Talk:Alba Iulia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Romania This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Romania, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Romania-related topics. Please visit the the Wikipedia:WikiProject Romania if you would like to get involved. Happy editing!
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for Alba Iulia:

No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category
Peer review Alba Iulia has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents

[edit] History

  • As I understand it, it's generally accepted that Alba Iulia is not located on the site of Dacian Apulon. In fact, I've never heard anyone claim that it is. Can someone state an academic reference for that claim? The most accepted location is the Dacian fortification on top of Piatra Craivii. --O crandell 14:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Alba Iulia

  • does Alba Iulia come from Balgrad (White City), or does Alba Iulia come from Apullum, or does Alba Iulia come from Gyula Feher Var (White Citadel/City Gyula) ? is the etymology for Alba Iulia clear or controversial ? -- Criztu 14:51, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, you have a point. I don't think we can say that there is a clear etymology for Alba Iulia. What I know for sure is:

  • Balgrad is a Slavic name comprising white+castle/citadel (not city)
  • Gyulafehervar is a Hungarian name comprising Gyula+white+castle/citadel
  • Alba Iulia is Latin. The word alba is a feminine form of Albus (late latin meaning white) and the word Iulia is a woman's name (sometimes written Julia). But it isn't clear that the name Alba Iulia comes from these words.

What I've read:

  • According to Alba Iulia city hall Website, the first documentary reference to the name Alba Iulia is from a 1276 century source and was then taken over and consequently translated as Bãlgrad or Gyulafehérvár. This latter bit doesn't make sense, so I don't trust the 1276 date without other sources.
  • According to the Website http://www.poli.hu/erdely/varo_gyulaf.htm the name Belgrad - Fehérvár

was inherited from the Byzantine Empire. But it doesn't say anything else, so this can't be trusted without other sources.

What seems speculative:

  • which name came first
  • Balgrad and Gyulafehervar are clearly related, but whether and how Alba Iulia is related to them is not clear
  • the real meaning and origin of Alba Iulia. "White Julia" doesn't make any sense to me.

