Talk:Alberto Rivera

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Removed a paragraph of "Rivera's claims have never been denied or refuted by the Catholic Church", as this is demonstrably untrue. See the Catholic Answers page in the links section; in particular, note that the R.C.C. has denied Rivera's claims of having been a Catholic priest - on which many of his other claims depend.

The same site also lists numerous other objections to Rivera's claims. Whether these count as 'refutation' is a matter of POV, but they can certainly be seen as such; thus, claiming that Rivera's claims 'have never been refuted' is POV. As such, I've removed it. --Calair 02:26, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, we shouldnt say "Rivera, a fruad from spain...". Even if Rivera himself wouldnt give others the same respect. However, it could be made quite clear that his claims can not be confirmed by any objective source whatsoever. Also, mention should be made of the fact that Chick later claims Rivera was a Bishop with the Jesuits. Of course in my opinion this has about as much credibility as the "Vatican Pornography Conspiracy", but I will try to return with facts.

Cialovesyou 14:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Categorisation

Per the NPOV policy, I've removed the tag categorising Rivera as an "impostor"; there may be a lot of evidence for it, but this is hotly contested. We don't judge neo-Nazis; we present the facts and let the reader judge. The same should be done here. Johnleemk | Talk 17:35, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Calair 22:51, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the title "Dr." from Rivera's name, apparrently he has admitted recieving his degrees from a diploma mill and never having actually earned them. Kmerian 01:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That admission would be an interesting addition to this article - what's the source? --Calair 02:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
From the Cornerstone Magazine article: Alberto commands great respect from many with his alleged numerous degrees including an N.D., a D.D., a Th.D., a Ph.D., and a master's in psychology. However, he is ambiguous when asked where he received these degrees. Alberto attended a seminary in Costa Rica (the Seminario Biblio Latinamericano) with a friend from Las Palmas, but he did not graduate. That friend, Rev. Plutarco Bonilla (a respected Christian leader in Central America), said that Alberto never finished high school in Las Palmas and that he was in the seminary's program for non‑high school graduates. The school in a letter said they were forced to expel Alberto for his "continual lying and defiance of seminary authority," The known chronology of his life does not allow time for him to have achieved the academic status he claims. When Rev. Wishart pressed Alberto concerning his degrees, Alberto admitted receiving them from a diploma mill in Colorado. Kmerian 17:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a great article. I just wanted to let you know that you did a good job. When I read the section on his claims I was caught off guard for a moment thinking they were presented as fact. The writing on that section may hit the reader a bit hard, but it's not confusing for more than a second. Good page...Paul August 17, 2006

Thanks, I read the Cornerstone article a while back but didn't remember that part. I've added it here. --Calair 01:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alberto's homepage

Alberto's homepage has become a link farm (after the initial enter page). I have thus removed it. Since he is dead it seems unlikely it will be back, but if it is preserved somewhere or Chick has kept it around on his website or something, feel free to add it back. Kit 19:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed dispute tag

I removed a 'section disputed' tag from the page because no explanation of that dispute was offered here - feel free to re-add the dispute tag after explaining what the dispute is about. --Calair 12:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Fine, I'll make a dispute: I did not know what other tag to use. But the biography seems rather unusual... At the end he turns into an angel and saves his sister, also the catholics are tortuing him... It sounds unlikely...
I think you may have misunderstood that section on a couple of points.
First, the first paragraph of that section says "the following account reflects Rivera's own claims rather than generally-agreed facts". Whether or not they're actually true, Rivera did *claim* those things, and that's all this section says. I don't think his own account is available online, but you can find a comic-form adaption of some of it, including the torture claims.
Second... there's nothing in there about him turning into an angel. It does say he 'flew to London'... but presumably that was in a plane. --Calair 03:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
In absence of further comment here, I've removed the dispute tag again and reworked the article in a way that will (hopefully) make such misunderstandings less likely to recur. The previous version claimed that Rivera denounced the Catholic Church in a Costa Rican stadium in 1967; I don't have access to Rivera's original version, but the Chick adaptation says Guatemala, 1965 - I've changed it accordingly, but if somebody can find Costa Rica and 1967 in Rivera's version, please change back and perhaps note the discrepancy. --Calair 00:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alberto's Fans

It looks like one of Alberto's fans has valdalized one of the sections, adding this drivel after the book title (starting with 'However...')-

Author Gary Dale Cearley has written a book refuting these claims about the Roman Catholic Church and Islam. The book is titled Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness: The Truth About the Vatican and the Birth of Islam. However, its common knowledge that Roman Catholicism is indeed a mixture of Roman pagan practices and gods with Christian labels; these contradictions led to the world-wide Protestant Reformation that re-discovered the essence of the Christian early church is salvation through faith in a pardon by Jesus Christ---not by good behavior in any church. A large human organization commanding the unquestioning obedience of millions of people would have plenty of funds to hire agents to disrupt those who oppose them so the Rivera story is plausible.

