Talk:Alexander Litvinenko/Archive 1

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Sections of the article

I changed "Career in Russian intelligence" to "Career in Russian security services" since he never worked in PGU KGB/SVR.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ovc (talk • contribs) 03:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC).

Boris Berezovsky

It is written that Alexander Litvinenko while employed by Russia was asked to arrange for Boris Berezovsky to be killed. In other places it is written that they are (were) friends in London. I find it strange that there is little written about this curious relationship. At what point did they become friends? When did they first meet? Were they already acquainted when Alexander Litvinenko was ordered to arrange for Boris Berezovsky to be killed? Has anyone documented the trajectory of this relationship? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.232.201.37 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 28 November 2006

Thallium?

The BBC 6 O'Clock news tonight was saying that some doubt was now being thrown on the identification of the poison as thallium? Angus Lepper 19:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The articles I've read have said the doubt is because it's clear there was some radioactive element involved. Some are now saying it could have been radioactive thallium. Tuviya 23:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The BBC have aired footage of a hospital doctor numerous times today, stating that the poison was "unlikely to be a heavy metal, such as thalium" and also unlikely to be radioactive. In one article it even suggested he may have poisoned himself. See http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/feeds/ap/2006/11/21/ap3194773.html "London's University College Hospital said: "Based on results we have received today and Mr. Litvinenko's clinical features, thallium poisoning is an unlikely cause of his current condition."" --87.112.76.78 00:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Nov25-Dec1 issue of The Economist says that "Doctors... downplay earlier diagnoses of thallium poisoning"(page 42)
--User24 15:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The symptoms, at least according to all the articles, point to the poisoning with radioactive thallium. The same exact symptoms were described by Nikolai Khokhlov, who was poisoned by KGB back in 1957. Since radioactive thallium quickly decays, the dosage quickly falls below toxic. However, the radiation and whatever remains after decay still wreck havoc on the body, but also make the antidote less effective.
I would disagree that this is according to "all the articles". The newer ones are tending towards ruling out the thallium hypothesis in favour of pol-210. W guice 21:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

sushi

This passge does not follow. IE where is the prior mention to the Italian jounalist. Has it been removed? He had lunch with her? If so, this needs editing...

On 1 November 2006, Litvinenko fell suddenly ill while investigating the death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. He had had lunch at Itsu, a sushi restaurant in Piccadilly. The female Italian journalist claimed to have information on the murder of Politkovskaya, 48, the outspoken journalist who was killed at her Moscow apartment in October 2006 - the Italian passed him papers on the Russian journalists fate.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Sasquatchuk (talk • contribs) 14:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC).

2nd edit: {{db-bio}}

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=Alexander+Litvinenko

This is a very big deal - to call Mr Litvinenko non-notable even without the possible poisoning is laughable, IMHO, but with the poisoning it could have very dramatic repercussions on foreign relations with Britain and Russia. This is a major news story, he is a major critic, and this is a big deal internationally. Tuviya 03:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that this page doesn't need to be deleted, then please expand it and I will remove the tag.Ardo 03:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The point of Wikipedia is to be a collaboration. Just because you don't think something has enough detail doesn't mean it's non-notable. That has nothing to do with the criteria by which you are attempting a speedy deletion. I will expand it, in due time, but I would remind that there's more to Wikipedia than deleting new content without searching for relevance - you could add to it too, especially since I gave you a list of news links (see above). I came here looking for more information and was surprised to see nothing. So I created a new page about this notable figure - that's how this is supposed to work, I thought. Something is certainly better than nothing - and in any case, it doesn't qualify for a speedy delete anyway. Tuviya 03:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course he is a notable, even famous person. We must have this article in Wikipedia. Biophys 19:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree, this story is all over the news front pages - obvious notability due to references from multiple independent reputable sources. DWaterson 22:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
You guys can stop agreeing now, it's not up for deletion any more. W guice 22:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Like Yuri Schekochikhin and Nikolai Khokhlov?

