Talk:Alexander the Great/Archive 7

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

In Popular Culture

The In Popular Culture sections of this article appear to be trivia; as such I plan to delete them when I get home tonight, unless there are struenuous objections, or unless someone is willing to revise as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history#Miscellaneous content guidelines. UnDeadGoat 16:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following information, becasue it is for the most part trivial, and was only a smattering of facts rather than an integration into meaningful text.02:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry I did not see this in time to object; I would have been less sweeping. The list of Alexandrias should exist, here or elsewhere, and be linked to; some of the novels are worth keeping; and some of the rest of this should be See Alsos. JCScaliger 03:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
My problem with the Alexandrias is that this article is extremely long, and it's just a list; if there is a paragraph within the text that can be made that talks about him as a city founder, followed by the cities, that would make more sense than just having the cities as part of a collection of stuff people felt important to add to the bottom. Also, if the novels can be coherently incorporated into the "Legacy" material, as opposed to part of a list that also includes every song a Wikipedian likes with Alexander the Great in it, that would be good as well. UnDeadGoat 15:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You might imitate the model at Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc. Durova 03:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What the heck? I've gone ahead and created it myself as Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great. Durova 04:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Main towns founded by Alexander

Around seventy towns or outposts are claimed to have been founded by Alexander.[1] Some of the main ones are:

Alexander as City-Planner

By selecting the right angle of the streets, Alexander made the city breathe with the etesian winds [the northwestern winds that blow during the summer months], so that as these blow across a great expanse of sea, they cool the air of the town, and so he provided its inhabitants with a moderate climate and good health. Alexander also laid out the walls so that they were at once exceedingly large and marvelously strong.
—Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, volume 8.

In popular culture

Novels

  • From 1969 to 1981, Mary Renault wrote a historical fiction trilogy on the life of Alexander: Fire From Heaven (about his early life), The Persian Boy (about his conquest of Persia, his expedition to India, and his death, seen from the viewpoint of Bagoas, a Persian eunuch and Alexander's eromenos), and Funeral Games (about the events following his death). Alexander also appears briefly in Renault's novel The Mask of Apollo, and is alluded to directly in The Last of the Wine and indirectly in The Praise Singer. In addition to the fiction, Renault also wrote a non-fiction biography, The Nature of Alexander.
  • French writer Roger Peyrefitte wrote a trilogy about Alexander the great which is regarded as a masterpiece of erudition : La Jeunesse d'Alexandre (1977), Les Conquêtes d'Alexandre (1979) and Alexandre le Grand (1981).
  • A further trilogy of novels about Alexander was written in Italian by Valerio Massimo Manfredi and subsequently published in an English translation, entitled Child of a Dream, The Sands of Ammon and The Ends of the Earth.
  • David Gemmel's Dark Prince features Alexander as the chosen vessel for a world-destroying demon king. ISBN 0-345-37910-1.
  • Steven Pressfield's 2004 book The Virtues of War is told from the first-person perspective of Alexander. Pressfield's novel The Afghan Campaign is told from the point of view of a soldier in Alexander's army. Alexander makes several brief appearances in the novel.
  • Rudyard Kipling's story "The Man Who Would Be King" (1888) provides some glimpses of Alexander's legacy. Made into a movie of the same title in 1975, starring Sean Connery and Michael Caine.

TV series

The Smallville version of the Cuirass of Alexander the Great, as seen in the first season episode, "Rogue"
The Smallville version of the Cuirass of Alexander the Great, as seen in the first season episode, "Rogue"

Movies

Other works

Alexander in the expansion pack Rome: Total War Alexander.
Alexander in the expansion pack Rome: Total War Alexander.
  • The 2000 album Born from the string quartet bond, includes a song titled "Alexander the Great".
  • The British heavy metal band Iron Maiden had a song entitled "Alexander the Great" on their album Somewhere in Time (1986). The song describes Alexander's life, but contains one inaccuracy: In the song it is stated that Alexander's army would not follow him into India.
  • Brazilian musician Caetano Veloso's 1998 album Livro includes an epic song about Alexander called "Alexandre".
  • Alexander is a character in the computer games Empire Earth and Rise of Nations: Thrones and Patriots. He is a civilization leader in the 2005 computer game Sid Meier's Civilization IV , where Alexander is the lone leader of the Greek civilization and has the leader traits "Aggressive" and "Philosophical". In the Rome Total War expansion pack, Alexander, Alexander the Great's conquests are chronicled in a campaign and six battles are modeled on Alexander's early battles. Alexander the Great is also featured in the game called Rise and Fall: Civilizations at War released by Midway games.
  • In Alan Moore's Watchmen, one of the main characters, Ozymandias, goes into detail about how he followed in Alexander the Great's footsteps in order to achieve enlightenment.

