Talk:Albert Fish

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Good article Albert Fish has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.


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Maintained The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) User:Wjhonson
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

Contents

[edit] Monkey/ Pee-Wees?

What are they exactly? As morbid it may be, you might want to provide an explanation for readers not familiar with such slang. 88.114.75.92 16:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)I guess "monkey and pee-wees" means the boy's penis and testicles.

[edit] Oh, CONGRATULATIONS

I spent ages reformatting this page so that it would flow better. Then some idiot went and changed it again, but still using most of my work - yet still managed to make it as disorganised as before. THIS PAGE IS NOT CRONOLOGICAL, NOR DOES IT FLOW PROPERLY

Plus, Fish has been proven to be the Brooklyn vampire. And whatever fool thinks there were 5 victims of the vampire is sorely mistaken - there were only four. Stop changing what is correct and good for the article.

I shall make my changes in due time. --Naylor182 12:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rebuttal

I don't know anything about the Brooklyn Vampire, I haven't seen any references in the newspaper archives.

There is at least one other person that was killing children in New York City during the same years, Peter Kudzinowski and he was a suspect in the Gaffney murder. Fish confessed to three murders and was convicted for one. He said he stabbed two others starting in 1910. I chuj, japierdole co z tego,że on miał taki zjebany ryj !

King had at least three other people who were suspects in the Budd murder and two were arrested, and one stood trial and was found innocent.

References to primary and secondary sources are much more accurate than tertiary sources. Crime library has the best written tertiary source that doesn't make sensationalist claims, the New York Times and the Washington Post coverage is the most dispassionate, and never mentions the Brooklyn Vampire at all. They use the "gray man" and "wusteria murder" and "wusteria werewolf". I have downloaded 16 articles on the murders and the trial. King had many theories that turned out to be completely wrong, and any theories should be attributed to their sources, and should NOT be presented as fact. Fish also told many stories, some backed by facts and by witnesses, others that didn't fit the forensic evidence. Please always cite sources and attribute info to that source whenever you can.

  • Avoid: Fish raped over 100 children.
  • Better: Fish told his psychiatrist that he had raped over 100 children.
  • Avoid: Fish was the Brooklyn Vampire.
  • Better: Detective King believed Fish to be responsible for the killings of several children in New York City that were never solved.


Each time the phrase is put in context so the reader can judge the value and reliability of the sources. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stayed v. Staid

The spelling of the word stayed is, in fact, "staid" in the original letter. After my second correction of this I feel it must be stated explicitly: "staid" is not in error; it is correct insofar as it recreates the original text more accurately. User:Sir Isaac

[edit] Misc

There is a story, may be urban legend, that the first attempt at electrocution shorted the machine and burnt the fuses before accomplishing the task, because of all the needles, nails and razor blades inside his body. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 09:18, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)

172.133.71.172 is a vandal is his edit OK ? I don't know enough about Fish to see which version is right. Ericd 21:26, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Nice catch. I initiated the page, you got it right. Thanks. vudu 23:54, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

During 1898, he was married to a woman nine years his junior and fathered six children before his wife ran off with another man.

This seems like an unbelievably active year!! GreatWhiteNortherner 01:13, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Jinjo. Man, that is funny.

Is he related to the Sec. of State Hamilton Fish? AMFriedman 11:33 AM, 23 April 2006 (CST)

[edit] Hannibal Lecter

For future reference, Albert Fish was not the inspiration for Hannibal Lecter.

Here is an exercept from CrimeLibrary.com refering to Harris' inspiration "...that Harris once told a librarian in his home town, Cleveland, Mississippi, that Lecter was inspired by a murderer named William Coyne, who had escaped from prison in 1934 and gone on a rampage in Cleveland that included acts of murder and cannibalism. Coyne’s exploits were the stuff of local legend when Harris was growing up and might have planted the seed for Lecter in the author’s mind."

There, now stop changing it.

Anyway, my favorite is Andrei Chickatilo.... iskrena

[edit] Inspiration for Lecter

About the inspiration for the Lecter character from Demme's film--do we have a documented quote from either Harris (the author of the novel) or Demme? This talk about some librarian talking to Demme is nothing more than hearsay.

