Talk:Al-Abbas ibn Ali

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He was the example of the valiant and brave soldier whose name will live forever. God has made this a promise by surrounding his grave with water and that water will never go away. Our 12th imam AS also has said that " My salaam on him, whose both arms were cut off while fetching water for the thirsty." This shows the great status of Mola Abbas. Ghazi Abbas is the statue of Faithfulness and on the judgement day God will judge all the martyrs of war to his doings for Imam Hussain AS and his family.

May Mola Abbass' name live on forever and may allah bless me enough to view his face after my Death (inshallah I will see him as soon as he dies).

Contents

[edit] Family

The information about the family of Hazrat Abbas is wrong. Who ever wrote the family section of Hazrat abbas’ article got confused between Hazrat Abbas (brother of Imam Hussain) and Abbas ibn Abd-al-Muttalib (The uncle of Prophet Muhammad). So I am going to delete that section and try my best to find out the right information about the family of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali Talib.

[edit] Family

Hey there is no confusion in writing about the family of Hazrat Abbas. I think you are not aware of that but i have books to prove what i have mentioned. i am also writing some more details..

so please dont remove that..

Zaidi 18:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

CoverPage of the Book Zikr-ul Abbas
CoverPage of the Book Zikr-ul Abbas

As far as books are concerned try reading this. "Zikr-ul Abbas" by Moulana Syed Najam-ul Hasan (Language Urdu, Farsi)


Zaidi 18:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC) (Ghulam-e Abbas)

Thanks for giving the title of the book. Waqas Bhia. Now i can read it too! Salman

[edit] Why is this article tagged for "complete rewrite" and "neutrality"?

Please don’t just tag the article with “complete rewrite and neutrality” tags before you discuss the issue on the talk page. The tag say that for more information on why this article is tagged (complete rewrite and neutrality) see the talk page but their in nothing on the talk page that finalizes that this article is not neutrality and because of that it should be rewritten. This article is neutral because it is not using SAW, AS, or Imam. Like I said in the above paragraph that all branches of Islam respect and love Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib because of his love and affection toward the holy house of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. Please provide proof before actually tagging the article. Thank You Salman

[edit] Article is pure Shi'a hagiography

The article uses religious honorifics. The article is written from a Shi'a Muslim POV and assumes the truth of the Shi'a faith. No references are given for ANYTHING. It is not encyclopedic in any way. I just haven't had time to rewrite it. Salman, either rewrite it in sober fashion, or wait until I do it -- within a week, if I can. DO NOT REMOVE THE TAGS. That is against the rules. Zora 01:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Zora thanks for your interest in the article of the family members of our Prophet Hazrat Mohammed SAW. You can not delete anything since you provide an example form the article that proves that the article is written from a Shi’a POV and as far as the tags are concerned I am going to let them stay there but you will have to provide us some sentences from the article that shows that the article is written from the Shi’a POV. Shi’as would not just say anything about their prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW and the members of his household. So you can not delete anything from the article unless you provide a sentence from the article that shows that the article is written from the Shi’a POV. I mean you can not just say something you have read in a book, because there are some things that will never be going to be written because of so issues, but those things are real and did happen. Thank You Salman

Salman, you're suggestng that your article is based on 1300 years of oral tradition? And known only by you? That's simply not credible. It seems to be based on some Shi'a text. As for the Shi'a bias -- just look at this sentence:

Hazrat Abbas was also known by the names Abu al-Fadl Abbas, Abul Qasim, Abu Qurba, Sultan of Loyalty, Moon of the Hashemites, Strength of Hussain, Alamdar (Flag Bearer of Islam), Saqqa (Who Fetches Water), Afza sh-Shuada (Most Superior Martyr), last but not the least Babul Hawa’ij (the door to fulfilling needs)

