User talk:Aivazovsky/Archive 2

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[edit] Re:

Cleve, I find the existence of that template ridiculous and even insulting. Regarding Suny, I have to search for those articles. I'll give them to you once I find them (one of them was provided by Grandmaster from what I recall).--Eupator 16:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the AG should not be subject for recognition or denial. There isn't a template for users that recognize the earth is round is there.--Eupator 16:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
You can promote awareness by opposing AG denial with the same template not saying something that should be obvious. Is there a template for users that recognize the holocaust? Just a suggestion.--Eupator 17:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
For very very different and complex reasons least of which have to do with Turkey or Turks and absolutely not because some recognize it and some don't. There is a better way of raising awareness, by simply opposing denial of the AG.--Eupator 17:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Kudos!.--Eupator 17:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordubad

Hi Cleve. I’ve got a question. How do you know that Ordubad is known as Ordubada? The word consists of Turkic Ordu (army) and Persian bad (town), i.e. army town. That additional letter doesn’t add any meaning to it. Grandmaster 11:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nakh

It was part of Ayrarat, Vaspurakan and Syunik. Most of it in Ayrarat. I mean just look at a map of Greater Armenia and compare it to modern Nakhichevan. Use any primary source that describes the provinces of Greater Armenia, be it Strabo, Ptolemy or Anania.--Eupator 14:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Hey Cleve, sorry for late reply. I think Mr Andersen’s bio and works speak of his credibility and I don’t know how else to prove this. To be honest, however, I detected some minor inaccuracies in the Georgia section of his website. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about Nakhichevan’s modern history and cannot consider GM’s doubts to be completely illegitimate. How about we consider using extra references? Cheers, Kober 04:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hey I saw you reverted some stuff on the article, I was just adding some more stuff while u reverted, so there was an edit-conflict. Let's have a look at the new version and tell me what u think. I posted some stuff in the talk page.. I hope that we can improve the page together. Baristarim 13:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anthem change

Yes I read that article a while ago but many of us Armenians have been quarreling over an anthem change for several years now. I myself would prefer Khachaturyan's SSR anthem with only the references to Lenin and socialism removed.--MarshallBagramyan 03:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There is actually another contender other Armenians want called Առաչ Նահատակ (Arrach Nahatak), which is essentially a war song that calls for Armenians to die fighting for their country. It has an interesting message but in terms of rhythm and tune, I don't like it. Keep in mind Mer Hayrenik was written several decades before the founding of the Dashnaktsakan Party and was adopted by the Armenian government in 1918 for practical reasons rather than partisan politics. In any case, I think Armenia has more important things to worry about than an anthem.--MarshallBagramyan 20:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps of

Thanks for your additions to Maps of foo articles. Electionworld Talk? 12:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Clevelander, you were right that you should have told me earlier. Since you accepted my suggestiopn without voicing discontent initially, i'm going to go ahead and ignore this altogether.--Eupator 19:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Said what?--Eupator 20:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused, but nevermind now...just forget it.--Eupator 20:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
lol Ok I see what you're saying. Yeah, i'm not a peoples person...--Eupator 20:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Dear Cleve, vontsez? whats new my friend? I think your friend and you are correct. I will ask for deletion of that photo. Im very sorry for confusion and misunderstanding. I purchase some of these on ebay and most sellers there do not provide reliable and valid descriptions. My appologies again to you and marshall. Thanks. Ldingley 20:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System of a down

How is a person posting about SoD considered flame-war fodder/vandalism? Rsm99833 00:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleve, revert yourself at Talk:Armenian Genocide and then I will take care of it. —Khoikhoi 05:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm, I was going to remove it, but then I realized it doesn't conform with WP:RPA. I'll just let it sit for a little while, and see what happens. —Khoikhoi 19:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armeniapedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Azeri#Azeri_Hacker --RaffiKojian 08:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Armenia

Hi Clevelander,
How are you supporting each other in Wikiproject Armenia? Does it make sense to write english articles that would be monitored/corrected by its members? Actually I started writing articles in German two months ago but like to try it in English as well. ---> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Indra //My english name is Apocolocynthosis as INDRA was already in use. Oh, and I almost forgot: there is www.haypedia.org have a look at it. It can be more specific than Wikipedia, get less disturbed by denialists & Co. but has another (maybe smaller) audience.--Apocolocynthosis 18:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There is not much cooperation among Armenians of Wikiproject Armenia it seems. Very exclusive club! No need for new applicants it seems!--Apocolocynthosis 10:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

What do you think we should do about the Armenian Genocide and Forced Deportations article? It's another page by our friend Karabekir (talk · contribs), and the whole page reads like one unencyclopedic essay. Should we merge it into the denial page or just delete it? —Khoikhoi 23:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about PROD rather than AfD this time? —Khoikhoi 23:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] genocide page

Please explain your reversions of my recent contributions to the page. [1] Sdedeo (tips) 21:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Image:Azerbaijan-Nakhichevan.png - Not bad, I'm actually pretty impressed with this. Well-labelled, well-colored, and nice zoom in. Nice to know my work has been helpful. :) --Golbez 23:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ankaqoutyan