This article notes that there are a lot of real life serial killers that may be the inspiration for the character: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/lecter/2.html?sect=3

[edit] Fried Fish

OK, Cab88, you're right, it doesn't belong in the article. I just find it hard to avoid an obvious "punning situation". But I'm working on it. As a consolation, I'm posting it here, for the possible bemusement of all.  :) Wahkeenah 23:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fried Fish.

Got some French Fries to go with that?

User_Talk:Michael_Reiter

[edit] What do we really know about Fish?

From my superficial knowledge of the case, it would seem that Fish was a masochist who abducted and murdered a number of children. He also claimed to have eaten them, and probably claimed to have killed a larger number and tortured more still. The body of Grace Budd as recovered, but which other disappearences were linked to him by physical evidence? A number of witnesses in child disappearences, or attempted abductions, identified him, which ones? Do we definately know he killed 15 children? Do we definately know he was a cannibal? Any answers gratefully received. Rich Farmbrough 21:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've quickly re-read the CrimeLibrary linked article, and fixed up a few things in our article which differ (6 children not 5, Edward budd advertised, not Fish.) I've removed some of the claims that don't seem substantiated, many of the rest are founded on Fish's testimony alone. However we don't mention Billy Gaffney of any of the other victims, nor the strange trial. Having said that, someone with acess to source material could improve this artcile tremendously. Rich Farmbrough 11:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I have been putting in material from the New York Times coverage and info on the Budds from the 1920 Census. There is a lot of apocryphal stories about Fish. I also think he exaggerated his own image. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 23:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Capt. John Davis"

How much, if any, of this story is confirmed truth? --Creases 21:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disclaimer

I have removed the disclaimer at the top of the page, in line with the Wikipedia guidelines; see Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates. I presume the critical part of the article is the letter, so I'd suggest that it be moved to Wikisource. This would not only make the article less graphic, but also more compact and encyclopedic. GregorB 23:53, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Letter

I'm not a registered user, and so I feel aprehensive about taking down the letter. But it should be considered as it is uncited. It also arouses my suspicions by using language and vocabulary not common to the 30s (for example, "ass", "fuck", "tho", "could of" (instead of "could have")). Was there indeed a famine in China? What do we know for certain about this case? Should we request expert attention?.


In reply to the above comment on the letter: There is nothing new about the words "ass," "fuck," "tho" or "could of." (Especially "fuck.")

That sort of language was common for the time, you just usually see it cleaned up in a lot of sources. I've also seen the text of this letter in several sources and those words are in there. As stated in the original article, there were several phonetic misspellings and those have also been recreated. --Gmuir 03:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

someone check the timeline its not chronologic

The letter is authentic and correct in the use of the words 'fuck', 'ass', and 'tho'. http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/fish/gracie_1.html

Someone, probably an anonymous vandal, has added a few lines at the end (Too bad. Hugs and Kisses, Albert) that are not accurate. I'm removing them. A.V.

??????

Fish said that he was told by god to kill,

and that god still had more work for him to do. What do u think that might of been? Was he really hearing voices?

or was he simply insane?


______

Someone removed a particularly offensive line near the end of the letter and didn't bother to even post about it. I'm not really sure why someone who is that easily offended would be reading an article like this closely enough to see that, anyway. In any case, the line is back in, and so it now matches the linked source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.204.82 (talk) 09:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


Once again, the line was removed. It is the second to last sentence in the letter that keeps being removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.204.82 (talk) 20:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Of One Thing-

Of One Thing We Can All Be Sure; The Life Of Albert Hamilton Fish Was One Of Evil, and the Darkness, Pain and Sorrow He Brought To The Lives Of His Victims.

It Was Ended Appropriately Enough An The Electric Chair At the Sing-Sing Prison In New York... Like What Many In His Position Tend To Deserve Richly...

Michael 00:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Though a convinced atheist, I am still inclined to respond amen, brother to the above comment. When I see unrepentant cannibal-murderers like Issei Sagawa parade the television and media as free men, act like some Hollywood celebrity, and take pride in their crimes, I can only think of how much more civilised it would have been of society to put such life-forms to death, as was Albert Fish.