Scott Moore 17:18, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Alba Iulia means White Julia in romanian, i can think only of Rosia Montana (Red Montana) as a similar "Colour + feminine name/substantive"
Wrong example. Roşia Montană is a name 'translated' from Hungarian. Bogdan | Talk 19:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
hmm.. and you'll keep this hungarian name that was translated into romanian as Rosia Montana only for your knowledge ? :) -- Criztu 19:56, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Verespatak. Yes, it does not has the same meaning as in Romanian, but I read somewhere that it's because the name was translated wrongly. :-) Anyway, "Montană" is a recent Romanian word (the old word would be "Munteană"), so the Romanian name of the settlement probably has its origin in the early 20th century. Bogdan | Talk 11:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
let's see,: hungarian "veres" (read 'veresh') means 'bloody', "voros" (read 'veoreosh') and "piros" (read 'pirosh') mean 'red'; romanian "ros" and "rosu" (read 'rosh' and 'roshu') mean 'red', "singeros" means 'bloody'. could there be any relation between hungarian "piros" and "voros" to romanian "ros" ? -- Criztu 13:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I believe that veres is an archaic form of vörös (meaning red, but tends to be used for darker reds and browny reds whereas piros is used for brighter reds). It still retains the veres form in some surnames. The Hungarian for bloody is véres. Verespatak could mean "bloody stream" but more probably "red stream" (referring to a reddy-brown colour). I'm just basing my guess on the etymology, I don't know anything about the actual place. Scott Moore 16:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No. No relation between Romanian 'rosu' (red; Lat. rosaeus) and Magyar 'piros' (red). What is interesting is that 'piros' is reminiscent of Indo-European 'pur', which meant 'fire', and which I think may be duplicated in 'purpur' (purple). Occasionally, there are correspondances (coincidental or not) between IE words and NonIE words. No relation between 'rosu' and 'voros' either. Also interesting is the resonance between Magyar 'zold' (green) and IE *zald (yellow, golden). Alexander 007 14:50, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, it is believed that the proto-Indo-Europeans and proto-Finno-Ugrians had contacts some thousands of years ago and zold/zald is one of the common words I heard about. The proto-IE had some contacts even with proto-Semits, but that's another story. Bogdan | Talk 19:38, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i'd speculate on Dacian tribe Apulensis from city Apulia(?)/Apoulon(?) at the origin of Alba Iulia, combined with Balgrad (White City(?)), but i lack the necessary argumentation. Apulia was a roman city in Italy, while Apullum (later Municipium Apulensis) was the roman castrum/municipium in Dacia built in place of the dacian city Apoulon. The slavs suposedly named the roman city Apulensis as Balgrad(white city), and later the ciy was called Alba of Gelu (alba=white in romanian), later Alba of Gyula, (Iuliu/Iulian=Julius/Julian in romanian Gyula=Julius/Julian in hungarian) 1 -- Criztu 18:50, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If the Iulia of Alba Iulia is a female name, then it isn't linked to Gyula. The Hungarian form of Iulia/Julia is Júlia. In Hungarian, Gyula is a male name and was only linked to the Latin name Julius at a later date. In the context of Transylvania it seems far more likely that the Gyula in Gyulaféhervár comes from the title/name of the Magyar chieftains. See the article Gyula. Maybe there is a link between Iulia and Gelu. But I don't think Gelu could have become Gyula. If the name Gelu was Magyarised then I believe it would have become a front vowel word rather than a back vowel word like Gyula. Also in Hungarian, the letter 'g' is very different to the letter 'gy'. I assume the 'g' of 'Gelu' is similar to the 'g' in English words such as 'get'. The Hungarian 'gy' has no English equivalent but the nearest sound is the begining of the word 'duke'. Scott Moore 10:34, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In Romanian, "g" in "gelu" is a soft English "gel" or "gin". BTW, what is the etymology of Gelu? If it were from Latin "Julius" it should look "Giuliu" or "Juliu". Bogdan | Talk 19:38, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i think this "Iulia" should be either an adaptation of "Gyula", or an adaptation of "Apulum/Apulia", i'd realy like to know. certainly not from Balgrad. -- Criztu 13:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
yes, i'm acustomed to this "gy" pronounciation that the hungarians are so proud of :) the romanians from Transylvania pronounce Ardeal much like the hungarians would pronounce Argyal -- Criztu 13:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Apulum (now Alba Iulia) came to be known as Chrysopolis, 'the City of Gold' (chrysos=gold) after the Roman conquest (according to references; the Greek name is probably from Greek/Byzantine texts, I'll check). 'Leukos Chrysos' was the specific term for 'white gold'. Chrysopolis, 'the Golden city' (Orasul de Aur), is highly suggestive of 'the White city' (golden, radiant, brilliant, shining, white), so much so that the idea behind 'Alba Iulia', 'Gyulaferhevar', and 'Balgrad' quite likely goes back to the Daco-Romans. The apparently newer element is the 'Iulia/Gyula' element. There seem to be a lot of extraordinary "coincidences" in this Alba Iulia mystery. Alexander 007 04:50, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alba Regia, Alba Civitas

oc, dispute means progress :) -- Criztu 16:38, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Székesfehérvár, known as Alba Regia in the Middle Ages Alba Regia was formed in the nineth century during the rule of grand duke Géza Alba Civitas. - here 1

But it was Geza's son, King Stephen I, who raised the status of Szekesfehervar by building a fortified basilica in what he called Alba Regia. - here 2

This reference states: "In fact, the city's seemingly unpronounceable name (sake-kesh-fehair-vahr) means 'Seat of the White Castle,' as it was the royal capital and white was the king's colour." So, I still contend that Gyulafehervár means "White Castle of Gyula". The genitive is more speculative, but Gyula White Castle is meaningless if Gyula was a personal name. Scott Moore 10:35, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

magyar dictionary says: var - citadel, fortress, (kastely) castle

And which dictionary is this? I presume you mean a Magyar-Angol dictionary? If it was the Országh László's dictionary then it is quite possible that it is incorrect (I've found numerous examples of inaccurate translations). The etymological dictionary stated that vár meant and still means:
  • erődítmény - ie. a fortress, fortification, stronghold
  • megerősített hely - ie fortified place, location
Fellegvár can be translated as citadel, and várkastely as castle. But note that castle in English has different meanings. Várkastely would be used to describe e.g Windsor Castle which is a residence in the form of a castle, and not primarily a fortified building. However, Gödöllői Királyi Kastély [1] is translated as the Royal Palace of Gödöllő. Scott Moore 10:35, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

