Talk:Aleppo

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Syria Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Syria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
This article is within the scope of the Arab world WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Aleppo article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Comments

For a picture, try http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/syria/aleppo/maps/olfert_dapper_1677_aleppo_b.jpg which is a scan of a public-domain image (but the website claims copyright; copyright law does not seem to give them any rights since there is no expressive content)

Aleppo's Jewish population has moved abroad voluntarily? I find this line to be more than a little suspicious, given the history of Jewish persecution in Arab countries immediatly following the creation of the state of Israel. Could someone more knowledgeable than I look into the accuracy of this statement?

As mentioned in the article, the Jewish minority has moved voluntarily. and only 25 Jews are still living in Damascus.

Yeah, the Jewish community moved abroad voluntarily, allright, despite the best efforts of the Syrian government to prevent it. Some were even killed trying to sneak over the border to Turkey. As to why Jews would risk their lives to leave, a small part of the story is found here.

Here is just a taste of why the Jews left Aleppo:

In December 1947 anti-Jewish riots climaxed in a vicious pogrom; Syrian mobs poured into the mellah of Aleppo, burnt down most of the synagogues, and destroyed 150 Jewish homes, five Jewish schools, fifty shops and offices, an orphanage, and a youth club. Holy scrolls, including a priceless ancient manuscript of the Old Testament, were burned, while the firemen stood by and police "actively helped the attackers."[244] In the aftermath, the Syrian president asserted to a visiting Jewish delegation that "Incidents of this sort occur even in advanced countries . . . . "[245] and the Minister of Finance rejected the request for a loan to repair one of the synagogues so that the Jews could continue to worship. [246]

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/arabjew.html

This entry will be watched for any attempts to whitewash the events leading to the Jewish departure.


Hahahahahahhahahah fresh milk? fresh milk is ﺤﻠﻳﺐ I still think it should stay though


The Unti-Jewish incidents mentioned above were later proven to be carried out by the Israelis Inteligence using "Terror" as a Tactic to encourage the Syrian Jewish community to Immigrate to Israel, however this Tactics did not work as it was planned for, and the Syrian Jews who decided to leave prefered countries other than the newly founded "Israel". Most of them left to the United states of America, Belgium, and other European Countries, this why it is no likely to find Syrian Jews in the State of Israel.

Before leaving their country of Syria, Jews had the time to arrange their Financials, transfer their Businesses, or reaching Settelments with their Arabic Musllim and Christian Partners. Jews in Syria enjoyed an unparalled freedome of Religion practice, Holidays, and Social Activities. I know these facts because I am a Syrian Jewish my self and I lived in Syria during that period of time. And to be honest I miss Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.61.100 (talk) 00:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

What utter nonsense. You're about as Jewish as I am Bhutanese. When did you last celebrate the Feast of Gedalia?

[edit] Section

Deleted section. If someone can make it encyclopedic, then they should fix it. ςפקιДИτς ☺ ☻ 03:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Can't we use more than one Infobox at the same time? Because it's a city before a world heritage site. Asabbagh 01:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of name

There appears to be a folk-etymology in the 1st paragraph, and serious discussion in the 3rd. I suggest removing the fol-etymology. Comments? Jd2718 21:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest keeping both, but merging them in one of those two paragraphs. Also, the 'serious' discussion could be placed first or emphasized, but I am opposed to removing the 'folk-etymology', as it still is proper to include it here. Asabbagh 22:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't the name refer to the Jewish presence? Halab = haLevi and its variants. Don't forget, Queen Noor of Jordan's birth surname was Halaby and her father was Syrian in ancestry. Of course, other religions have the name too or variants thereof, as it is not uncommon there for that to happen.JBDay (talk) 03:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish population