I don't know what was originally intended for this paragraph, but it seems trashed beyond repair, my apologies to whoever got their work messed up.

I can't imagine this stuff fits in on Wikipedia, so I cut it. Perhaps Mr. Chick is a registered member here... Thedegu 00:10, 30 September 2006 -- Thedegu 00:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)thedegu

[edit] Cornerstone Story dead link

I'm removing references to the Cornerstone refutation of Rivera because the links seem to be coming up dead. I'll see if the address as changed or whatever but this is creating a hole in the article sources and references. Can anyone fill this in? --PigmanTalk to me 19:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE: The Cornerstone site [1] is still there but a search of the domain for Rivera only finds one passing reference to him. Again, this puts strain on the underlying available documentation of some of what is said in the article. A new link to the article would really be useful. Instead of deleting the current link, I'm going to comment it out in case it can be updated. --PigmanTalk to me 19:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately, there's an archive copy on the Wayback Machine. But note that references don't have to be weblinks; "Cornerstone Magazine issue 53" would be a perfectly adequate reference for this stuff, even if the online version vanished. --Calair 00:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
No, of course it doesn't have to be a weblink. I just like it when citations are available online so I can look at them myself. It certainly doesn't make the sources more valid by any means. But I'm also not thrilled to re-insert a reference that isn't current. I can validate the contents of the article at the Wayback Machine but it bothers me to use that as a link for the article. Just personal thing about sources; I like them to be current and semi-permanent (well, as much as can be expected on the internet.) PigmanTalk to me 02:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Me too, but unless it reappears on the Cornerstone site an archive version is probably the least bad option. --Calair 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted/ More Vandalism

Someone with the IP 68.46.155.9 came in on Feb. 25 and vandalized the page, and I had to revert it back to its Feb. 20 state. This guy tore apart the whole article, basically changing the first half into 'Alberto's Story (as Told by Alberto).' The vandal even rewrote the 'Cornerstone' section in a more Alberto-leaning manner.

  • Sloppy grammar, too...

The vandalized sections featured stuff like: "Alberto Magno Romero Rivera (1935 - 1997) was a Jesuit priest who later defected from the Catholic Church and reported in numerous interviews and publications that the Catholic Church was "Babylon the Whore" from Revelations and that the Pope was the man name calculated to 666 in Revelations. This argument was also shared by many notable men in history such as Sir Isaac Newton and almost all protestant reformers such as Luther and Calvin as the pope's mitre does read "Vicarius Filii Dei" which adds to 666 in Roman Numerals and the Catholic church did admittedly kill 68 million people usually in torturous fashion for owning, teaching, or translating the bible. But the interesting twist to Rivera's story was that he claimed the Catholic Church had briefed him at the Vatican a much different world history than what is generally accepted, filled with the Catholic Church attempting to obtain a unified world government and church with the Pope as ruler."

I think you'd agree with the revert if you checked it.

[edit] Signature

Sorry, that last revert/comment was by me. 71.199.70.215 07:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)thedegu

[edit] Burial Information

I am not sure how well visited this page is, but having the exact grave site mentioned seems a little invasive to me. I have looked at several pages about deceased individuals and the article may say, "was buried in such-and-such cemetery" but never the exact location of the grave. Paranoid are not, it seems like the guy had some concern about the desecration of his corpse. Do we really need to promote the exact location of his final resting place so that any kook can vandalize it? 66.192.126.3 09:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.110.133.81 (talk • contribs).

Risk of vandalism aside (and the 'information that can be misused' issue is a very knotty one), I think there's a simpler reason for removing that information: it just isn't terribly noteworthy. Will tweak the article accordingly. --Calair 01:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


I am the one who puut in the info about where the grave was located. I was specific because there is no marker, so how else to locate the grave, if someone wanted to put a rememberance, etc.

