Talk:Alcohol rub

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i added a bit about how i use hand sanitizer gel because i believe it's informative and educational and may inspire some to learn a new form af art using flammable mediums. i won't be offended if someone wants to delete this but i may work on creating a separate article. and yes i'm drunk. Amirman 07:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] ha ha funny article ending

finally some comedy on wikipedia.


There are rumors that use of the gel over a period of time will cause the gel to lose its effect as bacteria becomes resistant. This, however, is only a rumor. The alcohol content is too great for bacteria and microorganisms to become resistant in less than about 15 to 20 years.

Contradicts itself Villainone 05:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


There are rumors that use of the gel over a period of time will cause the gel to lose its effect as bacteria becomes resistant. This, however, is only a rumor. The alcohol content is too great for bacteria and microorganisms to become resistant in less than about 15 to 20 years.

This quote is equivilant to saying that bacteria might become immune to boiling--it just won't happen. Alcohol creates an osmotic effect and causes bacteria to lose a good amount of the water inside of them, thus killing them. 74.129.238.240 22:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol rubs

I've redirected here the advertisement-masquerading-as-an-article Alcohol rubs. However, it might still be worth saying a word about that if anyone cares. Pascal.Tesson 21:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Pascal Tesson:

We are very disappointed in the deletion of the article on alcohol rubs from Wikipedia. We did not write the alcohol rubs article as an “advertisement-masquerading-as-an-article”. The only “advertisement” was a picture of Germ Out. The alcohol gel article has a picture of Purell so we assumed the inclusion of a picture of Germ Out was permissible. We wrote the alcohol rubs article using the same format as the alcohol gel article. We assumed the articles in Wikipedia are intended to inform. Which one of the following articles has the most information?

An alcohol gel, also known as a hand sanitizer, is a gel used by people as an alternative to hand washing with soap and water. Isopropanol and/or ethanol are the most commonly used alcohols. When hands are not visibly dirty, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention considers alcohol hand sanitizers as an acceptable alternative to soap and water for hand hygiene.[1]

Alcohol concentration must be above 60% for alcohol gel to be effective in killing microbes. Researchers at East Tennessee State University recently found that products with alcohol concentrations as low as 40% are available in American stores.

OR

Alcohol rubs, also known as hand sanitizers or healthcare personnel hand washes, are gel, foam, or liquid solutions used by people and healthcare professionals as a supplement or alternative to hand washing with soap and water. The germ killer in alcohol rubs may be isopropanol, ethanol, or (in Europe) propanol. If hands are not dirty or soiled, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends alcohol rubs as an acceptable alternative to hand washing with soap and water to kill germs on your hands. The optimum alcohol concentration to kill germs is 70 to 95 %. Alcohol gels containing 62% alcohol are less effective germ killers than alcohol rubs containing at least 70% alcohol. Alcohol rubs containing two different germ killers (i.e. alcohol and benzalkonium chloride) are twice as effective as alcohol rubs containing only alcohol alone. Alcohol rubs must contain a good moisturizer to keep your hands from drying out. Alcohol rubs kill many different kinds of bacteria, including antibiotic resistant bacteria and TB bacteria. Alcohol rubs inactivate (kill) many different kinds of viruses, including the flu virus and the common cold virus. Alcohol rubs also kill fungus.

Sources

1. http: www.learnwell.org//handhygiene.htm 2. Jones R.D. Bacterial resistance and topical antimicrobial wash products. Am. J. Infect. 1999 Aug: 27(4):351-63. 3. Barry A.L., Fuchs, P.C., Brown, S.D. Lack of Effect of Antibiotic Resistance on Susceptibility of Microorganisms to Chlorhexidine gluconate and Povidone iodine. Eur. J. Clin. Microbiol. Inf. Dis. 1999, 18: 920-921. 4. Hibbard, J.S. Analyses Comparing the Antimicrobial Activity and Safety of Current Antiseptic Agents. J. Infusion Nursing, 2005, 28: No. 3 194-207. 5. Pietsch, H. Hand Antiseptics: Rubs Versus Scrubs, Alcoholic Solutions Versus Alcoholic Gels. J. Hospital Infection 2001, (200) 48: Suppl A, S33-S36. 6. Kramer, A., Rudolpf, P., Kamph, G., and Pittet, D, Limited Efficacy of Alcohol-based Hand Gels. The Lancet, 2002, 359: April 27 1489-1490.

Please read the references given in both articles to verify the information given in both articles. If you do not like the picture of Germ Out in the alcohol rubs article, remove it. But in all fairness you should also remove the picture of Purell in the alcohol gel article.