An anonymous user is reverting parts of the population section. Please stop, this is an encyclopedia, not a portal to push your POVs through. Since this is a controversial subject, there have to be both POVs. Trying to remove one POV and keeping the other is not assuming good faith and introduces bias. Also, when you add controversial information please cite your sources and avoid original research; it is also important to say that not every published source can be considered reliable. In such cases, a neutral, third-party, reliable source should be cited and not a pro-Arab or pro-Israeli source. In this articles, both POVs will have to be kept to avoid bias and ensure the neutrality of the article. Please avoid edit-warring, thank you. —Anas talk? 11:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That part of the section links to an article that details the migration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel and other parts of the world. That is all well and good. The text of the link is very euphemistic, (i.e. "pressures"), but that itself is okay. It links to the facts. But to add a sentence saying "oh, by the way, some people think that there was no violence against Jews happened in Aleppo and the government protected the Jews" is beyond being POV. It is presenting a POV consisting of a sweeping factual claim that happens to be false. And, if it has any place in Wikipedia, this POV should be discussed in the Jewish exodus article. Ocschwar 15:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I see. Come to think of it, the whole tone of that part seems not too encyclopedic. This section needs citing and a rewrite. I will hopefully find time to discuss the issue in the parent article. For now, please refrain from adding unencyclopedic content, like your recent edit. Everything can be done in a civil manner. :-) Regards, Anas talk? 16:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I readded that opinion. How can it not be included, if the first POV is in this article? It isn't mentioned in a POV tone either, it just says that some insist on this view, and that is entirely true (that some people have this view). You can call it a "sweeping factual claim", just as many others (more than you think) will call the first POV a "sweeping factual claim". We cannot give undue weight to one point of view, and at least opinions held by a wide group of people should be mentioned. Asabbagh 08:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
No doubt about that, it should be there, but the whole section needs a rewrite and references to make it at least sound more encyclopedic. I only removed it earlier for that reason. —Anas talk? 12:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
You two really amaze me. While it is true that there are people who think the 1947 Aleppo pogrom against the Jewish quarter never happened, there are also people who think that the earth is flat. This other point of view, that the Jewish community was unharmed, requires believing that the massacre never happened, and that Judy Feld Carr's decades long efforts to rescue the Jews of Syria was prompted by nothing at all. if you're going to claim it never happened, I challenge you to cite a source for that claim. Meanwhile, there is plenty of scholarship published on Syria's anti-Jewish repression, both on the part of mobs and on the part of the government. This "other poing of view", if you're going to promote it, go promote it in the Jewish exodus article.Ocschwar 15:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I've added another link to a source about the savage repression that Syria's government and population wrought upon the Jewish community. Each time you add a paragraph denying this happened, I'll add yet another link. Yes, there are people who think none of this happened, but all that shows is the extent of ignorance and censorship among Syrians.Ocschwar 15:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That you can find more links to sources does not necessarily mean that the information is correct. By including that paragraph, one is not taking sides, for the paragraph itself states that the opinion is only held by some. You might think that it is ignorance and censorship, but your personal opinion does not belong in the article, and it is not up to you to decide whether or not their opinion comes out of ignorance or otherwise. Furthermore, the link you added was to meforum.org, self-defined as: "The Middle East Forum, a think tank, works to define and promote American interests in the Middle East." Hardly an unbiased source. I wasn't there at the time, and I doubt that you were. The views presented here have to be of an objective nature. In the interest of avoiding an edit war, I will not revert immediately. Asabbagh 00:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty more sources about the massacre of 1947. You, however, can find nothing to indicate it didn't happen, besides the fact that a lot of poeple don't know about it. Yes, I am indeed making a point here. Ocschwar 15:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.61.15.104 (talk) 14:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

It is evident that you're only trying to make a point and POV-pushers are not welcome in Wikipedia. I'm not in the mood for a conflict, so I just nominated the article to be checked for neutrality from a third party. —Anas talk? 01:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources regarding anti-Jewish violence in Aleppo: The Ottoman Empire, which encompassed what is today Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and other territories, fell early in the 20 th Century. The region was divided into areas controlled by France and Great Britain. Palestine was under British Mandate. Syria was under French control. The Republic of Turkey was established in 1923. Syria gained its independence from France in 1946. Attacks against Jews, who remained in the Syria after World War I, increased. Pogroms in 1947 left Jewish shops and synagogues destroyed. Thousands of Jews left the country for America and Palestine.