On another note, take a look at Sagawa's wikipedia entry talk page for some compelling arguments on the removal of lurid descriptions of cannibalism from wikipedia. How is posting Albert Fish's description of cannibalising a little girl any different to detailing acts of pedophilia on the relevant wp entry? In my opinion, both kinds of lurid narration are sick and have no place in an encyclopedic entry. 212.251.123.212 18:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Because it describes the act and how he went about it... two things that are encyclopdic. If one is offened by such, one should not read it. Typhoid Orchid 01:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Is the spelling tag reffering to the letter section? If so, that might have been the way he spelled it, and shouldn't we leave it as such, then? --Nqnpipnr17:06, June 27, 2006

[edit] Reason for fact tag

This statement "Most of his victims came from poor black families who were not likely to be able to do much about his actions." sounds like some wiki-editors opinion. So I added a fact tag. I'll leave it in for a while, then revert it, if no one can find the source to quote. Wjhonson 06:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the book Deranged ( written with the help of a man who knew Albert ), many of his victims came from poor families of all races.

If you could quote that passage in the article and cite the book that would be great. Thanks. Wjhonson 06:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date

Are you sure Fish's father was born in 1795? That would have made him 75 years old when he fathered Albert Fish! I realize this is possible, just seems as though it could be an error. ExRat 07:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Freaky isnt it! I added the image from the 1870 census that gave me the data. He died in 1875 so I cant confirm with a later census. I will look for him in the 1860 census. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The 1860 census shows the family listed as "Fisher": Randall Fisher (born Maine, age 60, thus born 1799-1800), Ellen R. Fisher (born Ireland, age 25, Walter Fisher (born Pa., age 1) and Ruby J. Wilson (born N.Y., age 8). (Randall Fisher household, 1860 U.S. census, ward 2, Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania, page 2, dwelling 12, family 13; National Archives microfilm publication M653, roll 1152; Ancestry.com, <www.ancestry.com>, image 2, accessed 20 July 2007). Mapjc 13:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed till confirmed

"Over the course of his criminal career, he murdered more than 23 children[citation needed] (some of whom he claimed to have eaten) and tortured others across the United States. It is believed that he may have killed adults as well."


How about the 'boogeyman' remark? Is there a source for that? 24.131.12.228 06:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following from Legacy for lack of evidence:
*Tori Amos' song "Cloud On My Tongue", from her 1994 album Under The Pink, makes a number of references to Fish ("if i ate her"/"I made up my mind to eat her"; "kiss the violets as they're waking up"/"She picked wildflowers"; "you can go now"/"You said Yes she could go"; "someone's knocking on my kitchen door"/"I told her to remain outside"; "circles and circles"; "all the girls here are freezing cold"). Lusanaherandraton 06:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Especially as I can't even find lines about "picked wildflowers" or "remain outside." I'm not sure any of that relates that unambiguously anyway. (I'm reading The Space Merchants at present and I have several Tori Amos CDs. I'd not heard of Fish before his mention in the Space Merchants, possibly that reference could go in Legacy)--T. Anthony 18:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright Concern

The image Albertfish.jpg at the top of this article is labeled on its own page as being in the public domain because it was "first published in the United States prior to January 1, 1923." This is a patent impossibility if it was indeed taken "around the time of his last arrest" (presumably 1935) as its description claims. Lusanaherandraton 06:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] boogeyman

"The term boogeyman was at the time in reference to him.[citation needed]" I don't see any references for this in any of the contemporary coverage in the New York Times except where a boy said the "boogeyman" took Gaffney.

[edit] More removed for sourcing or for weasel words

He is said to have consumed not only the flesh of his victims but also their urine, blood, and excrement. He attributed these tendencies to the abuse he suffered in childhood. He also claimed God sent him on "missions" to kill. His murders often involved slow torture. He would tie children up and whip them with a belt cut in half with nails sticking through to tenderize the flesh for cooking. Fish called his weapons "implements of hell."

A Daily News reporter who covered the trial wrote that Fish's "watery eyes gleamed at the thought of being burned by a heat more intense than the flames with which he often seared his flesh to gratify his lust," though others thought that Fish did not want to die. It is believed by some that he spoke of the prospect of electrocution as the "supreme thrill" and even helped the executioners fasten the straps that held his body in place.