Please reconsider your decision to delete the alcohol rubs article. It contains excellent information and outstanding references. If you do not want to redirect hand sanitizer to alcohol rub please consider redirecting hand sanitizer to neither or both alcohol rubs and alcohol gel.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

John S. Hibbard Ph.D., Consultant in Microbiology and Clinical Research, www.jacompaniesllc.com

  • The alcohol rubs article was written to include all alcohol containing hand sanitizers, gels, foams and liquids. That is why the plural was used. If the alcohol rubs article is "undeleted" it could be change to singular if appropriate.

John S. Hibbard, Ph.D., Consultant in Microbiology and Clinical Research, www.jacompaniesllc.com

  • I believe the statements concerning the efficacy of alcohol rubs are a little misleading. While it is true that alcohol rubs are not effective against the bacterial endospores of Clostridium difficile and Bacillus anthracis alcohol rubs will kill the vegetative form (mutiplying form) of both bacteria. However, it is true that the endospore form of the Anthrax bacillus was used in the terrorist attacks and alcohol rub wil not be effective against this form of Anthrax. All bacterial endospores are very resistant to most antiseptics and antibiotics. It takes a germacide or steam heat under pressure to kill a bacterial endospore.
  • Please consider using as many of the references in original alcohol rubs article as possible in your new alcohol rub article. Particularly the www.learnwell.org//handhygiene.htm reference. It is an excellent reference from the CDC on hand hygiene.

John S. Hibbard, Ph.D., Consultant in Microbiology and Clinical Research, www.jacompaniesllc.com

[edit] Contradiction

Article now has: "Alcohol gels containing 62 v/v % alcohol are less effective germ killers than alcohol rubs containing at least 70 wt/wt % alcohol."

Yet the reference cited has: "Alcohol solutions containing 60%--95% alcohol are most effective, and higher concentrations are less potent because proteins are not denatured easily in the absence of water."

I don't see that the reference supports the assertion in the article. — Zaui (talk) 07:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Contridiction

It is a well known fact that the optimum concentration for alcohol efficacy is 70 to 80 %. The higher the concentration of alcohol the greater the effectiveness (up to approximately 95%). The problem with higher concentrations of alcohol is the drying effect on skin. It is a delicate balance between higher alcohol concentrations and the drying effect on skin. Basic microbiology textbooks state the optimum concentration for alcohol efficacy is around 70%. You may have misunderstood the statement in the reference. Higher concentrations of alcohol above 95% are less potent because proteins are not denatured easily in the absence of water. The problem with using 62 % alcohol is dilution. If a 62% concentration of alcohol is used, any small dilution might result in a loss of effectiveness. There is very little margin for error. There are two references that deal with the effectiveness of alcohol gels. They were in my original article. They are:

5. Pietsch, H. Hand Antiseptics: Rubs Versus Scrubs, Alcoholic Solutions Versus Alcoholic Gels. J. Hospital Infection 2001, (200) 48: Suppl A, S33-S36.

6. Kramer, A., Rudolpf, P., Kamph, G., and Pittet, D, Limited Efficacy of Alcohol-based Hand Gels. The Lancet, 2002, 359: April 27 1489-1490.

If you want us to add these references to the article, we will be happy to do it. Thank you for your quick review. We appreciate your help in making alcohol rub an excellent article.JSHibbard (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2007

Yep, I mistook "higher concentrations" to mean higher concentrations within the stated range. — Zaui (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New References

We have taken the liberty of adding the two references above back into the article. They are very important. Please review the references. Thank you. JSHibbard (talk) 14:34, 30 April 2007

[edit] New Sentence

Please note that I have added the following sentence and reference to this article. "Hand sanitizers containing alcohol are more effective germ killers than soaps or antimicrobial soaps and alcohol rubs do not dry out hands as much as soaps.[1]"

--JSHibbard 16:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which is "better": Ethyl v.s. Isopropyl

Is there any evidence of either the former or latter being better for hand sanitizing? I'd like to know which to look out for, or if I should care at all. It seems that Ethyl is the least expensive to make...

