of "correctness"; we are here to communicate to English-speakers.Septentrionalis 23:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, as I see them, the situation is this:

1. Alix's title was "Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein".
2. A completely literal translation of this into English is "Princess of Hesse and by Rhine." I don't think this makes particularly much sense in English. Does it mean she is "Princess by Rhine?" I'm not sure what this means.
3. Other German noble particles are often not translated directly. Notably, "zu," which literally means "at" or "to" is generally translated "of" in noble particles. "Prince Felix of Schwarzenberg," not "Prince Felix at Schwarzenberg." I am fairly certain I have seen this done with the Hesse-Darmstadt title, so that it is translated "of Hesse and the Rhine". This does make sense in English, but loses some of the meaning of the German.
4. For all Hessian titles, it is perfectly correct to refer to them as simply "Prince/ss of Hesse". This is a true statement. It is not as specific as it might be, but is certainly not incorrect.
5. Additionally, an informal way to distinguish between the various Hessian branches was by territorial designation. Electoral Hesse was known as "Hesse-Kassel," and Grand Ducal Hesse as "Hesse-Darmstadt." This was not strictly correct, but is certainly not incorrect. The title of the British queen we have at Caroline of Ansbach was actually "Margravine of Brandenburg." Ansbach didn't even show up in her formal titles, but her branch was always called "Brandenburg-Ansbach," and this is usually shortened in English usage to merely "Ansbach.' Such usage is not a completely accurate rendering of her formal title, but there is nothing to indicate that our purpose here is to give a completely accurate rendering of her formal title.
6. There is only one person who is ever referred to in English as "Alix of Hesse" (her mother was "Alice"). Certainly there is only one such person who was also empress of Russia as "Alexandra Fyodorovna."

Given that, I see no particular reason to insist on the formal title. I would say this certainly for her, and also for most other members of the family. I'd add that "Hesse-Darmstadt" is a much more commonly used designation for the same thing, and one that was used for junior dynasts, for instance, the Almanach de Gotha, which was the authoritative source on European royal genealogy at the time. The article should, of course, give her formal full title in the text, but there's no particular need to have it in the title. john k 23:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

One last time, "Hesse and by Rhine" was the full official name of the grand duchy from which she came. So says Wiki articles about Hesse, her father, her brother, grandfather, et cetera, all of which I mentioned earlier (please look). That is what it means. And forgive the caps but ALL I WANT IS FOR THE TITLE TO BE ALIX NOT ALEXANDRA. That is all. Can we at least agree on that before trying to figure out the rest? And I do feel if we're going to call her "Alix of Hesse" (without "and by Rhine"), other members of the family, ie article titles, should conform.Mowens35 23:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• No. Alix is not English usage; and therefore UNACCEPTABLE.</countercaps>.
• Literal translations of German usage are irrelevant to English WP naming policy; we should use them only when English does. (i.e. often, but not always).
• Attempting a literal one-for-one mapping of German prepositions into English is silly to begin with. zu is cognate with, and often corresponds to, English to, but not always; "the door is to", while a literal claque from the German, is only meaningful as a piece of comic Pennsylvania Dutch dialogue. Septentrionalis 00:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, she wrote her name as ALIX in printed correspondence I have seen, ie published letters, signatures on photographs, et cetera. It was her name, her legal name, so therefore is her name, whether you think it is not English usage or not. How can someone's actual birth name be UNACCEPTABLE, as you say? Even her grandmother, Queen Victoria, wrote letters to her as ALIX. Mowens35 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it's not how we name articles. Her distant ancestor had birth name Georg Ludwig, but we have him at George I of Great Britain, where most readers will expect to find him. This policy is to be changed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions, not here.

Her husband signed his letters Nicky, but Nicholas II of Russia is his article title.

There was another great princess who signed her letters "Mrs. Morley." This did not make it her name, just what she used as signature. Even if it had, we are going to call her Anne of Great Britain. So here. Septentrionalis 00:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to disagree, but as the Massie biography of the imperial couple points out, her legal birth name was Alix, which has no English equivalent; just calling her Alexandra doesn't make it right as her birth name because it wasn't. Alexandra is the name she acquired after her conversion it to the Orthodox religion as an adult. Her true name was Alix; have you read the article? Or the Massie biography? Or any biography of her? Alix is not a nickname for Alexandra; it was her birth name. I think you both utterly fail to see this. And to use the Nicky/Nicholas analogy is willfully ignorant; Nicky was his nickname; Alix was her real name, not her nickname. Since there is no direct English equivalent to the name she was born with and used until she converted to Orthodoxy, there is no reason to ignore it and use something incorrect. Mowens35 00:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's an answer to the argument: "She signed letters by that name, so we must use it, no matter how confusing;" which is a fallacy. Septentrionalis 03:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Alix is not her "true" name in a sense that Alexandra would then be a false name. Alix is her birth name which she changed upon her conversion. She became the most notable as Alexandra and the article should be under the name under which the person got such notability. The article about the Pope John Paul II is not called Karol Wojtyla. --Irpen 00:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A better solution might be this: the article title should be "Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse)", which is correct, logical, etc, and which conforms to similar article titles for Russian empresses more famously known for their post-Orthodox conversion names, ie her mother in law, who is listed thusly: Maria Fyodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark). Would that be acceptable, given the frequency of precedence for this ie Russian empresses consort?Mowens35 00:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This title would be totally acceptable to me. In fact, I argued for it many times. --Irpen 01:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Didn't I suggest that ages ago? I didn't even think we were arguing about it anymore. If nobody objects, I'm going to move to Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse). I will follow by moving the other articles on Russian empress consorts? john k 02:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The two above appear to object, but I concur. Septentrionalis 03:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Er, Irpen and Mowens appear to have both agreed that this title would be fine. john k 03:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am all for the change you suggest. Then we will finally archive these endless discussions all devoted to the title and people interested in improving the article itself will be talking here. --Irpen 04:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Several editors ebove have made the basic mistake of calling the consort name as maiden name, The historical naming, which also is used as convention here, means pre-marital name - in some cases, it produces a differenmt result, compare Wallis Watfield Simpson and Josephine de Beauharnais. Also Alexandra Fyodorovna seems to be such case. ObRoy 17:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cousins By Marriage?