I think we should pay close attention to the fate of famous Russian journalist Yuri Schekochikhin (Юрий Щекочихин) from Novaya Gazeta who died from a poisoning with very similar symptoms a few years ago (if I remember correctly). See[1] and [2]. Like Litvineko, Yuri Schekochikhin investigated Russian apartment bombings and wrote a book about domestic KGB/FSB activities "Slaves of KGB" ("Raby GB", Russian). He was a member of Kovalev comission, together with Sergei Yushenkov who was also assassinated [3] [4].Biophys 20:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken about Georgi Markov. Markov was indeed assassinated, but he was poisoned with ricin. It was defector Nikolai Khokhlov (Хохлов) who was poisoned by tallium derivatives. See the article (Russian) where Nikolai Khokhlov described how he was poisoned in the same Novaya Gazeta [5].Biophys 20:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps accidently, the journalist who prepared the interview with Nikolay Khokhlov was Anna Politkovskaya [6]! Biophys 21:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I included some relevant information about this in articles about Anna Politkovskaya and Nikolay Khokhlov. Biophys 01:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide any proof that Yuri Schekochikhin was poisoned?Link N1 (which you provided) says he died because of an allergic reaction.Dimts 17:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

British citizen?

The lead in this article says "in October 2006 became a British citizen", but no source is provided for this claim, and BBC News say only that he is "believed to have taken British citizenship this year, although this has not been confirmed by the Home Office." Especially given that uncertainty, a firm statement of fact as in this article must be referenced. 86.136.252.196 22:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The Guardian states "The defector, who has been granted asylum and citizenship in Britain...". While Guardian can usually be classified as "reliable source", I think there is a lot of assumptions and mis-information floating about that I wouldn't put that down as a fact until more reliable sources agree.nordstar 22:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
El Tiempo say that he was arrested by Russian security services in 1999, and in 2000 he abandoned Russia with his family and set in the Uk, when he obtain his citizenzhip, but they dont say the exact date or anything specific.--ometzit<col> 03:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Since when did Britons become citizens? I thought the proud and proper term was British subjects -- has this changed? Eleuther 09:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies became either a British Citizen, British Dependent Territories Citizen or British Overseas Citizen.

The use of the term "British subject" was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other part of the Commonwealth. The category of "British subjects" now includes only those people formerly known as "British subjects without citizenship", and no other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.201.54.21 (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

Pictures of him in hospital have been released. [7]. Although copyrighted, they've been released by the family so would probably count as 'promo' photos in a way and IMHO, they would qualify under our non-reproducible requirements too. So IMHO fair use is definitely possible. However it would still be good if someone can try and contact the family and very carefully and considerately ask for these photos to be licensed under a suitable free license Nil Einne 18:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"His family gave permission for the pictures to be released to show the effects of what they believe was a deliberate poisoning. He has lost all his hair and looks far older than his 44 years." [8] EvilAlex 19:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm well aware of that as I stated. However the fact remains, the license these photos are released under is uncertain. As I've stated, they'll almost definitely qualify as fair use IMHO because they're effectively promo photos (in a way, the term promo might sound offensive in this context but they're similar in many regards) and they're also unlikely to be reproducible. However until and unless we can get a suitable license, we can only use them under fair use IMHO. That's why I urge someone to contact the family at some stage and politely and carefully try and get the images released under a suitable license. This may or may not be possible. Bear in mind the family may not be willing given our requirements which prohibit no derivatives and no commercial use restrictions. Nil Einne 13:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There are photos of him holding his book "Blowing Up Russia" everywhere. Surely they would count as promo photos, as he is advertising his books. I have a good one I could upload. --Codutalk 14:16, 22 November 2006 (GMT)
I think you should. The current picture is from AFP. Although it is said to be include under "Fair Use" the use of photos from agencies is specifically said not to be Fair Use in the examples on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use#Images
The new photo of him is one of him holding hos book. This is a much better photo I think. I hope everyone likes it, and has no problems with it. codu (t/c) 15:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The tag line of him in hospital states "...in intenstive care" wasn't this picture taken prior to him being moved back into ITU after dererioating? Panthro 00:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Retract my last statement, I have found a copy of a picture taken at distance where he is clearly in ITU, http://www.elperiodico.com/EDICION/ED061124/CAS/FOTOS/EPP_ND/CARP01/f020mh01.jpg Panthro 00:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Original source of information

It seems that much of the information on the alleged poisoning originates from Boris Berezovsky and other "friends" of Litvinenko, including Alex Goldfarb. Are there any independent sources for the poisoning or the presence of thallium?