Another question is which is preferred when it comes to use for cleaning electronics (not which hand-sanitizer, but rather which alcohol type). Thanks. 207.12.38.25 10:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the reference given in the article on alcohol rubs, the order for alcohol effectiveness is propanol is better than isopropanol which is better than ethanol. I do not know which alcohol is better for cleaning electronics--JSHibbard 16:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Alcohol Gel Picture

I have removed the alcohol gel picture. If we have a picture of an alcohol gel, then we must also have pictures of alcohol foams and alcohol liquids since they are all alcohol rubs.--JSHibbard 00:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have re-instated the picture. We do not have to have the other forms. One picture is better than none at all.
Seraphim Whipp 15:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the alcohol gel picture again. If we have a picture of an alcohol gel, then we must also have pictures of alcohol foams and alcohol liquids since they are all alcohol rubs. By having one picture of an alcohol gel you are implying an alcohol gel is better than other formulas of alcohol rubs which is not true (see references in the alcohol rub article). Either have pictures of all rubs or no pictures at all. In addition, showing a picture of your alcohol gel is advertising which is not allowed on Wikipedia.--JSHibbard 23:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
And I have put it back in. You are being ridiculous. If Wikipedia was run on the principles you are advocating nothing would ever get added, because it doesn't yet include everything. No-one is implying anything, because Wikipedia is not a product comparison site. If you think other pictures of other types are required then why don't you contribute them? And it isn't advertising. I've looked at the picture carefully and I can't see any obvious brand name. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(Reply to JSHibbard which I oringinally made at my talk page) That is simply not true. When I took that photograph I made absolutely sure that no logo can be seen, only the formula inside the bottle. Also having one picture of alcohol does not imply anything. It just means that at wikipedia we only have one picture available. If we had a picture of a double choclate muffin on the muffin page but not a blueberry muffin, does that imply, we at wikipedia believe that double chocolate muffins are the best? No, of course not. It is your opinion that we should have other pictures.
I had wrote :"As a compromise, the caption beneath the picture can be changed to say "One type of alcohol rub". I feel this is a suitable compromise. What do you think?", but since consensus sways for keeping the picture as it is then I'm not sure whether or not that compromise is needed. I'll leave it open; I don't mind either way :).
Seraphim Whipp 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
And I have removed it again. Who is paying you to keep adding the image? Is this a hobby? The logo is not the problem. You do not need a logo to recognize your bottle of alcohol gel. That is advertising. The article is a generic description of ALL alcohol rubs not one alcohol gel product. Please do not add the image back to this article or we will need to resolve the dispute in arbitration. Thank you.--JSHibbard 01:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Please keep your incivil comments to yourself. I care not whether there are labels on the bottle or not; it was purely to confirm it was a bottle of alcohol gel. I took the picture on a rainy day to improve the article, since I had a bottle lying around. I have taken a new photograph that has no labels on. If you choose to remove it, then we shall need arbritration. I'm not sure I could remain civil in a further conversation.
Seraphim Whipp 09:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, are you aware of wikipedia's conflict of interest guideline? I'd say that it is not in this article's best interst if you continue to edit it.
Seraphim Whipp 22:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

(De-indent)For your information the alcohol rub article was edited by someone else, therefore there was no conflict of interest. Please read the Talk Alcohol Rub page closely. I believe it is in Wikipedia's best interest that I continue to edit this article since I am very qualified to do so. What are your qualifications for editing the article on alcohol gels? Please explain why you keep adding an image of alcohol gels. If you want to add an image of alcohol gel, add images of alcohol foams and liquids too. Then everyone will be happy. By all means let's take this to arbitration. I am very tired of your insistance that only a picture of alcohol gel appears in an article on alcohol rubs, which includes alcohol foams and alcohol liquids. Are you not aware of the other formulations of alcohol rubs?--75.211.98.246 21:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)--JSHibbard 21:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason I believe it not to be in this article's interests that you continue to edit it, is that the possibility for neutral editing on your part, is not possible. It is due to your COI that you are insisting other formulations must be shown.
Please note that your career is of no relevance to wikipedia. This is the encylopedia that anyone can edit. Elitist attitudes are not conducive to a collaborative environment. Also please note that I will not continue to tolerate your rudeness; I am a volunteer at wikipedia, just as you are.
I have only one bottle of alcohol gel to photograph, as that is what I use. At wikipedia any good faith contribution is welcome, and that is what my contribution is. Consensus has gone against your opinion that other alcohol formulations must be shown. The caption I used fully illustrated that I am aware that other formulations exist, and to the audience that other formulations exist. It is perfectly acceptable.
I welcome any action you take to resolving this issue.
Seraphim Whipp 22:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Career is relevent. Please note Wikipedia rules. According to Wikipedia guidelines, credentials do earn rights. Wikipedia guidlines state that "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher (scholarly or non-scholarly) in a relevant field. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications." The rule is not elitist. To what consensus are you refering. You must take the action since you insist on adding the image.--JSHibbard 00:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Career has no relevance in whether your opinion is better than mine. You believe your opinion holds more weight than mine, because of your career; that is elitism. The guideline you quoted is not relevant here. The consensus I am referring to would be Escape Orbit and myself.
Seraphim Whipp 09:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Note. If you want to take action, then you should be the one to set it up. Thank-you.
Seraphim Whipp 09:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