No non-Muslims would give him those honorific titles. No Sunni would call him by those names. Those are Shi'a praise names, Salman, and they don't belong in the encyclopedia except in a section clearly marked "Shi'a POV". Zora 03:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay Zora, but before you write something about Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) first you will have to tell us (the Shi’as) what are you going to write about him. Because as far as I know Shi’as and Sunnis respect Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) because of his knowledge, respect, and love toward the Islamic Prophet Mohammad SAW and his holy household. Thank You Salman
Salman, there is no accountability to any specific group here. What about non-Muslims? This isn't Muslimpedia. As for those names, some of them aren't even Arabic - Alamdar is Persian. And the fact that you refer to a person as Hazrat X (AS) is proof enough of bias! em zilch 14:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
But I didn't say Hazrat is the article I am saying Hazrat in the talk page. I don’t even say (AS) or (SAW) after the name of my Prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW in the article that I write or edit in wikipedia. As far as the titles of Hazrat Abbas (AS) are concerned than readers should also know they title that Hazrat Abbas as earned thought his bravery and courage. I am saying that I tried my best to keep the article neutral, instead of say Hazrat Abbas (AS), I said Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib (even thought I don’t feel comfortable saying their name without saying AS after their name), for the sake of being neutral. Hazrat Abbas (AS) is a Shi’a himself and no one knows him better then the Shi’a. All of the braches of Islam respect Hazrat Abbas (AS) because he was loyal to the holy household of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. But anyways, you will have to tell us what you r going to write about Hazrat Abbas (AS) after reading those books that you have. And Hazrat is a common word in Urdu; it is equivalent to Sir in English. In Urdu a man refers to another man as Hazrat. I mean just because I put Hazrat in front of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib does not mean that whatever is being states is being stated from a Shi’a POV. Thank You Salman
Reading this talk page means that Shia's are not allowed to edit any article. Do shias don't have any right to express their opinion in this Encyclopedia (subject to the condition that it is incorrect infront of some other larger sect) . I think an encyclopedia is an information bank where there is load of information and does not pertain to limited resources. what ever is explained in this article Abbas_ibn_Ali refers shia thinking !! but is fact infront of them (millions of shia people). so i dont think so that parts of this article should be deleted because of that above reason. Also some other's POV will be appreciated and that will be considered as an added info but please please dont remove any existing info present. please have a discussion on this talk page for the info you think is wrong and we will provide you the reason. i am updating the titles section regarding your concern. so have a look and see that if it proper now.. Zaidi 20:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article is Shi'a-POV

The article as it stands is pure Shi'a hagiography. It uses Shi'a titles and praises Abbas for his devotion to Ali. We need to give a neutral presentation of facts accepted by all parties (academic historian, Sunni, and Shi'a) and then give the POVs of each of the parties. Zora 18:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, it must be completely rewritten from scratch using reliable sources and wikipedic language. Pecher Talk 22:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"It uses Shi'a titles and praises Abbas for his devotion to Ali", correct your sources Hazrat Abbas AS was the son of Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and was the younger brother of Imam Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and he was loved by Imam Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and his household. And Zora what Shi'as title are you talking about, please give examples from the article. As far as the POV of Muslims is concerned, all branches of Islam respect Hazrat Abbas because of his bravery, courage, and his respect toward the holy household of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. Salman

Adding AS is not acceptable from a neutral point of view, and beside the fact, adding it after Abbas and others is a Shia idea. Sunnis and Ibadis have reserved AS for porphets only. --xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 08:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

The page looks much better but there is still work to do. The 2 main issues seem to be the use of 'hazrat' and citing the various stories/tradition. Why don't we keep 'hazrat' to show the devotion of shias but link it to new article where we explain the use of the word hazrat and bibi and like titles. Salman, bro, the traditions and stories are fine but they must have citations. Zora, the problem with shia bias is that most (maybe all) biographies of this personality are by shia historians or scholars. So i think the stories are fine but must be cited. --Aliasad 07:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think keeping 'hazrat' to show the Shia's devotion is necessary...the entire article shows that, this one word makes little difference in light of it. Nevertheless, this isn't meant to be a "Shia" encyclopedia, and hazrat certainly doesn't belong. It could be mentioned perhaps somewhere that Shias add 'hazrat' before naming members of Ahl al-Bayt, but it's persistant use is against Wikipedia's article standards. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. --xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 08:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