As to the "citation needed" mark on the fact that a mass was celebrated there, and the grave was blessed by a local priest at an earlier date...well, that was me. *I* blessed the grave, and celebrated the mass on the anniversary of Rivera's death. I have no idea how to put a citation on that. Thoughts? FrRob 03:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be reported in a reliable external source - unfortunately we occasionally have problems with malicious editors falsifying material or purporting to be somebody they're not, so policy is that an editor vouching for something isn't enough... which is a considerable nuisance to the rest of us, but probably necessary :-( --Calair 03:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] needs sources

This article has no references section, and its External links section consists of three links, two of which are to Jack Chick's site and the third is catholic.com... the article needs more secondary sources and less primary ones. Also, the article is written largely from the Jack Chick POV: if the Rivera's claim to fame is his criticism of what he discovered while he was a priest, and the Catholic church claims he never was a priest, this is obviously something that should be mentioned more prominently and not buried under a section titled "biography". wikipediatrix 21:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article to biased

Though this article relied heavily on the charges against Alberto Rivera (c/o the article in the Christianity Today), it never presented neutral grounds like the independent investigation of the Canadian Protestant League which is called the Protestant Challenge.. Whoever is the author/s of this article probably is a "child" of the Vatican.

"...probably is a "child" of the Vatican." - Uuuummm, well, oooookaaaaay then.

[edit] Assasinated?

Where's the information about how the man died? On this page you see two videos, the title to the second is: "Very Rare video of Jim Arrabito interviewing Dr. Alberto Rivera (both Died under very suspicious circumstances)"

Jim Arrabito currently has no article in Wikipedia, but should. He was a history professor specializing in the history of Christianity. Here's a page with his videos, wherein you'll find a series called “Jesuits in History”, and as most documentaries on the Jesuits it’s not in their favor.

Am I the only one here that thinks this looks a bit suspicious? Why do these people mysteriously die after revealing to the world the methods the Papacy has used in the past to “stamp out heresy” and to promote her cause, and the danger of giving her state power?

These issues are not addressed and barely covered in the history classes, and look how many things which pertain to them are mysteriously missing from Wikipedia. I can’t find the Jesuit Oath, Jim Arrabito, or Francisco Ribera.

I guess it’s the consensus of the majority that there’s nothing to fear. So maybe the Catholic Church uses assassins and spies as her modern day “inquisitors”, but she means well and her end will be for the good of all mankind. I guess life would be better if the whole world bowed down to this institution which kills anyone that speaks against it.

Or maybe everyone really is scared they will be assassinated? I can understand that. One would have to have a real experience with God to be willing to put his life and the ones he loves in danger for what he believes. “and they loved not their lives unto the death”, (Rev 12:11). On the other hand to sympathize with the secret societies, you only need a fraternal instinct, a desire to be on the popular side, apathy, or a smirky, witty, make-fun-of-the-conspiracy-theorist attitude.

What would people rather assume? That the Jesuits and Knights of Columbus have only their missionary work and no secret society which people don’t see outwardly? That the Jesuits are not known to conceal their identity as Jesuits, like under-cover agents?


Why, for one example, are Protestants are no longer protesting the abuses of Rome, no longer teaching the historical interpretation of the prophecies, taught by the founders of all the original Protestant denominations, that the Anti-Christ is the Roman church-state power, the “man of sin” which “sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”, (2 Thes 2:4), the great harlot who rides atop a seven headed beast, “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus”, (Rev 17:6)? Why do they now teach the “Secret Rapture” theory, which is based on Futurism, which was concocted by Jesuit priest and doctor of theology, [Francisco Ribera], during the Council of Trent in the mid 1500s?(see these articles.) This is the very kind of thing the Jesuits aim to secure. The result is that Protestants no longer see the Papacy as the Anti-Christ power of Revelation and Daniel and which all the apostles warned us about.

  • ”My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among the Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.”, (beginning of the Jesuit Oath)

“and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration”, (Rev 17:6).

So either the Catholic power really cares about the good of mankind, or just seeks world domination. I think if she wanted the good of mankind, she would teach the bible and seek to imitate the character of Christ. Is it ludicrous to believe she doesn’t thirst for power? If the Devil offered her complete control of the bodies and souls of all mankind, would she refuse?