His last words are said to have been "I don't know why I'm here". It was reported that the first jolt of electricity did not kill him, and that a second jolt was needed. A few wrote, facetiously, that the twenty-nine needles Fish had inserted into his body over the years, including his scrotal area, had caused a short circuit, causing him to remark, "Is that all you've got?" However, this is generally considered to be apocryphal, as guards insist that the first jolt did kill him and that all executed prisoners receive a second jolt as a precaution.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 04:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other crimes

"However, King was not allowed to bring the murders up as evidence in the trial because the District Attorney wanted Fish to be found sane, and given the death sentence, and too many murders may have swayed the jury the other way. The modus operandi of the vampire was to lure little girls into a basement, flog them, then garrote them with a rope. The murders of the 'Brookyn vampire' (and thus Fish) were:"

I am not a lawyer but with "King was not allowed to bring the murders up as evidence in the trial because the District Attorney wanted Fish to be found sane, and given the death sentence" I don't think hearsay evidence and speculation can be brought up in court to prejudice a jury. Fish was never formally charged with the crimes, even if they never went to trial, if there was strong evidence, they would have formally charged him. Suspicions by an investigator can't be brought up in court.

"The modus operandi of the vampire was to lure little girls into a basement, flog them, then garrote them with a rope." Gaffney was killed in a garbage dump, and Francis X. McDonnell was found strangled in the woods with his own suspenders. Neither were in basements. Two of the victims were boys, and one girl was age 16, a teenager. For the death of Yetta Abramowitz (1915-1927) the criminal was described as a "tall young man" and was seen by several people.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 21:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Fishy Fish stories

A lot of the Fish stories come from his interviews to be declared insane. He told stories of molesting hundreds of children, but could only provide details, and confessed to three of them according to the New York Times. Most stories never matched up with his timeline of travel except the three he confessed to, and the one where he was painting a house in the same area.

I want to move the Vampire stories down to the section on "potential victims" since he was never charged with the murders or confessed to them, other than Gaffney and McDowell and the two or three stabbings from 1910-1920, where it isn't clear from the sources if they died. There are lots of websites claiming more victims. And police like to take all unidentified killings and attribute them to current convicted killers to clear up the caseload. Murders should be attributed to him if 1) he confessed 2) or, there is forensic evidence linking him 3) or, he is found guilty in court. Suspicions should be placed under the proper header.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 00:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Attack or murder

"Fish, after he was sentenced to death, admitted that he committed his first murder, Thomas Bedden (1886-1910?) in Wilmington in 1910. This was followed by the murder of a mentally retarded boy in 1919. He was tortured and mutilated to death."

Which of the two is "he" referring to? Another report says he stabbed them and ran away, and doesnt know if they lived or died. Anyone have a clue or a third source? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 03:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How many killings

[edit] 15

How many victims did actually fall prey to Albert Fish? It is speculated that Fish may have indeed murdered at least fifteen children and assaulted hundreds ... Source: River of Blood: Serial Killers and Their Victims - Page 114 by Amanda Howard, Martin Smith - 2004 - 372 pages

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 22:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] 6

"When and where Fish first became a murderer is unknown. He confessed to six killing and referred vaguely to dozens more, although the victims, dates and places were lost to his hazy memory. He did confess to murdering a man in Wilmington, Delaware; mutilating and torturing to death a mentally retarded boy in New York in 1910; killing a Negro boy in Washington also in 1919; molesting and killing four year-old William Gaffney in 1929; and strangling to death five year-old Francis McDonnell on Long Island in 1934. The most sensational murder carried out by Fish was the abduction and horrific slaughter of Grace Budd in 1928. Her abduction led to a man hunt that lasted for six years. The police have given up hope of ever solving her mysterious disappearance until a slender clue, gleaned from an anonymous letter sent to the girl's parents, led detectives to Albert Fish." [1]

[edit] 15

"Albert Fish (15) Meet the patron saint of sadomasochism. Albert Fish, the granddaddy of the deranged, enjoyed implanting needles in his genitalia, stuffing his asshole with flaming alcohol balls, eating shit, killing children and making stews out of their remains. The father of six, Albert lost it after his wife left him for another man. Despondent Al asked his kids to beat him with a nail-studded paddle until he bled. He thought that he was Christ and that God had ordered him to castrate boys. Good Al did was he was told, and enjoyed it thoroughly. This dirty old man from hell was in the habit of molesting and killing children of both sexes." [2] --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article?