Well i have removed the word Hazrat from this article. Mainly because of the reason that the word Hazrat is an Urdu/Farsi word which is not suitable in English Wikipedia. I do understand that this change was necessary but completely disagree on writing of this artcle from scratch. i will make more changes (explaining citations etc) on this artcle written by me so that our's Shia POV is differentiated. For any kind of other comments please use this discussion page. Regards Zaidi 07:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the title 'Imam' and made some other small changes. Zaidi's right, we need to add citations to verify the accuracy of the whole article. Will continue working on it... --aliasad 19:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Brother Ali, why did you remove the references that I added in the article of Hazrat Abbas (AS)? It took me a long time to actually find some articles written by scholars that back up what is being said in the paragraphs that were asked to be cited. Can you please explain you action to me and other wikipedian. Thank you--Salman 01:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Salman, I checked out each one of your sources. Most of them were not relevant to what was being referenced. For example, the reference you put for the 'why abbas is known as ghazi' section, had no mention of why he is called ghazi or what the word means. Similarly, for 'harsh attitude of body','shrine' and other sections, the sources referenced did not back up any part of those sections. The references were just not applicable. Also, the 'why abbas is known as ghazi section' doesn't really seem to deserve its own section. It could be dropped to 'honorific titles' or somewhere else. Finally, most of the article needs to be rewritten in encyclopedic language. This rewrite cannot be done without first having the original sources and references. --aliasad 08:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
No Ghazi in Arabic means a soldier that comes back alive from a battle. And as far as the sources are concerned I am going to pin out the sentences that back up what is being said in the article of Hazrat Abbas (AS). Okay brother i just added some references so please don't delete them without discuss the issue on the talk page first. If you think that the sources do not back up with the paragraph in the article of Hazrat Abbas (AS) is say then talk to me and I will be more then happy to pin it out for you. BUT DON’T DELETE ANTYHING WITHOUT DICUSSING THE MATTER ON THE TALK PAGE. Thank You--Salman 17:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Added cite tags for the ezsoft reference (trying to keep the formatting the same). Please point out to me the page number where the presentation of the 'Hussaini Flag' is in The Kerbala e-book. The 'digging of the well' section cites specifics which are not mentioned in the source. For example, The article says that enemy soldiers threw stones into the well whereas the source says that the there was no water to begin with (pg 42). Please point out to me where the story in the 'abbas, qasim, ali abkbar' section is in the ebook. Remember, when you quote a source with quotation marks you are supposed to be copying text from the source exactly how it is. The ebook is pretty nice. --aliasad 17:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The well that the Yazidy force was throwing rocks in was dug by none other then Hazrat Abbas (AS) himself. There are many scholars that say that when the water in the camps of Imam Hussain (AS) was finished and when the water supply was stooped, then Imam Hussain (AS) told Hazrat Abbas (AS) as well as other men from his army to try to dig a well, but unfortunately where ever they dug huge stone were appearing. You can also read about it in the e-book I placed as a reference on the article of Hazrat Abbas (AS) (Water supply to Imam Hussain’s camp cut off, pages 30 and 35 from the e-book). If you have more doubts please don’t hesitate to ask because I am sure that each and every single Shi’a that is writing or editing article(s) at wikipedia is not just saying things that aren’t backed up by Shi’a History and what Shi’a believe. Thank You--Salman 20:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Trust is not the issue. If you write something, it must be backed up accurately by the sources that are cited. About getting water, the e-book says:
Abbas the Standard Bearer, had already come to receive the nickname ‘Saqqa’ (water carrier), as earlier, on one or two occasions, at nights he had been able to pass through the enemy’s ranks to fetch water for the children. It was not the case that they had not drunk any water for three days and nights. Access to water had been closed for three days and nights, but during this time they had been able to get some water on one or two occasions, including the night of ‘Ashura’, when they had taken bath and washed their bodies. (pg 30/31)
It does not say anywhere that;
  • There were 22 people who helped dig the well.
  • The Hussaini Flag was presented.
  • Yazid's soldiers threw stones into the well (I've also read that the well dried up).
  • The entire 'abbas, qasim, ali akbar' section has no basis in the e-book source cited.
Please cite sources that apply. Perhaps it would be better to delete the sections that aren't cited and rewrite them when a source is found. I will continue working on this, and finding sources to help me improve the article. --aliasad 14:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Brother aliasad, I know that you are, just like many other Muslims, trying your best to create perfect articles about Islam and Islamic individuals. Did you see the page number 35 from the e-book; it’s a map and please read what the legend of the map has to say about the well. I am reverting each and every single reference (that I added) you deleted because this dispute is not over yet. Thank YouSalman 03:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The legend key only points to a well "dug by Abbas the Standard Bearer" - there is no mention of any other details that are in the sections of the article that cites this source. Also, none of the details I mentioned above are cited in the source. Your reversion deleted a good source that does have some details.[1] The e-book does not have any of the details above that I brought to your attention. The source can be kept, but more sources are needed to verify the details. Uncited details cannot be left for long. Please don't revert so quickly, see Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes. --aliasad 15:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Brother aliasad, if the book says that Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) dug a well then who are you to disagree with it. Before a book is published, it has to go through many processes, where the publishers demand reverences about the things that are written in the book. If the author of this book couldn't provide the sources that say that Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) dug the well, then he wouldn't be allowed to say that in his book. At least the book says that the well was dug by Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS), but else do you want. Thank YouSalman 15:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
At no point have I questioned the fact that this person dug the well. What is required are accurate sources relevant to the details discussed in the article. I repeat:
It does not say anywhere that;
  • There were 22 people who helped dig the well.
  • The Hussaini Flag was presented.
  • Yazid's soldiers threw stones into the well (I've also read that the well dried up).
  • The 'abbas, qasim, ali akbar' section has content not present the e-book source cited.
These are the details that need to be backed up by sources. Please refrain from making this issue a personal one. We are both trying to improve this article. --aliasad 16:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have edited some reference. Ali there are no digital copies of Shite books available. The available books are in farsi or arabic language. but it does not mean that we dont have any history. we are having loads of text books. these text books are really a great source of education for us. so most of the article is translated after reading these authentic books in front of us. as far as question are concerned i have mentioned some reference. consider the book pictuted just above. this is a great source for info realted with Abbas and this book is verified by top shia leaders. i can even name the 22 persons which you asked above reading this book. even all your four queries can be answered through this and other various books. Zaidi 19:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Thats fine. This isn't personal or anything. Its just that a person can't write things in the article, and then when asked for the sources say: trust me. This is an encyclopedia. Please find a source for the 'abbas, qasim, ali akbar' section. --aliasad 21:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Yo aliasad, now you are not making any sense to me. What are you talking about? I gave u that book which illustrates the well that was dug by Hazrat Abbas (AS). Now I don’t know what else you want. I told you that a book can not just be written like the way we write articles on wikipedia.org. In order to get the book published, the author has to give references and sources about the things is said in his book to the publisher, so the publisher can publish the book. I don’t know why you are not willing to accept the fact that Hazrat Abbas (AS) dug a well during the time of the battle of Karbala. And please don’t delete any of the references that I am adding and if you delete my references once more, I am going to let an administrator because you can not keep on deleting the references I am adding since the dispute is not over yet. You didn’t many times before but don’t do it again because we are still arguing about the matter and let other wikipedians take part in this dispute. Thank You Salman 21:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


