Talk:Alessandro Cagliostro
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[edit] Comment 1
I found the day of his death here (in German)
[edit] Comment 2
Following some recent edits, this article has become a paradigm example of how not to handle NPOV. It reads as if someone had gone through and inserted "Some say..." in front of every single claim. This makes a mockery of encyclopedic writing; who says, and how credible are their claims? Is there even any reason to question these claims, or do they merely sound implausible to one or another editor? - Mustafaa 03:30, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I've given the entire article an overhaul, which should fix a number of these problems. I've nonetheless had to fall back to saying 'some accounts hold...' in front of some parts, since the whole history of the man is shrouded in rumour, propaganda and mysticism. --Spudtater 19:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Lewis Spence's version
My main acquaintance until now with a detailed account is in Lewis Spence's Encyclopedia of the Occult, republished by Dover; over a hundred years old by now and perhaps not reliable. I'm wondering if anyone has read it? I'll have to study and compare it and the writeup overleaf for any significant differences, but I'm wondering if it's worth the bother. What's interesting in Spence is that he credits the fortune generated by Cagliostro's swindling as providing the foundation for his patronage of maternity hospitals and orphanages across Europe, i.e. hospitals for the poor, perhaps the foundation, one would think, of the tradition that led to Shrine Hospitals; the con-man as philanthropist in an age when the nobility had no concern at all for anyone lesser than themselves. Spence's account also details his initiation into the Egyptian Rite by the Count St. Germain; and other juicy tidbits.Skookum1 21:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Johann Wolfgang Goethe's impact
see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Gro%C3%9F-Cophta - I added a reference in the section dealing with Cagliostro's life being a role model for several works of fiction. Goethe wrote the piece "Der Groß-Cophta" in 1791 (see link). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.171.35.180 (talk) 10:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Theveneau de Morande
Obviously Theveneau knew the Palermo dossier, but could not produce it, or a copy of it, in court. So, Cagliostro got away with it, in the oldest politician's manner of "stout denial".... Kraxler 20:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citations needed
There are any number of statements in this article that need to have citations to reliable secondary sources to back them up. Especially the claims that Cagliostro was a Freemason. Also, please note that I have removed one of the references... it was a personal web page, which is not considered reliable under WP:RS. I am not that happy with the other references on that score... but they are not as clear cut so I have left them in for now. Blueboar 18:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- OK, after several days there has been no response to my requests for citations, so I have removed the info on Freemasonry that I found controvercial without anything to back them up. Please add this info back if you locate reliable sources. I will also say that there is a lot more I could cut on for the same reason... the article really is lacking in citations to reliable sources. Please look for them. Blueboar 01:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
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- What'choo talkin' about, Willis?! It looks like this dude was a Mason:
- http://www.answers.com/topic/alessandro-cagliostro
- "As the Grand Copt of the order of Egyptian Masonry he organized many lodges. His reputation was amazing, particularly at the court of French king Louis XVI. Implicated in the Affair of the Diamond Necklace, he was imprisoned, acquitted, and banished..." (Columbia Encyclopedia)
- "During his second visit to London Cagliostro was initiated into Freemasonry and conceived his great idea of employing that system for his own gain. He incessantly visited the various London lodges and ingratiated himself with their principals and officials. At this time he supposedly picked up a manuscript at an obscure London bookstall that is said to have belonged to a certain George Gaston. This document dealt with the mysteries of Egyptian Masonry and abounded in magical and mystical references. It was from this, that Cagliostro allegedly gathered his occult inspirations... Cagliostro and his wife succeeded in establishing several Masonic lodges according to the rite of what he called Egyptian Freemasonry. Persons of high rank flocked around the couple, and it is even said that he plotted for the sovereignty of the grand duchy. It is also alleged that he collected a very large treasure of presents and money and set out for St. Petersburg, where he established himself as a physician....the numerous gifts that were showered upon him by the powerful and wealthy for the purpose of furthering his Masonic schemes. Although he lived in considerable magnificence, Cagliostro by no means led a life of abandoned luxury, for there is evidence that he gave away vast sums to the poor and needy, attended the sick, and played the part of healer and reformer... He informed his daughters that the much abused magical art was the secret of doing good to humanity... Masonry was of course anathema to the Roman church; and upon attempting to found a lodge in the Eternal City itself, he was arrested on September 27, 1789, by order of the Holy Inquisition and imprisoned in the castle of Saint Angelo...Cagliostro's manuscript volume entitled "Egyptian Freemasonry" fell with his other papers into the hands of the Inquisition and was solemnly condemned by it as subversive to the interests of Christianity. It was publicly burned; but oddly enough the Inquisition set apart one of its brethren to concoct some kind of life of Cagliostro, which did include particulars concerning his Masonic methods." (Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia)
- Fartbucket (talk) 15:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Lupin III
Concerning the 'In Fiction' section. There is a reference to the Lupin III movie titled The Castle of Cagliostro, which states: 'it holds no relation to the historical figure.' This is not entirely true. There are elements in the story that seem to be based on the life of the Count. First is that the character Clarisse (who is to be a young bride to the count) is imprisoned in a tower whose only entrance is a trap door. This parallels the fortress of San Leo where the count was imprisoned. Also, the Count in the movie is an expert forger, as was the Count of Cagliostro.
So in light of this i am proposing that this reference be changed to read as follows:
In the Lupin III movie titled The Castle of Cagliostro, the villain of the story is based upon the historical figure the Count, an expert forger.
- I too believe there to be a relationship between Cagliostro and the Count, but most aspects were actually taken from Leblanc's two books involving the Countess of Cagliostro. In the book, Clarisse is the heroine and she marries Lupin.
- It would perhaps be better to write that "The Castle of Cagliostro contains several references to Cagliostro—such as it's setting in a medieval town inspired in Italy or the fact the Count, like the real Cagliostro, was a forger—but also to other works of fiction related to Cagliostro, namely The Countess Cagliostro and its sequel The Revenge of Cagliostro, both by Maurice Leblanc, creator of the famous Arsène Lupin character." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishikawa Minoru (talk • contribs) 02:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Napoleon Investigation?
I've been doing a lot of Napoleon research for a project of mine in recent weeks and came here though a series of searches. The article mentions that Napoleon held an investigation into Cagliostro's death and that it was by such the rest of Europe accepted his demise. I haven't found any collaborating reference to this claim, or any connection to Napoleon directly to Cagliostro in life or death. Could someone please find some source to cite in this matter? Joeteller (talk) 21:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)Joeteller
[edit] Jewish origins
I noticed that my edit on Cagliostro being of Jewish ancestry was deleted.Why?The Balsamo family was Jewish.Giuseppe had extensive knowledge of the Jewish Cabbalah.The Best of Sicily magazine also states that Giuseppe Balsamo was born on 2 June 1743 in Palermo's Albergheria,formerly the old Jewish Quarter.jeanne (talk) 08:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted your edits because they were unsourced. Please chek WP:RS and WP:CITE. After I read the source you mentioned, I'm even more sure of what I did. The source says he was born in what was the Jewish quarter, not that he was born to a Jewish family. His knowledge of Jewish Cabbalah also doesn't prove that he was born to a Jewish family. Many people have had a profound knowledge of Jewish Cabbalah without being jewish. If you want to mention that he was born in the Jewish quarter citing that source, it is fine by me. But I will dispute any other interpretation from that source as it may constitute an original research from your part.--Legion fi (talk) 05:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I must point out that in the middle ages, Jews comprised 8-10% of the Sicilian population; in many towns here in Sicily, one can see the narrow streets and alleys where they resided.jeanne (talk) 06:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