When partition was declared in 1947, Arab mobs in Aleppo devastated the 2,500-year-old Jewish community. Scores of Jews were killed and more than 200 homes, shops and synagogues were destroyed. Thousands of Jews illegally fled Syria to go to Israel.1

Shortly after, the Syrian government intensified its persecution of the Jewish population. Freedom of movement was severely restricted. Jews who attempted to flee faced either the death penalty or imprisonment at hard labor. Jews were not allowed to work for the government or banks, could not acquire telephones or driver's licenses, and were barred from buying property. Jewish bank accounts were frozen. An airport road was paved over the Jewish cemetery in Damascus; Jewish schools were closed and handed over to Muslims.]

Ocschwar 15:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC) Ocschwar 15:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Ocschwar (Boker Tov!), I removed the following part:

including most notoriously the 1947 massacre, in which 75 Jews were murdered [1].

The reason is that this is a population section. Must be short, but include all communiti9es, even those who left but left a mark on the citi's history. Keeping in mind that I was the author of the very first section on Aleppo's Jewish community (more than a year ago), and that people with more time and better English than me have expanded it and made it more readable, I don't believe it would be fair to enter such details like this 1947 massacre: sadly, many massacres took place, also against ohter minorities, we can not single out one: The other problem is that the figure of 75 killed is mentioned only in a few Israli or Jewish web-sites: frankly speaking, accepting something as www.meforum.org as a reference would be like accepting www.kkk.org as a fair reference on the situation of black slaves in the South before 1865: totally biased website. Whoever wants to read about massacres in 1947-48 agains Arab Jews, need just to click on a link in the same Aleppo Population page to the 1948 Exodus from Arab Countries page. 2 June 2007

I don't object to the omission. I simply want the link to the Jewish expodus article not to be accompanied by any attempt at whitewashing, which is what several versions of the article had this spring. Ocschwar

[edit] population of Aleppo

The population of the Aleppo governate is around the 4 million mark, according to an unofficial report from Aleppo city council. I'm trying to get an official number from somebody here in Aleppo. the 1.9 million for Aleppo city seems way off too. I'll get back with a correction as soon as I have anything solid and confirmed. The article in Arabic about Aleppo states that the population is 4 million, http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D9%84%D8%A8 But doesn't say whether that's for the entire governate or just the city.

so does this one Aleppo_Governorate
neither state any official source for their numbers. I haven't been able to find any official census information yet.

Haxxor23 12:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Try CBS. —Anas talk? 15:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at that site thanks...although its badly designed and has script bugs. I looked at the Aleppo page and it states 4035127 as the total population for the governate, which includes an awful lot of towns and villages, no mention of the actual population of the city itsef. I'll keep looking around....Haxxor23 20:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sadly true. Although I doubt they'll ever reply to you, but try contacting them via e-mail. Their feedback system is down. :-/ —Anas talk? 11:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures are all free license now

All pictures in this article have now been checked to insure that they are free license and do not have any copyright restrictions. Please ensure that any pictures you add or edit in the future, conform to some form of free license agreement, thanks.

Haxxor23 14:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks a lot. —Anas talk? 15:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Neutrality of Section Population

This section has been tagged for months now, and nothing apparently happened since then. It seems unbalanced – half of it is dedicated to a single community while the others are mentioned in a few words - and it is still missing citations. We should find a more neutral version in order to eventually remove the tag.TerreOcre 01:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List-makers create historical statistics

The following is merely the result of someone compiling a "list of the deadliest earthquakes" in which this one is number four, without any statistics to go on. The contemporaneous population of Aleppo itself is open to question:

On August 9, 1138, a deadly earthquake ravaged the city and the surrounding area. Although estimates from this time are very unreliable, it is believed that 230,000 people died, making it the fourth deadliest earthquake in recorded history.

A house of cards. --Wetman 07:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to split "Halab" off the main article.

I would like to create a separate article for ancient Halab (before the Greek conquest), to allow more depth for this time period. Would there be any objections to this? Categorystuff (talk) 23:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)