As I said above "At no point have I questioned the fact that this person dug the well". Please read through what I write carefully. I have kept your ebook source. However, it does not back up many of the details in the article. Thankfully, Zaidi has provided a source which backs up some of the details mentioned in the article but its not in english. I don't think bringing in an admin would be in anyone's best interest - but if thats what you really want... --aliasad 22:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Sakina binte Husayn' Section

Salman, I did not delete the 'sakina' section. I only put the 'sakina' section into the 'fight and martydom' section to make the article easier to follow and more readable. The article would be more readable and easier to follow (for those not familiar) if the 'Sakina binte Husayn' section was merged into the 'Fight and Martydom' section. Salman, please don't make it hard to continue improving the article. You don't own this article, and every change does not need to be okayed by you. I did not add an unreferenced source. I only reorganized and edited the article for language. Accepting or rejecting my changes needs to be done by a concensus - not by you deciding its better to keep the article the way it is because you wrote it. Try to work with my changes instead of reverting them. See Dispute Resolution. This discussion is not a dispute, but every edit I make seems to be grounds to dispute for you. Oh, and your continued reverting of my changes makes it hard to improve the language of the article which needs a lot of improvement. --aliasad 12:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes but in future can you please mention it on the talk page, just so other wikipedians know what's going on in the article. Thank You Salman 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
i think that merging this section with later one is not justice. cos this topic, if explained, is so long that can be considered as a seperate article. however an intro must be present in this article. the reason is that karbala's story revolves much around this section. any way i will be adding more data related with it. please check some more references added. as far as alisad's concern about the language of the book mentioned. so bro translations of these authentic books into English, French, Urdu languages are available easily. Regards Zaidi 19:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The concern is about the accurately representing the relationship between 2 personalities. However, this article is only about one of those personalities. For the readability, and flow, of the article, there need not be a seperate 'sakina binte husayn' section. This article does not get better when 3 sentence sections are added - I have removed 'persons killed by abbas' and added some of the content to another section. Try and fit new info into the existing sections. The article need only give a basic summary as to who this personality was so as to inform the uninformed. Most of the references added recently have been in a foreign language. If there translations of these books that are cited, then it is the english version of those books that must be cited.aliasad 18:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is STILL Shi'a hagiography

The article reads as if it came from a Shi'a website -- in fact, if I looked, I'll bet I'd find it did come from a Shi'a website. It is a gross embarrassment to WP. Unfortunately, there's only one of me and I'm short of time. Someone PLEASE help by cutting the article down to what you'd find, say, in the Encylopedia of Islam, 2nd edition. Zora 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Zora as far as article is concerned its purely written by me and edited by many. find it on the world wide web if you can. as far encyclopedia of islam is concerned then this is not authentic in front of many sects. Zaidi 04:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)