„Stephanus rex Ungaricus super avunculum suum regem Iulum cum exercitu venit; quem cum comprehendisset cum uxore et filiis duobus, regnum eius vi ad christianitatem compulit” (Gombos A. F., Catalogus Fontium Historiae Hungaricae. Bp., 1937—38. 1: 141). „István magyar király sereggel ment anyai nagybátyja, Gyula király ellen; ... - here 3

i read the german version of Alba Regia (Fehervar) was Weissenburg (White City)

  • No, burg means castle. Remember that many towns were based around castles. Often the castle came first and only then did a large settlement develop, sometimes named after the castle (e.g Newcastle in England, Hamburg - originally Hammaburg - in Germany). These settlements may now be cities, but that was not the original meaning of the vár/burg/castle element in the name. Scott Moore 10:51, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

and there are the towns/cities/citadels of Kapos-Var, Kolozs-Var (Cluj in romanian), Seges-Var (Schäßburg in german)

Well, lets take the example of Kaposvár. This town was called Capos (Kapos) in the deed of foundation. It only took the name of Kaposvár after the construction of a fortress in the 13th century. Scott Moore 10:51, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

so, the hungarians translated the latin Alba Regia as SzekesFeherVar, szek=chair('scaun' in romanian), szekes=where the chair/throne is('de scaun' in romanian)

so, Gyula Fehervar doesn't mean "White Castle of Gyula" no matter how appealing, but "Gyula White City/Citadel" and a connection to Alba Regia of Stephen I and Geza's documents is probable. so, Gyula Fehervar doesn't mean "White Castle of Gyula" no matter how appealing, but "Gyula White Citadel" and a connection to Alba Regia of Stephen I and Geza's documents is probable

...aaand, Iulum is translated as Gyula by hungarians, i ain't sure if Iulum was a late latin form of clasical Julius, it would be interesting to find out when did italian Giulio surfaced, and if King of Hungary, the venetian Peter Urseolo had any "italian" predecesor in the region, with the name Giulio, that got translated as Gelou, or Geula, or however, in the hungarian chronicles -- Criztu 16:38, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Italian 'Giulio' is interchangeable with 'Julius' in Italian: see 'Giulio Cesare' for Julius Ceasar. I assume that 'guilio' is from Latin 'julius'. The interchange of 'Julius' for 'Gyula' may date back many centuries, and would not be a "recent" practice at all. Alexander 007 17:11, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Indo-European root

The same Indo-European root lies behind alba "white" (Latin, not Late Latin) and mountain "Alps". Accounting for mountainous Albania, for Albion, or Alba Longa. There are Dinaric Alps not directly connected with Swiss ones, and an "Albania" in the Caucasus. The "alba" of Alba Julia refers to the mountains, not necessarily white limestone or snow. Folk etymology easily translates an original "Mount Julia" to the more obvious reading in Latin, "White Julia". The translations follow the folk etymology. Thus "Alba Julia" precedes the other vernacular usages embodying "white". --Wetman 17:04, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The mountain connection sounds plausible, and it should be looked into. The confusion is easy, considering that Alb is also the everyday word for 'white' in Romanian. Leaving aside Alba Iulia, and generally speaking, the 'white' meaning might be older than the 'mountain' meaning, and the progress may have been white snow-capped mountains-> mountains in general, a mountain. Alexander 007 17:15, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

isn't albho- an IE root meaning white ? 1 -- Criztu 17:33, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is defined as 'white', that's why I say 'white' is in general the older meaning, as in Latin 'alba' (white) and Greek 'alphos' (dull-white). So I guess you could conceivably translate 'Alba Iulia' as 'White Mount Iulia', if you wanted to, in addition to 'White Iulia' and 'Mount Iulia'. The state of the evidence being as it is, we should put 'White Iulia', 'Mount Iulia', and 'White Mount Iulia' on the card table. The 'White Iulia' option still looks good to me. 'Alba' in Latin meant not only 'white', but could also mean 'bright'. I'm looking for a Greek text where 'chrysos' (usually meant 'gold', 'golden') also meant 'bright, radiant', which would definitely link the name Chrysopolis to the name Alba Iulia.