I was going to fail this article as GA candidate, but ironically, another editor promoted it while I was writing up my concerns. Although the article is in pretty good shape, I believe it fails the GA criteria on a couple of points. These need to be addressed if the article is to remain categorized as a good article.

1. The article isn't that well organized. Some events are presented chronologically, but others are out of order, and the biography is broken down into too many sections.

The events are written in the timeline of his capture, earlier murders are only confessed to at a later date. Thats how Crime Library handles the timeline, and the book on him. Both present the information in the order of their discovery, not in real time. Thats because the information wasnt determined until his confession.

2. Apart from the biography, there is little well-organized information. In particular, the trivia section bugs me -- some of those entries seem utterly unimportant, while more important ones are missing (wasn't Fish, along with Ed Gein, the model for Hannibal Lecter)?

No! Harris has never divulged any influences for creating Lecter, all is speculation.
Still, perhaps notable speculation? (Especially if it can be said definitively that Harris has not divulged his influences.)
I don't think an encyclopedic article should have speculation.
Pop reference removed

Mangojuicetalk 10:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC) 3. I don't like the use of so many extensive quotes. The letter Fish sent to Budd's mother is worth including, perhaps, but the other quotes seem excessive.

All removed

4. I'm a bit concerned about the images in this article -- they don't have a clear source (IMO, probably copied from crimelibrary, where I saw them before). I'm not sure the images are copyrighted, but I'm not sure they're free, and the ones that are tagged as copyrighted now don't really have fair use rationales, which they should. (This alone would not cause me much concern, but it's worth bringing up.) The 1903 image is PD, the mugshot falls under mugshot fair use, and the grace budd image is in dozens of books and also in the Corbis archive as origin unknown, it was released when she went missing by the police.

Good luck on improving it, I think it's a worthy topic and a good start. (I've assessed the article as B-class.) Mangojuicetalk 18:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, no one's been addressing these issues, so I've delisted the article. Feel free to renominate if the issues are addressed. Let strengthen my concern #2: Good articles should not have trivia sections, like the "popular culture" section in this article. See WP:AVTRIV. Mangojuicetalk 04:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Consensus? Can one person represent a consensus? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't pretend to represent a consensus all on my own. However, this is the way the WP:GA procedure works. As I said, anyone may feel free to renominate. Mangojuicetalk 18:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture

  • Fish's crimes are recounted in Harold Schecter's Deranged and The Serial Killer Files.
  • In Stephen King and Peter Straub's novel Black House, the serial killer known as "The Fisherman" is loosely based on Fish. The character, like Fish, engages in both cannibalism and child murder. Furthermore, several of the letters the Fisherman sends to grieving parents are intentionally similar to Fish's own letters.
  • Fish is mentioned in Chapter 11 of The Space Merchants as an example of an extreme masochist.
  • Marilyn Manson drummer Ginger Fish's stage name was derived in part from Albert Fish.
  • The Weasels (who have recorded a series of songs over the past two decades about various notorious killers) memorialized Fish in their song titled "A Fish."
  • 'Murder metal' band Macabre have written three songs about him, namely "Albert was Worse than any Fish in the Sea", "Mr. Albert Fish Was Children Your Favorite Dish" and "Fishtales".
  • The Blood Duster song Albert is a reference to Albert Fish.
  • Grind band Dahmer have written a song about him, "Albert Hamilton Fish".
  • In House of 1000 Corpses, a wax figure of Fish is one of the many serial killers and madmen present on Captain Spaulding's nightmarish Murder Ride. Spaulding describes in lurid detail the extent of Fish's crimes and masochistic acts that he inflicted on himself.
  • The lyrics for the song "Document. Grace Budd" by The Number Twelve Looks Like You are the last lines from the letter to Grace Budd's parents.
  • In 2007, two films will be released about Albert Fish; one entitled simply Albert Fish, with Oto Brezina starring, and the other Wisteria: The Story of Albert Fish, with Patrick Bauchau in the title role.
  • Inside Cannibal Corpse's album "Butchered At Birth", the last lines of the letter to Grace Budd's parents are quoted along with a quote from Baron Gilles de Rais.
  • The character Herbert on Family Guy is based on Albert Fish.

