Talk:Alexander Pushkin

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Contents 1 Pushkin as a "Black Russian" 2 There needs to be more info on his African ancestry 3 Gratuitous commentary 4 Influenced Henry James? 5 Murdered? 6 List of famous duels 7 Totally destroyed? 8 Foot Fetish? 9 Poland in his works 10 External link 11 Delisted as Good Article 12 Ridiculousness 13 reference 14 Missing work "chill winds still blow" (1828) 15 Natalia (Daughter) 16 Aleksandr vs. Alexander

[edit] Pushkin as a "Black Russian"

It is sometimes claimed (mainly by Afrocentrists) that Pushkin was black[1][2]. This claim is false. While Pushkin's great-grandfather Abram Gannibal was black, all other ancestral lines of the poet consisted of whites, and thus Pushkin was no more than 1/8 black. US Afrocentrists by the one-drop rule might still claim Pushkin as "colored", but that is an issue of US, not Russian sociology, and doesn't change the numbers of one African great-grandparent vs. seven Eurasian ones.

Sir, were not his parents first or second cousins(both descended Gannibal)? If so, then I would think that would one-quarter African(a quadroon)? --Anglius 21:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record, the legal terms octoroon and quadroon are considered fairly inappropriate as a description due to their history of determining whether or not a person's civil rights were as legitimate as others (in marriage, voting rights, etc). Even mullato is considered inappropriate in English-speaking countries for the implication that the "half-breed" is a mule. It's just as easy to use "1/8th", "1/4", "an eighth" or "a quarter". Anyway, it'd be interesting to see something on how Russian society viewed a person's race then. Bobak 18:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my dear Bobak, but those words were used in Western countries at that time(apparently not in Russia, though.)--Anglius 19:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Pushkin identified HIMSELF as a Negro, therefore, he made the personal choice to do so.
  • What is the source of this information, please? Ahasuerus 21:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It isn't maninly claimed by Afrocentrics, many scholars claim it... in fact, it is taken to be common knowledge that Pushkin was, indeed, part black, and referred to himself as such on many occasions. He once said (concerning enslaved Africans in America): "I feel very deeply for my Negro brothers." He also made many reference to being of African descent in his novel "The Blackmoor of Peter the Great" and was known to be very proud of his Abyssinian (Ethiopian) great-grandfather.

where does it say that he identified as a "negro"? was that word even in use in russia during that time period? he was part black, and we all know, but let's not ignore the other ⅞ of his heritage. Colorfulharp233 01:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

During XVII-XIX c. a word "arap", which is an outdated version of "arab" were is use for black people. "Arap" is translated as "moor" or "blackmoor". Netrat_msk (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Russian DOESN'T have another word. Period. It's "negr" and it is, in the words of a famous film character, "the way we were taught in geography class". It's not a slur. [in any case, negro essentially means black (the colour) in several languages anyway, although the Russian word for the colour is 'chernyj', which actually IS a (modern) ethnic slur, but generally used to describe people of Caucausian decent (the Caucasus is inhabited by Turkic tribes that appear thoroughly Middle Eastern, not European, America!)] 128.195.186.193 23:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Adieu

As a longtime member of a Pushkin book club, I was surprised to read of Pushkin's ancestor being Eritrean.I think, it would be most enlightening if the contributor shares his reference.Most of the authorities I am aware of refer to an Abyssinian or just African. Eritrea had yet to come into existence-for another few hundred years. ironinmohscale September8, 2006.

The correct translation of the book was "The Moor of Peter the Great." Which is basically like saying "arab". He was part African but whether he was "black" is questionable. His mother doesn't look very black, that's for sure. Ernham 01:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

In his poem "My Family Tree" Pushin clearly states that Gannibal was black. Netrat_msk (talk) 18:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Mavr = moor, but arap (with a p!) does not equal arab, but, rather, is yet another old Russian way of describing a member of the black race. Also to note, Moors weren't Arabs, just Muslims, and did actually have a significant fraction of their population of "Ethiopian" (black) appearance, as well as other ethnic groups. Thus, they were memorable to Europeans, who, in their majority, had not encountered other races, and Moor came to stand for black, despite black Moors being but one of several racial/ethnic groups among Moors. 128.195.186.193 23:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Adieu

The research (1996) of Dieudonné Gnammankou suggests that Abram Gannibal may actually have been from what is now the Sultanate of Logone-Birni in Cameroon south of Lake Chad. References: (1) Abraham Hanibal - l’aïeul noir de Pouchkine by Dieudonné Gnammankou, paperback, Paris 1996. (2) Жизнь Ганнибала – прадеда Пушкина [The Life of Hannibal, Pushkin's Great Grandfather] by Наталья Константиновна Телетова [Natalja Konstantinovna Teletova], hardback, St. Petersburg 2004. Nile60 00:45, 26 January 2007.