Robin Lane-Fox

I find it to be a little unbalanced to have Robin Lane-Fox as an authority on Alexander the Great on this page, at least in regards to Alexander's personal life. His own biography stub contains a link in which he made a controversial homophobic remark, which I feel casts some doubt on his assertions about Alexander concerning Haephestion and Bagoas. If there is to be a source that is doubtful of these relationships, it should not be him at the very least. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.43.113.2 (talk • contribs) 09:20, October 11, 2006 (UTC)

That is an interesting remark to make given that most people do not consider Robin Lane-Fox a homophob and given as to how he is considered as a "serious scholar" on Alexander, I see no bases for his assertions to be viewed as "doubtful". ~ Mallaccaos 11 October 2006
Robin Lane Fox is one of the foremost Alexander scholars writing in English. I read the linked story, and his remarks don't seem offensive to me (I haven't heard them in context, however). At any rate, I don't see how this casts any doubt on what he says about Alexander, and in fact, if you read the quotes on this talk page, he says that Alexander probably had sexual relationships with men, and that this was normal in ancient Greece. If he were a homophobe, wouldn't he say the opposite? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm certain that he is a serious scholar on Alexander but bias can taint research often. I do know for a fact that several other confirmed historical figures with gay leanings (I will not get into pretending that gay existed as a concept then as it does not; regardless, same-sex relationships would be the concern here) have been vehemently denied by scholars, such as Leonardo and Richard the Lionheart.
Akhilleus, believe me, it was not an innocuous comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.43.113.2 (talk • contribs) 11:38, October 17, 2006 (UTC)
You may be correct in your opinion of Fox, but what's really important for the purposes of this article is whether reliable sources have criticized his scholarship for bias. If so, we can note that. If not, it really doesn't fall under Wikipedia's purview to make judgments of that sort — as Akhilleus says, Fox is one of the foremost Alexander scholars writing in English, and it would be remiss of us to exclude him from this article based on a passing remark on a gardening programme. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
There's also the small point that Fox believes that A. had relationships with Hephaistion and Bagoas. If he's a homophobe (which I don't see any evidence for) it hasn't prevented him from seeing A. in same-sex relationships. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Christ I'm so sick of people taking it for granted that homosexuality was so common and accepted everywhere in ancient Greece just because some twat found an urn with a gay motive. If I paint a gay painting and hide it does that mean were all gay? 0.01 % or less (no kidding) of all the urns found show homosexuality. Yet hollywood has made it look like it was more like 99.9 %. There are books that say it was common and books that say it wasn't. So stop taking it for granted! DerMeister 18:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your input but it is also possible that years of homosexuality being perceived as immoral would also lead to the destruction of art pertaining to that very subject. In any case, that's not the point I'm making. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.43.113.2 (talk • contribs) 11:38, October 17, 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution, but I think you missed the note at the top of the page saying "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Do you have any specific concerns about the article or the article-related matters being discussed on this talk page, or did you just come here to complain about the gay agenda? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Revert abuse over "Greek pederasty" category

Apro, please do not impose your unsupported views on this article. It is not your place to insert you opinion into the commentaries of ancient historians who spoke clearly enough on this topic, as have modern ones, for that matter. I will not follow your example and revert you a third time - hopefully others are paying attention to what you are doing here. Haiduc 02:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's time to seek some form of dispute resolution. I already tried an RfC on this issue, but that got nowhere because of the rampant sockpuppetry going on at the time. I'm not sure where else to turn. It seems to me that there are a few related issues here (this is my statement of the issues, and not necessarily a neutral one):
1)The "personal life" section in the article is written to make it seem as if no ancient sources or modern scholars think that Alexander had sexual relationships with men, when several ancient sources imply that he did, and at least two modern scholars, Robin Lane Fox and Paul Cartledge, believe that Alexander had same-sex relationships (as was typical then). Both scholars are quoted on this talk page, with references. The article is especially misleading in that it quotes Fox in a way that misrepresents his views.
2)Even though the "personal life" section is written in a biased way, WP readers who are interested in the topic of ancient Greek (homo)sexuality might be interested in reading it. It would be appropriate to have some category in the article to help those readers find the section. Several categories have been proposed: LGBT people from Greece, Greek pederasty, Greek homosexuality. Despite some editors' objections, both Greek pederasty and Greek homosexuality are terms that are widely used in scholarship, and when properly understood are not anachronistic. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree for the very good points raised by Apro in his above comments. Placing sexual orientation categories in biographies for ancient peoples, particular when the facts are not clear and disputed, is not warrented since none of the ancients identified with modern LGB categories and nowhere are we told that Alexander participated in pederasty relationships. Mallaccaos 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotation from Robin Lane Fox

The "personal life" section quotes Robin Lane Fox in a way that is misleading. The article currently quotes Fox as someone who questions whether there was a sexual relationship between A. and Hephaistion:

This assertion of a sexual relationship between Alexander and Hephaiston is questioned by some historians. Robin Lane Fox writes that while "later gossip claimed that Alexander had a love affair with Hephaestion", no contemporary history states this. However, Fox adds, "the facts show that the two men’s friendship was exceptionally deep and close." Following Hephaestion's death, Alexander mourned him greatly, and did not eat for days.