Another thing that is quite interesting is the Apulum factor: there are indications that Apulum was a center of Dacian sun-worship, and 'apulum', 'apoulon' is connected by many to 'Apollo', the sun-god. The disc of the sun was sometimes called 'Chryseo-Kyklos', the 'golden disk', in Greek. That brings us to Chrysopolis---which brings us to Alba Iulia. Intriguing. Alexander 007 18:20, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

any chance that the three Cris/Koros rivers springing from Gilau/Gyalu mountain in Transylvania, Romania, to be related to this Chryseo ? -- Criztu 19:41, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It should be looked into, just in case. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Daco-Romans called the city 'Chrysopolis' themselves, or whether this was an exonym used by Byzantine Greeks, that being how they called the city: in which case, the Byzantines may have translated the Daco-Roman name. This one website makes it seem as if the Daco-Romans called it Chrysopolis: [2] but I find it hard to beleive that Daco-Romans would use such a Greek name. I fixed the link. The site is not necessarily totally reliable. It was most likely an exonym, an exonym of course based on the native name.

Fascinating: the Roman name Julius is derived from the PIE root *deiw-, 'to shine', from which comes 'dies' (day) and 'deus' (divinity), and the 'Ju' in Jupiter. Both 'alba' and 'iulia' can thus in a sense mean 'bright' (though this is probably a strange coincidence). In a much more immediate sense, Julius is defined as having meant "descended from Ju", that is to say, descended from Jupiter. Since claiming descent from Jupiter was common among nobility, one can see why the name Julius was popular, and names derived from Julius were also popular among nobility, if you get my drift. 'Julius', or names derived from, would have been popular among the early Vlach nobility, the Vlach rulers of the Dark Ages, and from them the names would have spread to other peoples. Within the context of Latin to Romanian sound-changes, I don't think 'julius' would have changed to 'gelu', so if they are connected it may have been via intermediaries. The 'iulia/gyula' element seems to be a new element (foreign influx, perhaps), while the 'alba' element has suggestive precedents. Alexander 007 18:33, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alba Iulia, Alba Longa

According to Roman tradition Alba Longa in Italy was founded by a figure named Iulius (Iulius>>>Alba Iulia). Interesting. 007 01:54, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

fascinating, do you have any links about that 007 ? .. i'm going to google for that, but if you have one already, share it to me -- Criztu 28 June 2005 18:43 (UTC)

My source was Vergil's Aeneid. See User talk:Criztu. Alexander 007 29 June 2005 02:10 (UTC)

[edit] lines rmvd

a Byzantine source from the mid-10th century mentions Gyula, a chieftain from Transylvania, who was baptised in Constantinople. On his return he brought a Greek missionary monk named Hierotheus, who had been ordained as bishop of the diocese of Turkia (Hungary), and built a church in the city. -removed until evidence offered for scuh deeds by a Gyula in Alba Iulia -- Criztu 28 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)

In 1541, Gyulafehérvár ("White Castle of Gyula") became the capital of the principality of Transylvania - i'm not sure, but it is possible that the name to have been Karlsbirg by that time, so until evidence of the exact name of Alba Iulia in 1541 i rmvd it -- Criztu 28 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)

a reference to the "White castle of Geula" in Gesta Hungarorum -- i think it was refered to as Alba, hmm... -- Criztu 28 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)

[edit] Alba Bulgarica

There were a 3rd White Castle: Alba Bulgarica (In Hungarian Nandorfehervar), the modern Belgrade.

nandor= bulgarian feher var = white castle

[edit] Wine

Why is this article part of the Wine project? Is the city in a wine producing region? If it is, then surely this fact should be mentioned in the article. As it stands at the moment there is no mention of wine at all! --BodegasAmbite 08:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Due to the important meeting of AREV: In September 2007 a meeting of the AREV took place in Alba Iulia, in order to comment and refuse the EU Commissions reform project on Wine CMO. The present measures in the current CMO aiming to control surpluses are not reaching their objectives yet and are the cause of structural problems on the European wine market. AREV wellcomes the Commission’s intention to reform the distillation measures in the south of Europe. [2] --Symposiarch 15:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Wine Project - a one-off meeting doesn't really justify the tagging. Far better to write an article about AREV and add that to the Wine Project - which is what I've done. It's only fairly short, but at least it will tell people what AREV is all about. FlagSteward (talk) 12:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)