[edit] There needs to be more info on his African ancestry

Call it Black, African, Negro (the word Pushkin used and the one used in civil discourse at the time) whatever, this is woefully missing right now! A lot of English-speaking people coming to read this article are going to be looking for this information. I'm Russian and I am surprised there is not more detail on it. It was certainly part of his life--not only had Pushkin declared his identification with Africans on multiple occasions in life and in poetry, and started to write a bio of his ancestor, but it was obviously something that DID matter in his life. Regardless of the fact that he was 7/8 white, his 1/8 African ancestry set him apart. In the USA, one would be considered black and a slave up until 1/32 African blood, and people with 1/8 African blood were certainly regarded as Black and sold as slaves--while the situation in Russia was different, Russia was not so different as to make Pushkin's ancestry absolutely no issue. Besides, it is an interesting part of his past that should be represented.

[edit] Gratuitous commentary

The argumentative note about A S Pushkin's "racial" background is gratuitous and racist. His African great-grandfather was clearly important to Pushkin himself (he started to write a historical novel about the man), so claiming that others' attention to the same subject is somehow unwarranted is specious.

Yes, thank you. I agree.

Certainly, "ownership" of Pushkin belongs to Russia and Russian literature. (Make of that what you will.)

[edit] Influenced Henry James?

What is up with the random "Influenced" tag that says he influenced "Dostoevsky, Henry James"?!?! Why Henry James and not L. Ron Hubbard or Peter Parker? Oh year, and he was influenced BY Gogol, who was 18 when Pushkin died! What a joke . . .

Perhaps you should redo your math. Gogol was 28 when Pushkin died. Errabee 04:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and another thing: the influence on Henry James is well documented: [3] (as of the time of writing note 7) Errabee 09:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I've got to agree with the absurdity of Gogol's influence on Pushkin, though. Gogol's idolization of Pushkin is fairly well documented, but Pushkin was already well established in both verse and prose by the time Gogol started publishing anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.187.0.164 (talk) 22:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Murdered?

I would not really considered him to have murdered, for he was slain in a duel. --Anglius 21:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of famous duels

The List of famous duels featured the following entry:

1823: Mysterious duel of Aleksandr Pushkin with the poet Kondraty Ryleyev, who was also a leader of the Decembrists

I've changed this to reflect what this article says. Could someone with more knowledge of Pushkin confirm that this was the correct thing to do (and perhaps expand the entry I made at List of famous duels)? Cheers, violet/riga (t) 19:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• No it was not the fatal duel with d'Anthes occured in 1837 and is already mentioned in the list of duels. I am not sure if the duel of 1823 Pushkin-Ryleev realy took place or if it is an urban legend, but it certainly a different duel abakharev 21:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that, but if you're not sure it's correct then perhaps it would be more appropriate to remove it from that article. violet/riga (t) 00:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Totally destroyed?

The comments related to Nabokov's translation of Onegin in the current (19 December 2005) article, in my opinion, do not exemplify proper encyclopedic style. Does anyone else think a more objective revision of the following passage is needed?

"Onegin is a work of such complexity that, while only about a hundred pages long, it required translator Vladimir Nabokov four full volumes of material to fully render its meaning in English. Unfortunately, in so doing Nabokov, like all translators of Pushkin into English to date, totally destroyed the fundamental readability of Pushkin in Russian which makes him so popular, and Pushkin's verse remains largely unknown to English readers."

I have a "general" comment in this vein. When I took Russian in college our teacher said that Pushkin is considered equivalent to Shakespeare in talent. She also said that his mastery of the language is so great that, unfortunately, no one has been able to do it justice in any translation into any other language. This was a professor of literature (Mary Emery of Hofstra University) who was fluent in Russian, Serbo-Croation (Yugoslavian), French, German, English and Italian and had two Ph.D's and three Master's Degrees in various fields. Given her comment, It sounds like the above description is accurate.

RickReinckens 21:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Nabokov was fluent in Russian (he was born there, after all), English and French, and is widely acclaimed to be one of the finest writers of the 20th century, so I'm not sure why your professor should be taken as a greater authority than he is. I think the term "totally destroyed" is really loaded here; Nabokov's intent wasn't to make a poetical translation, but a literal one; he aimed to translate the meaning of each word of the Russian original as closely as possible into English, without preserving the rhyme. It's obviously not what one would experience upon reading it in Russian, but that wasn't his intent, and indeed he himself more or less admitted it was impossible to do. (See his famous "Reply To My Critics" in the book Strong Opinions.) So I wouldn't say that his translation is one of "destruction", which definitely would seem to have a negative connotation in this context, but rather a literal translation that didn't concern itself with the poem's poetry. The reference to "four full volumes" is also a bit misleading or perhaps misinformed; the actual translation only took up a small portion of the first volume; the rest was commentary. Frailgesture 05:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foot Fetish?