Well, Shinorhavor Hayastani Ankaqoutyan 15 erort ameekuh indeed! --MarshallBagramyan 05:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Cheers! Will be there in 3 weeks.--Eupator 15:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nakhichevan

I seem to be the only one doing any discussing. In the meantime, either the lengthy and accurate text containing what Josephus actually wrote, or no text at all, is acceptable. Josephus did not use any Armenian word; that he meant Nakichevan or Nauxana is conjecture; that it derives from Noah is nonsense. JCScaliger 19:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


See this: [2]--Eupator 20:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijan

I wouldn't be too bothered by their comments. Naturally they'll posture for the crowds but Azerbaijan, contrary to what you might think, doesn't have the willpower to take the region. It can spend billions of dollars on all the weaponry it wants but in the end the situation will be similar to that of 1993-1994 where Armenians are fighting for survival and and self-preservation while the Azerbaijan army is fighting for more practical things, money, territory, etc. In early 1994, while nearly every male in Karabakh was wearing a camoflague or military uniform, Azeri youths at draft-age were sipping tea in downtown Baku, oblivious and quite carefree of what occuring in some war that they had obviously disconnected themselves with.

Anyways, didn't you watch the great military parade in the hraparak on Wedsnday? No tanks, but nevertheless very daunting :)--MarshallBagramyan 03:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Ya I'll upload some of the video footage of the vehicles also. One quick thing, the template I created just recently pertained to the Karabakh conflict per se (i.e. events leading up to it, not necessarily categorized as military battles. An article on the battle of Khojaly for example would not quite fit in there.), not the battles such as Shusha and Kelbajar.--MarshallBagramyan 23:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC

Hi, I'm informing editors who have recently contributed to similar articles that there's an RfC at: Talk:Turkey#Request_for_Comment:_Sanitization_of_Turkish_history concerning the Armenian Genocide. Feel free to add your say, and pass the message on. Yandman 08:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

Cleve can you please give a grade to this article Talk:Alexander Chavchavadze/Comments A or B. Thanks. Ldingley 14:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zaparodjik

He has broken 3RR on two different articles simultaneausly. I have reported him. Khosrow II 20:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another question

Hey Clevelander, I just noticed the Posha article today. Have you ever heard of them? I couldn't find much about them on Google books, perhaps they are known by another name? —Khoikhoi 01:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll ask Desiphral. —Khoikhoi 08:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
They really are all over the place. :-) —Khoikhoi 08:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Van

--MarshallBagramyan 23:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're like many Armenians and believe in the Բնիկ theory of where Armenian history came from, Van was in the heart of the historical Armenia and was once a kingdom (along with Akhtamar, to a much lesser degree) after the Bagratuni Empire broke up. Ararat symbolized Armenia whereas Van cultivated, encapsulated and gave birth to it.--MarshallBagramyan 02:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Karabakh was simply made up the most northereastern region of what generally constituted historical Armenia. I never had any love for those դրթիի Վրացի psedo-Christians though. They were never helpful to us and Ժավախ and Ախալքալաքի and all the other -քալաքիs were simply given to them by the Marxist duo during the 1920s. I wouldn't care where the Kurds would move so long as its generally below Van but they claim their stakes in alot of far reaching regions.--MarshallBagramyan 02:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
No not the Hamshenis. The Վրացի as in Ժoրժյans ;) Also, missionaries would be unable to do that since Islam prevents backwards/retro conversion.--MarshallBagramyan 02:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I know, its just that during the Ottoman Empire times, the American missionaries attempted to convert Muslims but when unable to do so, just moved on to the Armenians. The Վրացի are unreliable, I could go on about them but save that for another discussion. I wouldn't mind having the Hamshenis back, Christian or Muslim, their still Armenian.--MarshallBagramyan 02:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Font

Something plain and not so flashy.--Eupator 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

He, can you change the the 4th picture in the header image to a green landscape instead? Btw any image larger than 570px cannot be viewed properly on a 800x600 res.--Eupator 16:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
That's Ararat? A closeup? It's better to see Ararat in its full glory with both peaks. So change that and replace the 2nd or the 3rd image with a green landscape.--Eupator 19:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks.--Eupator 19:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WTF

How is that possible? Who deleted them? They were all properly sourced!--Eupator 15:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkic Peoples

The article is once again being attacked by Zaparodjik and now Baristam. They are once again tyring to remove the map that we spent hours working on.Khosrow II 00:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rebellions

Yeah, it calls for deletion since most of it is unsourced and obvious POV pushing. --MarshallBagramyan 23:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Looks like things seem to have calmed down since you last sent me a message. Let me know if any other news happens. Ciao. —Khoikhoi 01:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply "reporting canvass"

