Talk:Alex Sanders (Wiccan)

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Contents

[edit] Verification after major edit

There have been repeated removals of the {{verify}} tags that were recently added, and no explanation for their removal was given. Please do not remove a tag like this until you are confident you have addressed the issues of whoever added the tag. The tag was originally added by Jkelly and became two tags when I separated out the Wicca section. I separated this out because Wiccans do not consider their religion to come under the category of "Left hand path", and because "Wicca" is the most famous aspect of Sanders' life and deserves a heading of its own.

Also, don't accuse someone of vandalism if they are at all likely to be editing in good faith (which I was). Please read Wikipedia's policies regarding vandalism and "assume good faith". Fuzzypeg☻ 23:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


Fuzzypeg, calm down. Since you have yet again provided no reason as to why you've tried to reinstate tags to this article

(which had been already been justly removed following an explanation) then you just continue to disrupt the article, so dont! See Vandalism.

There is also no need for an additional seperate heading entitled "Wicca" as the subject is inherent throughout the entire article.

And by keeping it in undermines the quality and integrity of the article, which you seem intent on doing.

I would also suggest that you go read the following articles...
Viogfernos 01:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I don't find the question of whether there should be a "Wicca" heading very interesting. That said, we should not be describing Sanders' religion as "the left hand path" without attributing that description to someone. Very few of the guidelines that you've linked to above have much of anything to do with the current discussion. Article contributions must adhere to our three core content policies. I cannot emphasise enough that the only appropriate response to be asked for better referencing after making a major update to an article is to provide that referencing. The burden is not on the person requesting verifiability but upon the editor who has added the content. Your prose is really quite good, and I hope that you continue contributing to Wikipedia, but if you expect to be able to add sentences like "Some claim Sanders plagiarized some of his material, although, it must be noted, this criticism came after Sanders’ publicity was at its highest.", you need to expect requests for citations and be helpful in providing them in a collaborative spirit. Such requests are not a comment on your integrity, they are part of the requirements of editing here. Jkelly 02:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Explanation re. reinstating the tags: It is normal Wikipedia practice to keep tags like this in the article until it is fairly certain that whatever dispute or issue was raised has been dealt with; if someone removes such a tag without due process another editor will add it back in, usually with a note saying "please don't do that!". This time the editor who added it back was me. I've left a more detailed explanation of what this is about and why on your talk page.
What I did make clear above is why I believe we need the separate Wicca heading. I positioned this chronologically in the article just under "The Left Hand Path". I had two reasons for adding it. Firstly, this was an important development in Sanders' career, perhaps the most important as far as most readers are concerned, since this was when he came into contact with Wicca, the religion which made him famous, and which (arguably) he helped to make famous in return. As the article stood prior to my additions, it didn't even explain how or when he came into contact with Wicca. Secondly, without adding the heading, the information I reinstated regarding his initiation into Wicca would have chronologically fallen in the section headed "The Left Hand Path", which I believe is quite inaccurate to describe either the religion of Wicca or the influence it had upon Sanders. If I recall correctly, this would have signalled the end of Sanders' flirtation with the "left hand path".
I don't mind how the article ends up being structured, as long as it remains clear and informative. If you have a better suggestion then I'm all ears, but the version you keep reverting to doesn't seem like any improvement.
My intention is to improve the quality and integrity of the article. Fuzzypeg☻ 04:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth date

According to the page here, Sanders was born 6/6/1916, at 6am, making the birthdate given in this article 10 years out. That would mean he lived to the age of 71, not 61; he certainly looks at least in his 60s in this photo. What other confirmation can we find for either of these birthdates? Fuzzypeg☻ 15:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I've found various dates: 1929-1988 1916-1988 1929-1988 1916-1988 that last one features the following message: "I have recieved E-mail message from a lady called Carole, an old student of Alex Sanders. It reads: "Merry meet. I knew Alex Sanders very well, I studied at his School of Occult lectures in the 70s. I feel I must point out that Alex was born on 6.6.16, at 6am. So many articles about him seem to knock 10 years off of his age, please do not take offence, I am trying to put the record straight. Blessed be. Carole"." --User24 18:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

And Maxine Sanders (who you would think would know) says he was born 6/6/1926 in a house in Moon St, Birkenhead, Liverpool. From A Talk by Maxine Sanders, Children of Artemis p.4 (don't know which issue yet, I have to join their website to search back-issues). Fuzzypeg☻ 20:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Order of Alex Sanders and Derek Taylor

I have just reinstated the information about Alex's later life activities; it's not true that he "lived in seclusion until his death". There are plenty of references to Derek Taylor in connection with Sanders on the net; unfortunately I haven't yet tracked down the Hexagon archives site from which the cited geocities webpage copied this information; that site has ceased to exist, but if I could find out its old address I could possibly find it archived (wayback machine for instance). There also exists a research group on this, which is now by membership only, because of spamming: The Alex Sanders Project.