(un-indent) FWIW, I don't see a problem with including a photo of one of the materials discussed, even if we don't have photos of the others. I know of no policy stating otherwise. Also, badgering another user about their qualifications is bad form. Anyone can edit. Finally, the RFC tag is probably wrong - this isn't a science or math question - it's a content question. — Zaui (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm, Zaui I wonder who is badgering whom? I assume that it would be OK if I add images of alcohol liquids and alcohol foams since these are the only bottles I have available and this would satisfy everyone.--JSHibbard 15:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been neutral throughout this discussion, using the best of my judgement to determine what works best in the inteests of this article. Your pestering about my qualifications is irregular and unnecessary. I quote: "I continue to edit this article since I am very qualified to do so. What are your qualifications for editing the article on alcohol gels?". I believe it would be this sort of statement that Zaui is referring to.
I am very grateful that another neutral editor has stepped into this. Consensus of 3 to 1 has made this issue very simple. Of course it would have been very simple from the start if you had only taken my opinion and Escape Orbit's into account. I believe Escape Orbit offered the solution very early on: "If you think other pictures of other types are required then why don't you contribute them?". I'm am glad this issue is resolved; if further issues arise then hopefully they can be resolved in a more straightforward way. I look forward to seeing this article with a bit more colour.
Seraphim Whipp 08:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Please visit my web page for my qualifications in editing the alcohol article. I believe you will find my qualifications adequate. I will be adding images of alcohol liquids and foams to the article in the near future.--JSHibbard 23:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed rediculous phrase

I have removed the ridiculous phrase " I LIKE CHEESE CRACKERS OJ DID IT ". It was completely inappropriate and out of place.--JSHibbard 16:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disguised Advertising

I have removed the paragraph below from the alcohol rub article for the following reasons:

1) The paragraph is a disguised advertisement. Advertising is not allowed on Wikipedia. (see above)
2) The product is mislabeled in the US. The maximum concentration for benzalkonium chloride in a sanitizer is 200 ppm. (CFR178:10:10)
3) Alcohol rubs with moisturizers do not dry hands with repeated use. (see references in article)

More recently, and in connection with side effects of alcohol-based products--specifically dry/irritated hands after prolonged or ongoing use, alternatives to alcohol-based products have been introduced to the marketplace. One product manufactured in Canada and distributed worldwide is So[1]popular...its active ingredient is benzalkonium chloride, FDA-approved and proven to have the same germ-killing efficacy as alcohol-based products. Unlike alcohol-based products, this is hypoallergenic and used as an antiseptic.--JSHibbard 21:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Incomplete Information

I have removed the sentence below because this list of inactive ingredients in alcohol rubs is incomplete. If we are going to list the inactive ingredients in alcohol rubs, then we need to expand the list. The inactive ingredients in hand sanitizers are not important except for the use of moisturizers or emollients. The rest are simply to change the physical characteristics of alcohol rubs from a liquid to a gel or foam.

"Inactive ingredients typically include a thickening agent such as Carbomer (a trade name for polyacrylic acid), and humectants such as glycerin and propylene glycol."JSHibbard (talk) 00:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Information should not be removed because it is incomplete. This has already been explained to you in regards to your insistence on either having a picture of every form of alcohol rub or none. Benea (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image of CVS Hand Sanitizer