How is it that Princess Alix and Tsarevich Nicholas were "cousins by marriage"? I thought that your cousin by marriage was your cousin's spouse or your spouse's cousin. When Alix and Nicholas met, neither of them had ever been married, so how were they related? — EgbertW 06:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The closest relationship between Princess Alix and Nicholas is that of second cousins. They shared descent from Grand Duke Louis II of Hesse and by Rhine and Princess Wilhelmine of Baden as follows:

Grand Duke Louis II and Wilhelmine of Baden ---> Maria Alexandrovna ---> Alexander III of Russia ---> Nicholas II

Grand Duke Louis II and Wilhelmine of Baden ---> Prince Charles Louis William ---> Grand Duke Louis IV ---> Princess Alix (Alexandra Feodorovna)

The cousins by marriage thing ought to be removed. Hope this helps. Charles 08:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's worth noting that biologically, Empress Maria Alexandrovna was probably not the daughter of Grand Duke Ludwig II, unlike her (half-?)brother Prince Karl. She and her brother Prince Alexander were likely their mother's illegitimate children by her mistress lover. But, yeah, "cousins by marriage" doesn't make any sense. john k 10:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Closest relationship through any marriage seems to have been: Nicholas was Alexandra's sister's nephew-by-marriage at the time of their own wedding. ObRoy 17:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That is incredibly convoluted and is probably not worth mentioning as such. Charles 18:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

"Convolouted" has not seemingly been any hindrance when louting such formulations as "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", and adding the honorific "princess" to names where it actually is not very necessary for comprehension. :) ObRoy 18:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in books and other material about Alexandra, it is mentioned that (1) one of the reasons she first became acquainted with Nicholas was the fact that her elder sister had already almost ten years been married with Nicholas' uncle (and was living in Russia); and (2) when Alexandra settled in Russia to marry and when married, lived there, her sister's presence in the same country, and such family relations, were part of Alexandra's experience (whatever they were) to settle and live. Therefore, I am greatly amazed that someone is able to claim "probably not worth mentioning as such" about this relationship. ObRoy 18:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That is worth mentioning but not in the manner that was previously described. Charles 18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad I asked -- that's some good detailed information. Looking further into their family trees, I noticed that Nicholas and Alix were also both first cousins of King George V (through different grandparents):

• Queen Victoria --> Edward VII --> George V
• Queen Victoria --> Princess Alice --> Princess Alix

• Christian IX --> Alexandra --> George V
• Christian IX --> Dagmar --> Nicholas II

— EgbertW 21:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feodrovna?

Can I just ask why the did consorts of Russian emporers take the surname or patronmyic of Feodrovna on marriage? Penrithguy 19:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

They didn't always. Alexander II's consort was Alexandrovna, Alexander I's was Alexeyevna, as were Paul's first wife and Catherine the Great. john k 04:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

But she used Feodorova because her father's name was not that of an Orthodox saint. I don't know why Feodor; it may have sounded like Friedrich, the first of his actual names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guys should this part be included?

Hey guys, I question the need to include the statement below in the article. It is not directly related to Alexandra Fyodorovna and should really be placed in the Rasputin article under his biography section.

"Rasputin was eventually murdered. Amongst the conspirators was a nobleman Prince Felix Yusupov and a member of the Romanov family Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, who was married to the Tsar's niece Princess Irina (daughter of Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna and Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich) in 1916."

I have deleted it from the article and placed it here so that it is not lost. Cheers61.68.183.41 14:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems clearly relevant; although it could well be shortened. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hi everyone! Princess (more correctly: Grand Duchess) Irina was not married to Dmitri Pavlovich, but to Felix Yusupov! Who will correct this? -- Tellervo 16:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TO MANY PHOTOS

I am getting so tired of seeing articles that look totally RIDICULOUS because some users want to over-stuff them with images. With little regard for layout, these users care only that the said photos are placed right next to whichever paragraph that mentions whatever is in the image. Although this can be a good thing it must be done with taste - this article looks TERRIBLE!!

--Mrlopez2681 (talk) 07:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I have attempted to make the article look a little better by removing the many images that can easily be viewed in their own respective articles, while still trying to retain a few.

--Mrlopez2681 (talk) 03:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birthday

Alix was born on the 6th of June 1872. I correct the info in the article. If somebody ask me, I give you references.--AndreaMimi (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse) to Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse) as the result of a move request.

[edit] Godparents

One of Alix's godparents is noted as the Landgravine of Hesse. However when you click on the link, it brings you to "Duchess Anna of Prussia and Jülich-Cleves-Berg (3 July 1576 - 30 August 1625) "

Clearly this woman could not have been the godmother of a princess born in 1872. Please amend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welys (talk • contribs) 11:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)