Some interesting links:

-- Petri Krohn 19:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Alex Goldfarb and Alexei Goldfarb, co-author of Litvinenko, are probably two different persons.Biophys 18:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Lawyer? Alexander Goldfarb (author) (Alexei, Alex) is a spokesman for Boris Berezovsky [9] and the head of his "Civil Liberties Fund" (CLF). [10]
Seem to be the same. I am not sure.Biophys 16:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
No they are not the same, Alexander Goldfarb is a former member of the Knesset.
The name of the New York organization is International Foundation for Civil Liberties. See [11] for more on Goldfarb. -- Petri Krohn 03:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

radiactive?

The article states that others where killed by radioactive thalium. Is there any prof for radioactive thalium? This would be a real overkill in my view.--134.76.234.75 10:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I saw this documentary on THC about the so called "Laboratory X" and how it was linked to all these poisonings in Russia(the thalium was supposedly their idea)... but I was surprised to see no reference to it here in Wikipedia. Nor a "cateogory" that links all these people. Would that be a hoax? Overawe 13:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6167728.stm Archibald99 13:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It is said he will need bone marrow transplant even if he survives, due to the radioactive nature of tallium he was fed.
latest bbc reports have his doctors saying it probably isn't radioactive thalium but they can't yet rule anything out. they seemed to be implying it wasn't thalium at all. confusion --Mongreilf 19:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the radioactive thallium bit, as its seemed unlikely to me. I have since seen an AFP release which repeats the speculation, 'citing' an unnamed British toxicologist. As I chemist, I still feel that it is doubtful: if you wanted to kill someone by radiological means, you would not choose thallium to do it: thallium is quite capable of killing someone on its own without bothering to produce a sufficient quantity of the radioactive version (much harder to handle and to administer). It seems like there is a certain amount of disinformation going on (compare with the death of Yassir Arafat). I am just off to check the accuracy of our article(s) on thallium toxicity; give me a shout if you need a chemist in the house! Physchim62 (talk) 11:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The "unnamed British toxicologist" is being named on the BBC: John Henry (toxicologist) [12]. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 11:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Also named by CNN here. The Wikipedia pieces on thallium toxicity are short and distributed among a number of articles, but seem accurate. These two papers [13], [14] give good overviews, if a little technical. The Indian paper gives some hints as to the problems of being sure about the diagnosis. Physchim62 (talk) 12:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yury Skuratov

I changed the bit about Skuratov's sex tape. I know next to nothing about this. But from my searches, it appears the women in the sex tape were women possibly prostitutes, definitely not his wife but still seemingly of age. See here for my change To me anyway, saying he was with young girls implies that they were underage, possibly even prepubsecent children which they don't appear to have been. Bear in mind Skuratov is very likely a living person so BLP applies... N.B. One reference which may be helpful [15].] Nil Einne 14:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

BLP most definitely applies. I have shortened the passage appropriately. Physchim62 (talk) 15:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Ranks

Disscontinuity: a person can be promoted in ranks, but not in the reverse order. So he can't be first a colonel and then become a lieutenant-colonel.

Not saying that's the case here, but a military personal can be demoted in rank. -- KTC 01:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Eh? Any person can be demoted in rank in any field - civil service, military or private company - so he can. Anyway, each rank was in a different service so that may also explain it. 86.17.247.135 01:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Litvinenko cannot be ex-KGB colonel; he joined KGB in 1988 (3 years before its disbandment) and continued his service in MB-FSK-FSB. His rank was lieutenant-colonel, not colonel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ovc (talk • contribs) 03:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC).