I have removed the image of CVS Hand Sanitizer. This is blatant advertising and is not allowed by Wikipedia.JSHibbard (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There isn't a single WP policy that I am aware of that prohibits the use of such an image in the article for demonstration purposes. If you believe it is not allowed on WP, it is your burden to cite the exact policy which disallows it. Failing to do so, your edit will be justifiably reverted. --AB (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see it as advertising. It's just a photo of a typical alcohol rub. What's the harm? — Zaui (talk) 23:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
According to the extensive discussion above there is a WP rule against advertising. Or maybe there is a rule against advertising for just some individuals and/or products. I have added a photo of a typical liquid alcohol rub and a typical foam alcohol rub to the article. I assume this is OK with everyone? I also have no problem with the image of the CVS alcohol gel being prominently displayed (the lead image?) at the top of the article and the liquid and foam alcohol rubs being "stuck" in the gallery where no one will see them. I am assuming no one will object to the removal of the CVS alcohol gel image from the gallery so there is no redundancy? However to be fair, and we must be fair, the Image at the top of the article (the lead image?) should be rotated so that each alcohol rub has it's day? week? month? "moment in the spotlight". I believe this would be the only "fair" thing to do. What is the consensus? I will be more than happy to make certain all of the alcohol rubs get their "moment in the spotlight"JSHibbard (talk) 21:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for removing the image of a liquid alcohol rub. I really appreciate it. I also think the insertion of the colorless alcohol gel image is very funny. You have great sense of humor. I hope you don't mind. I added the liquid alcohol rub image back into the gallery. Have a great day. Your friend.JSHibbard (talk) 00:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise

I suggest a compromise before this gets out of hand. JSHibbard's picture can stay in the image gallery. I think we can bend the rule that wikipedia is not a collection of images this once since the user feels so strongly about it. However stating that "According to the extensive discussion above there is a WP rule against advertising." is not proof of this rule, JSHibbard has been the only one repeatedly demanding observance of this guideline without actually seeming to be aware of what it actually states. Several other users and I seem to agree that the current image is currently the best one illustrating an alcohol rub. There is no precedent for rotating images around for the sake of 'fairness' because one is in one user's opinion is perceived to be 'advertising', and the image will stay as the lead until consensus decides that another image is the best one to illustrate the subject of the article. There is no particular issue about removing the repeating image in the image gallery. Images in the image gallery are not stuck there so that 'no one will see them', the intention is exactly the opposite. To be honest I really can't understand JSHibbard's determination to edit this article so that it conforms to what he wants, only grudgingly giving ground when opposed by consensus. I would remind him to consider WP:OWN -Benea (talk) 00:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I definitely concur with the point about WP:OWN. I think this article would be better improved by images that actually show what the subject is about i.e. an image of actual alcohol gel, not an image of the bottle that alcohol gel comes in. Take soap as an example; the images show soap, not the packaging soap comes in. A reader is going to want to know what visual difference there is between different alcohol rubs and that can't be well illustrated with a picture of a bottle. Alcohol rubs could be better illustrated with an image of someone using it on their hands. Seraphim♥ Whipp 01:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
JSHibbard, as I understand, the ideal lead image for any article should be one which is best and sufficiently representative of the article. There is typically one and only one such image. Weight should also be given to the freedom delivered by the license of the image, with public domain being the most free and least restrictive license possible. For this article, I believe the CVS image is ideal, as explained above by Seraphim. Moreover, as stated by Benea, there is no precedent for rotating images – unless the images are all first class, highly representative, and equally free. --AB (talk) 01:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I also much prefer the CVS image over any that are currently in the article. Seraphim♥ Whipp 01:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I definitely concur with Seraphim Whipp that the article would be better improved by images that actually show the application of an alcohol rub on the hands. I will work on it and get back to everyone. Hey, by the way, what happened to the image of an alcohol foam in the gallery? Have a great day.JSHibbard (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Inactive Ingredient Information Aagin

I have removed the following sentence from the article again. "Inactive ingredients typically include a thickening agent such as Carbomer (a trade name for polyacrylic acid), and humectants such as glycerin and propylene glycol". I did not remove the sentence just because it was incomplete. Please reread the first reason for removal again. The inactive ingredients in alcohol rubs are not relevant except for moisturizers and or emollients. They serve an important function. Moisturizers and emollients keep alcohol from drying out hands. The rest of the inactive ingredients are unnecessary and in some case are potentially harmful (ie. propylene glycol). They change the physical characteristics of the alcohol rub from a liquid to a foam or a gel. What about the dozens of other inactive ingredients? Shall we list those too? What about the dozens of fragrances? I don't believe they should be listed and I do not believe other inactive ingredients should be listed. It contributes absolute nothing but confusion to the article.JSHibbard (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the harm in this either. It's just a list of what people could find if they read the label of a typical alcohol rub. We could expand it to mention fragrances or any other class of material that may be found in these products - whether they serve an "important function" or not. And why would propylene glycol be potentially harmful? — Zaui (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I also don’t see the harm in listing what is on the labels. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 05:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edited the Statement

12,000 children did not have alcohol gel "related alcohol-poisoning directly attributed to hand sanitizer products" 12,000 children "were repoted to have ingested a hand sanitizer product" Listen to the video.JSHibbard (talk) 21:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)