Regarding the "small number of personal students", this is information I know personally; my old coven checked someone's bona fides who claimed to have been a personal student of his and it all checked out. There is a scan of a letter from Alex to this person here, but I know this is not necessarily conclusive. I just happen to know of the "original research" that was involved, in contacting various people in England and gaining confirmation.

Despite these references being inconclusive in their own right, the material should not be removed in the first instance; rather wait until there is more time to gather other supporting references. An unsupported assertion is not immediately removed, but has {{citation needed}} added; a poorly-referenced assertion should not fare worse. Fuzzypeg☻ 01:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the following discussion from the article footnote section. It's worth noting that I know of Jean de Cabilis, and have met Sr Moonshee and Bryon, and know Cian quite well. Jean has compiled significant amounts of historical information about a couple of esoteric orders in NZ, including Alexandrian and Boucca Wicca and the Society of the Guardians (an influential hermetic order that resided in Auckland NZ for a number of years, and has now emigrated to Australia). I for one would greatly appreciate any input he cares to give to wikipedia. (Fuzzypeg☻ 00:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)):

Footnote: (To be removed after editors reading)
For Editors to read and considered before removing (basically discussion as cannot find where else to put it).
  • Birthday, according to birth data I had seen Alex Sanders was 10 years earlier than given in King of Witches (ref: Sr Moonshee birthdata from Alex) which i appreciate this cannot be verified it is interesting nevertheless.
  • Ordine Della Luna should be included in about Alex Sanders life. During the late 1960's Alex Sanders of Eastbourne (the founder of Alexandrian Wicca) received charter from Prince Palaeologus (a direct ascendent of the original royal family) and was knighted as the Grand Prior of the Ordine Della Luna for England and Wales. Alex Sanders especial work within his charter of the Ordine Della Luna.
As far as i am aware two organisations continue ODL work: 1. One is Boucca Wicca in New Zealand [(Cian head of Boucca Wicca who was an initiate of Soror Moonshee (ODL) & Bryon Stevens (from the Simon Goodman line)] and 2. secondly the Ordrine Scatere Stellae.
Both organisations Boucca Wicca and Ordrine Scatere Stellae have independent and cross-over connections to Alex Sanders Ordine Della Luna.
This information should be presented in a manner that is acceptable to the editors of this page. - Jean de Cabalis (nb: I (Jean de Cabalis) have a collection of Sr Moonshee ODL material and some unpublished works by Alex Sanders which i am slowly scanning for the Alexandrian wiccan community to share without restriction. Have managed to contact Murray Langham who studied with Alex Sanders back in the 70's he has a small collection of unpublished work by Alex Sanders, i have been trying (though unsuccessfully) to get hold of some these materials for the Alexandrian Wiccan community. I apologise for placing here and hope the editors can forgive me for my intrusion - Jean —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.89.51.124 (talk • contribs).

[edit] NPOV?

On casually skimming this article I am seeing a lot of weasel terms and unverified statements about Sanders, which paint a picture of him that is completely different from what I came up with when I was researching the first version of the article. I want to check and see whether this is just me overreacting to having my work completely erased/replaced or whether other editors share my opinion that the current version of the article specifically aims at presenting a negative view of Sanders. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 17:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can look up above, or browse the history of the article. There was some excitement here not too long ago. , perhaps by reverting back to your version and incorporating any good material that was added since. Jkelly 23:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Alex Sanders was a publicity stunt artist in his younger days, and did and said some fairly shocking things. I think most of what User:Viogfernos added here is actually true (or at least was claimed to be true by Alex), although I wonder whether there's other information we could add to balance out all the really lurid elements... We could do with some references, and I don't actually own a copy of King of the Witches to work from, but I'm a member of a couple of research forums focussing on Alex's life, and I'll be gradually grabbing what I can from them. Fuzzypeg☻ 01:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I defer to your more informed opinion, then. Thanks for filling me in! - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 18:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)