Dead

ITN News just reported he is dead. --Tim1988 talk 23:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed by BBC and the hospital... Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 23:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
That should be in article:"The bastards got me but they won't get everybody"[16] EvilAlex 00:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean that should be in the article? I second that (thought : best last words ever) The Lilac Pilgrim 01:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes it should indeed be in the article. At the top. Chavatshimshon 06:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree. Biophys 07:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Also reported by the BBC: Speaking in Friday's Times, film-maker Andrei Nekrasov said that, before he fell unconscious for the last time, his friend had told him: "I want to survive, just to show them. The bastards got me but they won't get everybody." (Times)

Does not make sense

Following a deterioration of his condition on 20 November, Litvinenko was moved into intensive care. On 23 November, an X-ray was said to have revealed three small objects in his intestines, almost certainly due to Prussian blue, the treatment he had been given for thallium poisoning.[14] What? The three small objects were caused by Prussian blue? This paragraph makes no sense. -Rolypolyman 03:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No the three small 'objects' visible in the X-rays were the prussian blue given to treat thallium poisoning. Nil Einne 13:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Russian Assassination Law

British MEP, Gerard Batten said on BBC News 24-Nov-06 that the Russian Government had passed a law, in mid 2006, legalising assassinations of Russian and non Russian disidents, anywhere in the world, slandering or libeling the Russian Goverernment. Does anyone know about this law? Anon user 08:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

See this link [17]. Can't read Russian but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. Israel/Mossad is infamous for it's assasinations in foreign countries and the CIA to a lesser extent Nil Einne 13:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I can read Russian and I can tell you that this an anti-terrorism law. The only part that refers to acting outside Russia is Article 10 "Use of Russian Armed Forces outside Russia for prevention of terrorist activities" that says that armed forces can be used to destroy terrorist bases abroad. The decision must be approved by the upper house of Russian parliament and the president. The decree must specify the number of servicemen, ther specific tasks etc. This law does not authorise secret killings abroad. Russian secret services (and I am sure other countries are not different) definitely do kill people abroad - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Yandarbiev#Assassination but there is no LAW in Russia allowing that - that would be against international rules and laws.
So, Kremlin claimed to follow the international rules, but it does not follow these rules in practice. The Ilukhin's opinion reflects how this Law was widely interpreted by Russian public. Also see this [18]. The paper says that ..."the draft law contains a number of controversial elements. One is a clause that allows Russia to eliminate suspected international terrorist targets beyond its borders, although the country's security services would be supposed to act within the terms of international treaties and agreements signed by Moscow." This law was also interperetd by Lev Ponomarev as a step toward creating a parallel FSB government. In a wider context, see this [19].Biophys 18:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Ilykhin also said that Putin's decree about creating the National Counterterrorism Committee inflates the role of the FSB to the degree that it "makes it a state within a state and a substitute for state functions and prerogatives." [20] Biophys 18:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


This bill is a clear Antiterrorism Bill. You can find defenition of terrorism, terrorist activity and anti-terrorism operation in the paraghraph 3 of the law. --Ovc 01:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

See also this BBC article. --Zundark 16:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Text of the law does not have world "extremists" or "extremism" at all.--Ovc 18:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Investigating" Politkovskaya's death?

Any proof that Litvinenko was "investigating"? What kind of investigation could he possible have done if the murder occured in Moscow and he was outside Russia for the past 6 years? Can it really be called "investigation"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.209.1 (talk • contribs) 13:35, 24 November 2006

