Talk:Akebono Tarō

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 Akebono Tarō was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: July 14, 2007

Contents

[edit] Ethnicity

Is Akebono ethnically native Hawaiian, or is he a nisei or sansei of Japanese descent? Is he really the first non-Japanese sumo wrestler, or is he only labeled as that because as a nisei/sansei he's not regarded as truly Japanese? LordAmeth 22:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this a common speculation? I've not seen his ethnicity questioned before. Lainagier 23:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

akebono does not have one drop of ethnic japanese blood in him. he's hawaiian, irish and cuban.

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 07:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I've tagged the article unreferenced - I'd really like to see some verifiable sources. For example, the events in the "Marital turmoil" section are contradicted as fiction in Mark Panek's Gaijin Yokozuna. Not that Panek is necessarily gospel, but the contexts necessary to judge such claims are missing here. Lainagier 23:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I can see at least two places where this section is inacurrate. First, the last line that states that Akebono is American. Of course, he took Japanese citizenship because of his association with sumo. And, two, I saw his wife's face many times on Japanese TV in the run up to his first K-1 fight. Of course, that is not sourced research, but neither is this seciton. I will remove this section. XinJeisan 00:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also what is the deal with the mention of a restaurant opened in his wife's name? There are no reliable references for this. I think this is just gossip column fodder.

[edit] Rating

Those wondering why this article is rated "B" in both biography & sumo but "Start" in wrestling - the rating only pertains to the wrestling section and that could use some work to meet project: Pro Wrestling's standardsMPJ-DK 11:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking

Questionable facts should be tagged or excised, but removing 75% of the article is not justifiable — WP:A is not even a policy yet. Jpatokal 03:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree with that! I'll be adding a couple of links that may be used as sources.... and make a couple of minor changes.--Endroit 05:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I added some more links as well. I think it is safe to say that this article should be fairly uncontroversial in its present state. XinJeisan 10:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
While the status of WP:A is still progressing Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons are very firm policies. Do not restore unsourced content about living people under any circumstances please. Thank you, RFerreira 18:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
By reverting to the pont where you did, you also removed sources that people had looked up and posted. I think you should take the time and reinstert those sources as opposed to just blanking articles without thinking. XinJeisan 18:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

This is from. Wikipedia:Verifiability This page in a nutshell: Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed. While I understand the need for verifiability, and perhaps I don't understand Wikipedia policy, but the gosspy sections of the article had already been removed, and what was left was basically a description of his career that could be found anywhere, none of it seems particularly challengable. Perhaps the definition of challengable is the problem. Just looking at King George III, a lot of sentences there have footnotes, but many of them do not. Why isn't that page challenged? And, on the Akebono page There is still a lot of unsourced material left on the page, so, I am not sure why some things are left on this page, and other things are deemed to be unsourced. Either the whole page should be blanked save for one sentence and started from scratch, or the page returned to its previous state. This should be explained further since obviously there is disagreement on this talk page as to what is going on. XinJeisan 19:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

When a page is contested, it's good to prove sources directly in the text for any information you add. You can't compare article to article; it'll drive you crazy. All articles should be sourced, within the article. That's the goal. Every sentence doesn't require a footnote, but if you are adding material that you know is controversial, it's especially important to provide citations. People need the opportunity to evaluate the source as well as the statements. I appreciate your frustration, but it isn't enough to say sources exist; you have to link the sources to the statements. It's easy enough to recover the material though page history and add the sources. -Jmh123 19:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it is just the growing pains of wikipedia, but someone needs to ask what statements need direct links to sources and what statements do not. Otherwise, every sentence would have at least one if not more footnotes. If that is the goal then that is the goal, but then a lot of wikipeida will have to be blanked. anyways, i will add references and sources when i can to this article. Akebono is too important a person to have the article be left blank.XinJeisan 20:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the sections that deal with his sumo career, as Akebono is primarily known as a sumo wrestler and the article is much the poorer (if fact, close to useless) without them. Rather than just starting from scratch, can we not just add sources instead of continually blanking the article? There is nothing controversial or libellous here. I will do my best to add sources over the next few days.Pawnkingthree 20:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I restored the sumo record chart and sourced it. -Jmh123 20:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
About your "great rivals" edit, XinJiezan. Perhaps Wakanohana never won a tournament after his promotion, but the rivalry of the three Yokuzunas--two brothers with a stablemaster as father--and one foreigner, the first to make Yokozuna, was the stuff of great TV in Japan at the time. It's true that only Takanohana was any serious competition as a fighter. -Jmh123 20:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The sentence seemed to state they became great rivals as Yokozuna, but, their rivarly stems from what you mentioned. I guess if you can find a source that says they were great rivals as yokozuna, we can put it in. :) I was only in Japan in the late 90s, a bit past everyone's prime. But, those three really dominated sumo in the mid 90s, and led to its revival. Maybe there should be another section on it in the article. XinJeisan 20:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess my comment note didn't get caught--I was just making conversation, not questioning your edit. I think the domination of the three is more properly material for another article--sumo perhaps? Were you there when Musashimaru was promoted. I just missed that. -Jmh123 21:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real Name