[edit] GA on hold

This article was a former GA article so there shouldn't be too many problems. Here's some of the suggestions I have before I'll return it to GA.

1. Well written?: Very good but fix the redirects, add wikilinks, and fix the sentences listed below.
  • Fix redirects for: child molester, Washington, District of Columbia (also in the infobox), death penalty, religious mania, heart attack, Washington, DC, homosexual, prostitute, St. John, San Francisco, Brooklyn, New York, boogey man, psychiatrists, urophilia, masochism, Frederic Wertham, death sentence, Far Rockaway, Queens, Frederic Wertham, sadism and masochism, genitals, & sado-masochism.
: is this Wikipedia policy or a personal obsession? I can see if the redirect is a mispelling such as the link to Wertham, but changing valid synonyms to match exact article titles seems unusual. What purpose does it serve? Can you quote the exact policy?
  • Wikilink of further explain the following: orphanage, erection, brothel, porter, fully wikilink the Equitable Life Assurance Company while avoiding the redirect, & trolley.
:linked
  • The intro paragraph has to many "He"s at the beginning of the sentences, try varying it up more, such as "authorities stated that he..."
:fixed
  • Remove some of the phrasing throughout the article of "he said", since sources are mainly used, not just his personal accounts. Examples: "By 1890, Albert had arrived in New York City, and he said he became a male prostitute." & "He said he had been named after Hamilton Fish, a distant relative."
:It is written this way because there is sometimes a big gap between what he said and verifiable facts. Sourcing it to a book will not distinguish it for the reader whether he said it or it is a verifiable fact. For instance he said he molested 100 children, but that doesn't fit into the known facts and timeline. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • After semicolon, remove capital F: "Following this rejection, Fish began to hear voices; For example, he once wrapped himself up in a carpet,"
:fixed
  • In the last two paragraphs of his early life, the years are out of sequence, correct them so they are in a proper timeline.
:fixed
  • If you can, further explain his attack on Thomas Bedden. How did he attack him? Was he injured/killed?
: nothing more is known
  • In the Billy Gaffney section, the first statement has "with with" in it, fix that.
:fixed
  • Combine some of these sentences or add more detail as it appears too choppy: "Billy's parents were Elizabeth and Edward Gaffney. Elizabeth visited Fish in Sing Sing to try and get more details of her son's death.[16] Fish confessed to the murder."
:fixed
  • "After being sentenced Fish confessed to the murder of eight-year-old Francis X. McDonnell, killed on Staten Island." change to "who was killed on Staten Island"
2. Factually accurate?: It appears that there are a lot of sources and inline citations, which is good. If possible, you should add some inline citations to the Paraphilias section.
3. Broad in coverage?: Covers all aspects of his life and crimes, good job here.
4. Neutral point of view?: Appears NPOV, make sure it stays that way.
5. Stability?: Don't see any problems, nor foresee any in the future.
6. Images?: Good source of images, but either add a fair use rationale to Image:Fish9.jpg or change the license (if it's over a hundred years old, use the other license in the first image). Expand on the fair use rationales for the other images if they need them. Three words isn't enough to cover it. Look to similar articles of GA/FA status for examples.
:fixed

Overall, this article will easily return to GA once the above suggetions are fixed. I'll give you up to seven days to fix them, where I will then either pass or fail the article. Let me know on my talk page when you finish fixing these or if you have any questions. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 03:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You can probably add some of the Paraphilias section back into the article if the image supports the information. Don't include anything that is not sourced. Also, break up the headings so the majority of the article doesn't fall under biography. Perhaps don't use biography as a heading, just go straight into early life, and include the early attacks and victims under a single heading that you decide on. You could also split up the trial and execution into a single heading if possible. --Nehrams2020 20:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed as unreferenced per GA review