Fyodor Dostoevsky in his novel, "The Brothers Karamazov", repeatedly alleges that Pushkin had a foot fetish. For an example of these allegations, see Book 11, Chapter 2 of "The Brothers Karamazov."

[edit] Poland in his works

Do you think his works about Poland should be described here to make a full image or made into subarticle ? --Molobo 08:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry Probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Note: This user has added similar requests to link to biographies hosted on the same site to about 50 different articles. Although I believe that these requests were made in good faith, adding the links to all of the articles would be spamming. In addition, the biographies tend to be not very insightful and/or minimally informative, and the webpages contain Google AdSense links.

A fuller explanation of my own opinion on these links can be found here, if anyone wishes to read it.

Hbackman 23:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted as Good Article

This article has been delisted as Good Article, because not all major topics are covered. For instance, Pushkin has had a considerable influence on other writers and poets, like Mikhail Lermontov. Pushkin still exerts a considerable influence on Russians, and was voted number 2 of most influential Russians after Peter the Great, but before Lenin. Furthermore, both the biography and the literary legacy are very limited for a person on whom several books of more than 300 pages each could be written. Errabee 12:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculousness

This is silly. Pushkin is one of the most influential historical figures in the world. Can someone who is an expert on Pushkin please provide an article on the man and his works? I know the interested reader would appreciate an unbiased article of that nature.

So called Afrocentrism, or any form of racism for that matter, has no place in the Wikipedia. What I read in the Pushkin article, in its current form, seems a lot like "Pushkin is this writer-dude. And he was part black. And his great-grandkids are English nobility. So they are part black. In your face rich white English people!" Imagine if you were a student in highschool again, giving a presentation on Pushkin, the revolutionary poet and 2nd most important figure in Russia, and you go on a tangent about British nobles. I would guarantee you'd get a very bad grade. His progeny is irrelevant.

And for those readers of this commentary who are obsessed with proving British nobles have African ancestors, you are already covered. Anthropoligists and Archaeologists determined a long time ago that Africa is the cradle of human existence. There... We're all "part-black." So, take a rest from your racist banter and do something productive with your lives.Verdad 14:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Not everyone in Africa is black, mate, and no proof on the skin colour of our early hominid ancestors exists. They might as well have been neon green for all we know! As to Pushkin, it apparently mattered to him. Like another famous writer named Alexandre (Dumas), his fraction of black blood, albeit small, apparently affected him. Also, it is interesting trivia, since Russia never had racial slavery and the sole fraction of black blood in him made him quite 'exotic' for the place and day. 128.195.186.193 23:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Adieu

[edit] reference

I think some of the facts from T.J.Binyon's biographical work on Pushkin can be added to this page.

It does present the other side of Pushkin, the more controversial one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.222.241 (talk) 05:13, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Why is everyone so obsessed with this man being 1/8 black? How does that make him any more special than anyone else? Yes, he is 1/8 black, but he is 7/8 white and if he were to live today and he didn't speak much about his heritage, people see him as a white man and rightly so. I mean he looks white, his heritage is almost completely European and he was culturally Russian, the ethnicity of a white people, so it is silly for anyone, afrocentrist or not to think of him as black. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter what he was because what he doesn't interfere with the fact that he was a great guy at what he did. At the end of day, it all comes down to what you do as a person, not with what you are. -Mimi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.69.211 (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing work "chill winds still blow" (1828)

Will someone please look into this. There is no information on the web about Pushkin's poem, "chill winds still blow" but it surely exists and is not included on Pushkin's Wiki-page. Dostoevsky makes reference. 68.250.151.77 00:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Natalia (Daughter)

I've removed some text about his yougest daughter.

Natalia was a daughter of Russian novelist Alexander Pushkin and his wife Natalya Goncharova, and therefore, through her father, is a descendant of Peter the Great's African protégé, Abram Petrovich Gannibal as well as the Cossac leader Prince Petro Doroshenko. Er...yes, this has already been established in the article. Why repeat it here? Natalia was created Countess of Merenberg as she was not allowed to use her husband's titles and rank. I've simplfied this down to saying that the marriage was morganatic, with a link to the relevant article. That, and the Count of Merenberg article discuss the issue further. Moreover, Pushkin's most notable descendants are Prince Phillip husband and Consort to Queen Elizabeth II, and The Marquess of Milford Haven, presently the richest man in England. I think the poster has become confused, this is not factually correct. Prince Phillip does not descend from Pushkin. His cousin, George Mountbatten, 2nd Marquess of Milford Haven married a descendant of Pushkin, so that branch of the Mountbatten family that can claim descent, but not Prince Philip. As for the Marquess of Milford Haven being the richest man in England, in what parallel universe is that? The Milford Havens are not exactly short of money, but they hardly rank alongside Britain's billionaires. Indisciplined (talk) 13:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aleksandr vs. Alexander

Is there a reason why this page is "Alexander Pushkin" and not "Aleksandr Pushkin"? Best, Vincent Valentine 01:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)