“And the devil .. showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.” (Luke 4:5-7)

What would have happened if our Lord would have taken that offer?


This view does not reflect hatred toward Catholics, but a love for freedom, religious freedom, freedom to worship how you want, freedom which was never allowed by the Catholic Church during her bloody reign of power, which will not be allowed if she gains such power again.

I really want to persuade people to join my church, but where would be the satisfaction if I knew that person had no other choice?

Cherish your freedoms while they last, because you won’t have them for very long. But then I guess that won’t be a problem for the majority. “and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

”the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world”, (Rev 12:9). Rush4hire 15:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


Yeah, right, whatever. Thanks for the sermon and short jaunt into Chickite conspiracy theory. Thedegu 19:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)thedegu


[edit] Excuse me. My edits on this page are NOT "vadalism"

Who do you idiots really THINK you are? My contribution was very important. How could you delete it? Jersyko is a FALSE accuser and a over all LIAR. Put back Alberto's ID or there is going to be BIG problems. I have hundreds of supporters and I will let them know through the front page of my website that YOU are taking away vital information proving the authenticity of Alberto Rivera's testimony. Be prepared to spend ALL your time fixing this page because it will corrected from YOUR vandalism 1000's of times over. If you lock the page a new page for Alberto Rivera will be created. I'm not going to sit by and let wikipedia be a platform for all your personal opinions. I'm not simply linking to my website. My website has very important information to the article I am contributing to. Tlthe5th 18:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Tlthe5th

The edits Tlthe5th were not vandalism. He added pertinate information on Ex Jesuit Alberto Rivera. It was his spanish ID issued under Francisco Franco of Spain. The only one who removed large amounts of information was Jersyko. Tlthe5th didnt remove anything except a tag at the top. And that might have been an accident. Otto42, it's amazing how you wont even look at the edits and accuse Tlthe5th of removing large amounts of data. That is very irresponsible for an admin. I'm going to have to report what's going on here. The only links that were added with the Jesuit ID information was from a website called chick.com. Thomas Richards 15:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)Thomas Richards

And then you go and delete massive amounts of information yourself. That *is* vandalism. If you think it's biased, correct the bias, but do *NOT* remove large quantities of information without discussion and debate. Also, please try and understand that we have no bias here. We don't care about your particular viewpoint. I have no real interest in Alberto Rivera myself. I'm just not going to allow you to monopolize the article with your POV and that of your little community. Continued vandalism will result in administrative action. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to vent your personal beliefs. -- Otto 03:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

hey Otto, you say you have no interest in Albertyo Rivera and yet you delete large amounts of information and label your edit as saying someone entered some 'pop-up'. Does truth matter to you at all? you didnt just delete and entry by someone adding 'pop-ups' you edited whole huge sections of information. Including Albertio's jesuit I.D. Now please stop vandalising the article under the deceptive guise of being admin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.219.18 (talk) 17:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User at IP 69.22.219.18: I have done no such thing. I'm reverting your vandalism and attacks against me personally, as you've been spending the last few days reverting my edits. I do not know what you're talking about with "pop-ups" and I did not remove any information from the article. Other people did that. I'm simply preventing you from your persistent vandalism. Please stop. If you want to discus changes, then discuss them. But simply reverting everybody else's changes to push your point of view is not how Wikipedia works. Deal with it. -- Otto 17:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cadaver synod?

I don't see the connection here? Is this just a way to slip in something? I think that sentence should be struck out unless a citation is provided.136.242.228.218 20:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


I put that line in, because it may explain why Rivera is buried in an unmarked grave. There is weird paranoia in the Jack Chick literature about how Rivera's widow was afraid the "Jesuits would dig up his corpse to put it on trial." The only connection I can think of to anything ever recorded about the Catholic faith was the "Cadaver synod," which is (unfortunately) factual history. - Fr. Robert Dye, Tulsa, Oklahoma —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.75.168 (talk) 17:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Jesuit" ID

I removed the "Jesuit ID". If you want to post it here, fine, use a thumbnail and identify it correctly. It is purported to be an ID card issued by the Spanish Government not the Jesuit order, so it is improper to call it a "Jesuit ID". Nothing on the card identifies the person on it as a Jesuit. And the comments about Franco's security forces are irrelevant to this article.Kmerian 17:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)