[Akebono]'s real name is in fact Akebono. He changed his name to Akebono when he became a Japanese citizen. But, the info box still has his real name as Chad Rowan. Musashimaru's page reflects a similar problem. I am just going to change the real name to Akebono and Musashimaru, and add the birth name for their birth names. if someone has a better way to show this, please change it. XinJeisan 16:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pro wrestling

Why has anything mentioning his pro wrestling career been removed? I fins this rather stupid as he has been a high profile star in Puroresu overt the past 2 years.

We need citations from reliable sources. That section as written previously was rather gossipy and unencyclopedic. -Jmh123 20:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
ergo, the reason why it was removed is that some Akebono fans and handlers don't want to focus on the downside of his career (aka his K-1/Puro jump), even though it is extensive. That's why they blanked it rather than do some legwork and get the info, which can be easily sourced...especially his losing streak and the "Makebono" moniker. They'll also hide behind WP loopholes in order for it not to be posted, even though it is true.

[edit] Handlers on the page

The shifting, spinning, and deleting any information on his K-1 career just because it is mostly bad is borderline vandalism and damages the neutrality of the article. Especially the part where someone had the audacity to call one of the biggest and most reputable newspapers in Japan, The Daily Mainichi, a "tabloid" just because they made light of the "Makebono" nickname Japanese sports fans have given Akebono. "Widely referred to" as the news article mentioned does not mean "Only detractors". You can't discredit the source, so you decide to smear the source. Don't minimize or hide the truth just because you are a fan.Neoyamaneko 06:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is from the Wai Wai pages of that website. It is a translation from a tabloid Shukan Taisho, so it is not from the Mainichi. Here is a quote from the end of the article itself:

WaiWai stories are transcriptions of articles that originally appeared in Japanese language publications. The Mainichi Daily News cannot be held responsible for the contents of the original articles, nor does it guarantee their accuracy. Views expressed in the WaiWai column are not necessarily those held by the Mainichi Daily News or Mainichi Newspapers Co. So the Mainichi itself discounts the credibility of the source in its own translation. A comment on Wikipedia Japan calls it just something from 2-channel [[1]]. If you look up makebono on google japan, you only come up with the name on blogs and such. That does not meet the standards of WP:BLP. I am not a fan, but trying to make a good article, that is all. Please assume good faith. XinJeisan 07:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last edit

[edit] Post-retirement career

This is the last edit before Neoyamaneko reinsterted his old edit.


After winning his eleventh top division title in November 2000,[1] he suffered another injury and, after sitting out the tournament in January 2001, he decided to retire rather than face a daunting struggle back to fighting fitness. After his retirement he became a member (or elder) of the Japan Sumo Association as a coach, or oyakata, and worked with his former mentor in the Azumazeki stable.[2]

While an oyakata, Akebono also appeared in TV commercials[3] and opened a restaurant called ZUNA[4].