But here's the full quote from Fox's The Search for Alexander, pp. 67-68: "Among the Pages, one name stands out, the Hephaistion with whom later gossip claimed that Alexander had a love affair. No contemporary history states this, but the facts show that the two men's friendship was exceptionally deep and close. Contemporaries called Hephaistion the Patroclus to Alexander's Achilles, the Homeric friendship which men of Alexander's age assumed to have a sexual element. Later, Alexander planned his court marriages so that Hephaistion's children should be his own nephews, a special honor. When Hephaistion died prematurely, Alexander's grief burst all lesser limits. There is much gossip about his mourning, but a hard core attests its scale. There is no doubting Alexander's normal affairs with women at the same time. It is probably mere rumor that he once refused a woman whom his parents had tried to force on him. Most sane young men, anyway, would have followed suit. But an affair with a man of similar age was quite accepted in Greek society. The topic was viewed with a charming inconsistency. Old or excessive homosexuals were disliked, but young men could love and learn from each other without social disapproval. The custom ran deep in Greek culture, fed, perhaps, by the small role which many fathers played in their young sons' lives. Among Macedonian kings, the love of boys was nothing unusual. But only the contemporary pamphleteer Theopompus claimed mischievously that the whole court at Pella was mad for it, beards and all."

Fox doesn't say that A. had a sexual relationship with Hephaistion, but says that it would have been normal if he had; clearly, he believes that A. and Hephaistion might have been lovers. This opinion is similar to the opinion he expresses in the Archaeology interview, quoted above. In his book Alexander the Great Fox is more definite: "At the age of thirty Alexander was still Hephaistion's lover although most young Greeks would have grown out of the fashion by then and an older man would have given up or turned to a young attraction." Fox has never expressed any serious doubt that Alexander and Hephaistion were lovers, and in fact has said that they likely were. I'd say that the article's distortion of Fox's views is a good example of suppression of information. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The article did not suppress information, it gave accounts on both sides of the issue and showed how uncertain the whole matter is by scholars. It quoted Fox's own words, if anything the article suppresses and takes more of a one sided view now. Fox plainly states that most of this theory is based on late gossip and not with contemporaries accounts, which he follows up with that hint on the matter regarding the "close friendship" comment, as if that is evidence of anything. Fox uses the term assume when he talks about any supposed "Homeric sexual friendship relationship", meaning its still not known for certain. Plus not one of our ancient historians on Alexander ever use the terms eromenos or erastes which some translate to means "lover" to describe either Alexander or Hephaistion. If as some theorizes that such a Homeric "sexual" friendships were the norm of ancient Greece, why would these ancient historians, who's work most late authors base their material on, omitte in adding this little fact if its true as Fox and some other modern historians claim that Alexander's "romatic physical" feeling were so strong for Hephaistion? Fox states very clearly what was written originally in the article and it is by his own admission that he says this, he was not misquoted. What I do find interesting though is the fact that you omitted Fox's own quote of:"No contemporary history states this, but the facts show that the two men's friendship was exceptionally deep and close." for a more one sided view in trying to portray some sort of sexual relationship between the two being is certain when in fact it was not, again its Fox's own words that state this even when he trys to justify some sort of physichal relationship when not contemporary historian ever says this. Apro 12 October 2006
Instead of having 3 different quotes from Fox, I have rephrased the beginning sentence of the paragraph to read: "No contemporary source states that Alexander and Hephaistion were lovers." which is equivalent to the quote "No contemporary history states this,..." The last sentence of the paragraph now reads "Alexander and Hephaistion remained, in Fox's words, 'exceptionally deep and close' friends until Hephaestion's untimely death, after which Alexander mourned him greatly, and did not eat for days." This corresponds to the quote "the facts show that the two men's friendship was exceptionally deep and close." Nothing's left out.
If you can find a reliable secondary source that argues that the relationship of Alexander and Hephaistion was definitely not sexual, it should be included in the article. But that's not what Fox thinks. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
No that is deliberate omitting and rewording Fox's personal quote to slate the article a certain way and promote one point of view. As it was said above, I find it interesting that the quote which was reworded is one of the ones which points to evidence that Alexander's supposed sexual relation is not clear. If this article is suppose to be fair and balance as it claims then his words should not be omitted. Apro 12 October 2006
Apro, nothing from that quote that you added back in has been omitted. The paragraph begins "No contemporary historian states that Alexander were lovers" and ends "Alexander and Hephaistion remained, in Fox's words, 'exceptionally deep and close' friends". Please read the whole quote from Fox above before alleging that the article is slanting things, because I don't think there's any way you can interpret the passage as arguing against the possiblity that A. and H. had a sexual relationship. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Apro, I agree with Akhilleus on this: I've got another book of Lane Fox, his biography Alexander the Great, in which he openly and strongly argues that the Hepaestion-Alexander relation was also sexual. This doesn't mean that Lane Fox's arguments are The Truth™; only that you can't twist his arguments so to make his views seem yours. There are historians who don't agree with Lane Fox; quote from them, opposing their povs to his pov.--Aldux 18:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)