Well it's been said he'd been told the day he got sick who the killer was. This info was supposedly going to be released when he got well. Since he has died, we can assume this info was passed to someone and will be release in due course, if there is anything really there. However this IMHO isn't too important. He has stated he was investigating the death and unless we have reason to believe this isn't true, then there is no point speculating. Whether or whether not he had any chance of successfully investigating her death without visiting Russia is an interesting question but not one for wikipedia, unless it's something that is raised in a reliable source. However I should point out that journalists have successful uncovered things in other countries relying solely on contacts and without visiting said countries Nil Einne 13:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Boris Berezovsky has been named as one of the suspects in the Politkovskaya assassination. In theory it is thus possible to investigate the murder in London. As Litvinenko was on Berezovsky's payroll, it is unlikely this is the lead he was following.
It is likely that Politkovskaya and Litvinenko cases are related. In fact I believe that assassinations of Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Gemayel, and Hariri as well as the attempt on Viktor Yushchenko were all organized by the same people. Who dunit? Follow the money - who had the most to gain? -- Petri Krohn 01:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The story about Boris Berezovsky as the suspect appeared in the Russian media because Berezovsky knows too much about too many things. So, they want to destroy his credibility as a potential witness (he already has zero credibility for Russian public due to such propaganda campains).Biophys 03:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine Berezovsky having any "credibility".He ordered the assassinations of a few of his enemies,he supported the Chechen rebels,he always calls for the overthrow of the current goverment of Russia.Everybody knows that!Do you really think he's a nice guy?Dimts 12:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Further Recherche towards Vladimir Ruschailo (chassed security secratary)

Boris Beresowski


who founded a party with two other people, Sergej Juschenkow and Wladimir Golowljow, and who was a voter pro Putin-vote-contrahent Iwan Rybkin in 2004

had to realize, that both other party founders Sergej Juschenkow and Wladimir Golowljow were murdered, by the Kreml or by Beresowsky himself?

Boris Beresowski was a TV-Manager, so he choosed the slow public death of Alexander Litvinenko to destroy the image of Putin?

Though, Alexander Litvinenko was doing a recherche to the death aof Anna Politkovskaja.

The recherche has to find out now, if Boris Beresowski has a contamination of Polonium 210, or - which forces within russia do not want a modern Kremel with - and of course why Anna Politkovskaja was murdered by the Kremel. Too many death peaople: Alexander Litvinenko, Sergej Juschenkow and Wladimir Golowljow, and Anna Politkovskaja.

If Boris Berezovsky would die as well, Vladimir Putin would be in hard conflicts.


As Ivan Rybkin is a founder of the conservative party

and a good Friend of Boris Beresowski, both contrahents of Putin, the motives of the death of Alexander Litvinenko maybe found in the relationsships of Ivan Rybkin to the Russian federation.


Secretary of the federation is: 2001 - 2004 Wladimir Ruschailo, he has to be asked as well towards the topics, because his period ended as well with the beginning of putin.

Ivan Rybkin was the security-secretary of the russian federation and as well special-secretary for the Tschetschenien-war. He was called "Mr. Consens" so he made peace with them in a mute way - the opposite of Putin: a loud war. And this was as well the topic of Anna Politkovskaya and Alexander Litvinenko: the war against Tschetschenien, which should be strategic product of "burning the house down"-Putin, in their eyes.

So the real focus is the nowerdays work of Ivan Rybkin.

Poisoning

The impression I'm getting from the BBC etc is that the doctors that were treating him now think it unlikely thallium or radiation is the primary cause. It may be multiple agents or we just don't know. However the way it's currently written doesn't quite convey that to me. I don't have sources and I'lm lazy to track them down but hopefully someone else can add this Nil Einne 13:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I took care of it, sourcing it to the Guardian.--Wehwalt 14:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Although interestingly radiation was the cause it appears. Actually now that I recall, it wasn't just thallium but any heavy metal that they said unlikely. I believe also radiation Nil Einne 15:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Romano Prodi

The paragraph with the link on Romano Prodi beeing a KGB officier seems at least "original", and create a feeling that "everything is possible", helping to hide the true and creating further disturb in the public opinion.

The above comment will be removed in five days if it is not signed. In the meantime the link will go back in and stay in untill a consensus has been reached amongst all editors. Chavatshimshon 23:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
are you quite sure you're allowed to just remove comments like that? W guice 23:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Date of death

The date of Litvinenko's death is stated as November 23rd in the heading and the Death section and as November 24th in the Suspected thallium poisoning section. Which is it? (I believe the former is correct) DES 15:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

ITN had it last night around 11, the former is indeed correct. I removed the details from the "Suspected thallium poisoning" section anyway, as i felt they were amply covered in the following "Death" section. W guice 15:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)