[edit] Paraphilias

thumb|right|Fish inserted over a dozen needles into his pelvis and perineum According to Frederic Wertham, who examined him for his fitness to stand trial, Fish had many paraphilias. For example, he would insert a long-stemmed rose into his penis and look at himself in the mirror, then he would remove the rose and eat it. His others included sadism and masochism, flagellation, exhibitionism, voyeurism, piquerism, pedophilia, coprophagia, fetishism, urolagnia, and cannibalism. Doctors examining him for his trial found that he drove needles into his body, mostly around his genitals. He said he tried sticking a needle in his scrotum but it was too painful, and there were needles in his pelvis that were permanently embedded. He would stuff cotton balls soaked with lighter fluid into his rectum and set fire to them. Wertham was told many stories, some were confirmed by his family, and by physical evidence; others didn't match any forensic evidence. Wertham found Fish showed violence towards animals at a young age. Fish said that he and a friend soaked a horse's tail in kerosene and set it alight to see the results. He fell from a cherry tree and never fully recovered from the injury. He wet his bed when he was in an orphanage, and was mocked by his companions for this. His penchant for cannibalism, Fish claimed, came from when his elder brother Walter returned from the US Navy and told him stories of cannibalism and sado-masochism which Walter said he witnessed.

[edit] GA passed

I am returning this article back to its GA status after the above suggestions were fixed. Some things that still can be improved is for the images, expand on the fair use rationale. The instructions in the license say to add a detailed fair use rationale, not "Person is dead, lo res, no revenue loss". That shouldn't be too much of a problem to fix. Continue to expand the article by searching any other available sources for information. Keep up the good work, and make sure all new information that is included is well-sourced with inline citations. If you have any questions, please let me know on my talk page. --Nehrams2020 00:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Typo in Billy Gaffney section

Reads "Fish confessed he following:" should be "Fish confessed the following:" with the "T" in "the". Not logged in, and don't care to. :) 75.73.47.55 02:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Poorly sourced material

I have found nothing in any of my research about Albert Fish to show that he started a homosexual relationship, or tried to castrate a mentally disabled partner. If someone can show me a source please do.

In the A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers (2006), Harold Schechter et al slate Colin Wilson for homophobia in his earlier popular work. It does seem to be the case that he was engaged in multiple paraphilias, but he seemed to be incapable of developing a relationship with an adult male. He was clearly a paedophile.

I also seriously question the cited assertion that the telegraph boy whom he established a relationship with 'taught' him sexual practices like coprophagia and urolagnia. These practices were associated with only the most heavy-duty forms of sadomasochism before the onset of HIV/AIDS, primarily because they serve as vectors of disease like STIs. In the nineteenth century, cholera and typhus might also have been risks. If these assertions are from Fish himself, have they been independently authenticated? Sure, he was a paedophile, but homosexuality is a sexual orientation, while paedophilia is a form of mental illness.

Calibanu (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Calibanu

[edit] Early Attacks

"On July 11, 1924 Fish found eight-year-old Beatrice Kiell playing alone on her parents' Staten Island farm. He offered her money to come and help him look for rhubarb in the neighboring fields. She was about to leave the farm when her mother chased Fish away. Fish left, but returned later to the Kiel's barn where he tried to sleep for the night before being discovered by Hans Kiel and told to leave.[7]"

This section is under the heading, "Early Attacks", but it doesn't seem to involve an attack. It also doesn't seem particularly noteworthy. I hesitate to remove it because it is sourced, but perhaps someone (the author?) could explain why this was important, move it, or remove it.

Thanks!--Heyitspeter 09:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IMDB listing of movie credit for alternate source of spelling

Yes, I saw it and annotated it. I don't know which is correct, so both should stay. Who says IMDB is not a reliable source? It seems that the makers of a movie would have done some research. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

No, um, we have this thing called WP:RS... sorry, but we have to follow it. IMDB (user-edited, not scholarly, covering film characters and not history) certainly does not count as a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination. If you want it to stay find a real source. DreamGuy 05:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • IMDB is not user edited. I am reverting again, any source that shows an alternate spelling should be in a footnote. Your deleting a reference then asking for one in the same breath. I don't buy it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Offensive

I'm not sure, but should'nt there be some kind of warning at the top of the page? I came accross it while surfing, starting with Guy Pearce, so it's not like I was looking for sadistic serial killers. I'm not saying the page should be removed of course, but maybe youngsters should get a warning about what's on this page. I'll do it myself, but I'm not sure how and don't want to mess the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.194.176 (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

No... Wikipedia isn't censored and it should be pretty obvious the page isn't going to be a dance in the lily fields with Tinky Winky given the introduction "Albert Hamilton Fish was an American sado-masochistic serial killer and cannibal." Richard001 (talk) 05:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review — kept

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Ruslik 06:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)