Akebono left the Sumo Association in 2003 to join K-1.[5] The decision was influenced by financial problems due to the failure of his restaurant, among other financial difficulties. K-1 offered him a chance to clear his debts by fighting for them. [6]

He has managed only one win in 12 bouts in K-1 and mixed martial arts career. Tabloids and detractors have used the nickname Makebono (make meaning "lose" in Japanese) [7]

He has also wrestled professionally in Japan for All Japan Pro Wrestling and New Japan Pro Wrestling[7] and made an appearance at World Wrestling Entertainment's (WWE) WrestleMania 21 in a sumo match against the Big Show.[8]

This is Neoyamaneko's edit of the same section.

[edit] Retirement from sumo

After winning his eleventh top division title in November 2000,[9] he suffered another injury and, after sitting out the tournament in January 2001, he decided to retire rather than face a daunting struggle back to fighting fitness. After his retirement he became a member (or elder) of the Japan Sumo Association as a coach, or oyakata, and worked with his former mentor in the Azumazeki stable.[10]

While an oyakata, Akebono also appeared in TV commericals[11] and opened a restaurant called ZUNA[12].

[edit] Transition from Sumo to K-1

Akebono left the Sumo Association in 2003 to join K-1.[13] The decision was influenced by financial problems due to the failure of his restaurant, among other financial difficulties. K-1 offered him a chance to clear his debts by fighting for them. [14] This decision was considered a "betrayal" by his stablemaster, Azumaseki, as well as the Japan Sumo Association.

His career in K-1 was not nearly as impressive as his sumo career as he was only able to manage one win in twelve bouts, even losing to comedian Bobby Ologun. He had become so synonymous with losing in his K-1/MMA career that he became known to Japanese fans as "Makebono" (マケボノ), a play off of his name and the Japanese word "make" (負け), which means "to lose".

In order to become more competitve in K-1, he was told to drop weight. In the interim, he joined New Japan Pro Wrestling and found a niche in their program as he was able to move with more confidence and comfort. [15] He even wrestled a title bout against then IWGP champion Brock Lesnar. Akebono lost the bout, but Lesnar was very congratulatory towards his effort and ability. In April 2005 Akebono made a special appearance at WWE WrestleMania 21 defeating The Big Show in a sumo match.


I think that the single Post retirement section is more reflective of both NPOV as well as more encyclopedic and better referenced. However, this is the second time that Neoyamaneko has re-edited this article with this information, so hopefully we can hear from other people about this. I am curious to hear about what other people think.XinJeisan 07:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I returned your version, as it is completely sourced. Neotamaneko's is not. He didn't even bother to use the sources you have provided when they were valid in his version. -Jmh123 22:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MMA record boxes

Neoyamaneko also feels that this style of record box:

[edit] K-1 record

December 31, 2003 Loss Bob Sapp K-1 Premium 2003 Dynamite!! KO Round 1, 2:55
March 27, 2004 Loss Musashi K-1 World GP 2004 in Saitama Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
July 17, 2004 Loss Zhang Qing Jun K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Seoul Decision 0-3 3 Rounds + Extra Round
August 7, 2004 Loss Rick Roufus K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Las Vegas Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
September 25, 2004 Loss Remy Bonjasky K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Tokyo KO (High Kick) Round 3, 0:33
March 19, 2005 Win Nobuaki Kakuta K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in SEOUL Decision 3-0 3 Rounds
March 19, 2005 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in SEOUL TKO Round 1, 0:42
July 29, 2005 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in Hawaiʻi TKO Round 1, 2:52
July 30, 2006 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2006 in Sapporo KO Round 2, 0:57
December 31, 2006 Loss Giant Silva K-1 PREMIUM 2006 Dynamite!! KO Round 1, 1:02

[edit] Mixed martial arts record

December 31, 2004 Loss Royce Gracie K-1 Premium 2004 Dynamite!! Submission (Wristlock) Round 1, 2:13
December 31, 2005 Loss Bobby Ologun K-1 Premium 2005 Dynamite!! Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
March 3, 2006 Loss Don Frye HERO'S 2006 Submission (Front choke sleeper hold） Round 2, 3:50
December 31, 2006 Loss Giant Silva K-1 Premium 2006 Dynamite!! Submission (Armlock) Round 1, 1:02

is better than this newer one that I made

[edit] Mixed Martial Arts Record

December 31, 2003 Loss Bob Sapp K-1 Premium 2003 Dynamite!! KO Round 1, 2:55
March 27, 2004 Loss Musashi K-1 World GP 2004 in Saitama Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
July 17, 2004 Loss Zhang Qing Jun K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Seoul Decision 0-3 3 Rounds + Extra Round
August 7, 2004 Loss Rick Roufus K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Las Vegas Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
September 25, 2004 Loss Remy Bonjasky K-1 WORLD GP 2004 in Tokyo KO (High Kick) Round 3, 0:33
December 31, 2004 Loss Royce Gracie K-1 Premium 2004 Dynamite!! Submission (Wristlock) Round 1, 2:13
March 19, 2005 Win Nobuaki Kakuta K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in SEOUL Decision 3-0 3 Rounds
March 19, 2005 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in SEOUL TKO Round 1, 0:42
July 29, 2005 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2005 in Hawaiʻi TKO Round 1, 2:52
December 31, 2005 Loss Bobby Ologun K-1 Premium 2005 Dynamite!! Decision 0-3 3 Rounds
July 30, 2006 Loss Choi Hong-man K-1 WORLD GP 2006 in Sapporo KO Round 2, 0:57
March 3, 2006 Loss Don Frye HERO'S 2006 Submission (Front choke sleeper hold） Round 2, 3:50
December 31, 2006 Loss Giant Silva K-1 Premium 2006 Dynamite!! Submission (Armlock) Round 1, 1:02

Maybe I am missing something about MMA, but I don't see why there should be two separate sections for this -- having one unified record box makes the article look better and actually easier to see that akebono keeps losing.XinJeisan 07:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Any idea why he has listed the same match (Dec. 31, 2006) in both charts, with different results? One says KO and one says submission? I've replaced that one as well. It isn't at all clear why there is a need for two, when both include K-1 premium matches. -Jmh123 22:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an important distinction here. K-1 promotes both kickboxing- and MMA-rules fights. Some of Akebono's K-1 fights are MMA, some aren't. See here --Zabwung 16:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

Upon reviewing this article against the GA criteria, I've concluded that this article does not meet the following criteria:

  • Criteria 1a:
    • I've added a "copyedit" template as the prose, punctuation, and grammar need work in this article.
    • "Post-retirement career" section is very listy. These stubby one and two sentence paragraphs need to be combined into one or two paragraphs.
  • Criteria 1b:
    • The lead should be a summary of the article. It should not introduce information that is not expanded upon in the article. Therefore, information in the article should not begin where the lead left off. For example, the lead states "Akebono became the first foreign born wrestler ever to reach Yokozuna, the highest rank in sumo." Then the article continues, "Akebono entered the sumo world in March 1988[3], at the same time as Takanohana[4] and Wakanohana[5], who would also eventually rise to the status of Yokozuna." This is not correct. It should state in the article, as it does in the lead, that Akebono was the first to reach Yokozuna, the highest rank in sumo. Then it should be expanded to include the information of Takanohana and Wakanohana.
    • According to WP:MOS#Wording concerning sections and headings, "only the first letter of the first word, and the first letter of proper nouns are capitalized; all other letters are in lowercase (for example, “Rules and regulations”, not “Rules and Regulations”)".
  • Criteria 2a:
    • References need to include all available information as listed at WP:CITE. Formatting should be complete and consistent. Additionally, placement of inline citations is directly after punctuation with no space before and no punctuation after.
  • Criteria 2b and Criteria 2c:
    • "This entry cohort was one of the most successful ever." - Needs source.
    • "...equalling the record for the most consecutive kachikoshi (majority of wins in a sumo championship) from debut." - Needs source.
    • "In his prime, he had incredible thrusting strength and on many occasions would blast lesser wrestlers out of the ring in one or two strokes." - Needs source.
  • Criteria 3a:
    • Is there nothing available about his personal life? Was he ever married, does he have children. If not, is there any explanation as to why?
  • Criteria 4a:
    • Has there been no criticism of him?

Therefore, I've determined that this articles nomination has failed. Once the above issues have been addressed and the article fully meets the GA criteria, it can be renominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this review has been made in error, you can request remediation at WP:GA/R. Regards, LaraLove 06:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)