Thank you for contacting me. In fact, I hadn't noticed that you had informed user Eupator about the article Armenian rebellions shortly before nominating it to deletion. I assume good faith and have retreated the canvass report. But I must say that it could still have been considered canvass, especially if you had informed more users about the article in the period immediately before nomination to AfD. Anyway you are an experienced user and I doubt that you would try to cheat. :-) Sorry for the report. Best regards. --Húsönd 12:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zangezur

Zangezur Mountains
Zangezur Mountains

The name I am not sure of, the book I have that would shed light on this is not by me and I will have to remember to check when I see it. Zang would likely have some ties to the word bell/ring, but I wouldn't quote myself on that ;-) I do have some photos, but again would need to look at a map to see exactly which mountain chains are defined as part of Zangezur, since the term Zangezur is used to refer to the entire stretch of Armenia starting at the gates of Zangezur (north of Sisian) all the way to Meghri. --RaffiKojian 15:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I just uploaded a photo I took yesterday - perhaps I should have cropped the bottom grass section a bit - but anyway, someone else can do that if they like... --RaffiKojian 02:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: WikiProject Armenia

Done. :-) —Khoikhoi 22:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

u have a legitimate point, therefore I changed the header to 'where Turkic languages are spoken', I am not too familiar with this template, and it is the first time that I am getting involved.. So I am trying to feel my way around this. :) Baristarim 21:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Calgvla

Keep an eye on User:Calgvla edits.--Eupator 15:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenia

Depends on what theory you believe in, the Yekvort or Bneek, native or trans-European. If its the latter, "Armenia" itself was a collection of several tribes and scattered alongst the opening of the south Caucasus, placing it, at the closest, to Ararat. The Noah's ark theory depends more or less on faith rather than what you would find in the history book. Plausible, yes, but not quite scientific. Anyways, the Hayasa, Hittites and others thus formed a federation and become Urartu which according to the newest discoveries in archaeology, is where the Armenian people originated from. --MarshallBagramyan 03:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Clev whats up? here read this [3] Ldingley 21:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Democratic Republic of Armenia

Dear Clevander, Your revert.. on 'crimes'. I need some explanations; which kind/type crimes? Was, some Armenians spit out to some Turkish one? Or were they insult to Turkish in newspapers? What? Itis necessary to define the name of event. Please think about it. Regards. Mustafa AkalpTC 13:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Dear (Armenianlander, Thanks so for.. Regards Mustafa AkalpTC 13:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azeri-related topics

I'm not sure why you are removing information having to do with Azerbaijan and Azeris from articles. I recall having a little discussion on Kars with you, after which you decided it was fair to add the Azeri version of the city's name. Now you're removing the same sort of info for Igdir despite the fact that the town has a large Azeri community. Same goes with the Caucasian Albania article. If this is merely lack of information/knowledge, then I would recommend doing some research on the given topics before editing them. But if this has something to do with your opposition to "aggressive separatism in Abkhazia and South Ossetia" and "the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", yet at the same time support of "the independence of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic", i.e. your ideological likes and dislikes, then there is a lot to talk about. Parishan 03:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realize that Iğdır had a significant Azeri population. I apologize for that. I am not "removing information having to do with Azerbaijan and Azeris from articles." As a matter of fact, I have worked constructively with many Azeri editors on Wikipedia and I have even helped develop the page on the Republic of Azerbaijan. I still find Baku87's map of Caucasian Albania questionable, however, and will continue to challenge it.
Now then, I'm not sure why, instead of being diplomatic towards me in your message, that you would present yourself as openly hostile with criticism for my political views. I mean you no harm in my edits and contributions and I apologize if I came off that way. If you must know, I am neither completely pro-seperatist or non-seperatist. I support Georgian unity (thus I am opposed to the sepratism of Abkhazia and South Ossetia which have historically been part of the Georgian nation) and I believe the best solution for Georgia in the long term is the establishment of a federal republic. I believe that the TRNC should work constructively to unify itself with the Republic of Cyprus instead of trying to seperate. I hold the view that both Greek and Turkish Cupriots should get along and that there should only be one Cyprus.
I support Nagorno-Karabakh's sepratism from Azerbaijan because I believe that at certain times in history, the region was part of Armenia and that Baku has proven itself unworthy of regaining it (with its constant threats against Armenia and its encouragement for public hostility towards Armenians). Overall, I hope that Armenians and Azerbaijanis can work together in peace and that Azerbaijan's claim over Karabakh is the only stumbling block between the two nations. I am sure that you have an opposing view and I really don't want to argue over this matter, so I won't go any further. This is just my opinion.
Again, I'm sorry if I came off as being brash. I hope that we can work together constructively on Wikipedia. Kindest regards, Clevelander 10:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if I got the wrong impression. And I'm sorry if my message sounded a bit harsh. I do appreciate your help and valuable contributions, despite this little misunderstanding. Just to make sure, Azeri names are only added for places that historically have had more or less significant Azeri population. I would definately not object if an Azeri name for Lisbon or Rio de Janeiro was taken off the main article. I hope we're on the same page here. Parishan 06:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suny

Cleve, question: Do you have any ambitions to became administrator? Ldingley 19:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleve, info on Suni [4] Ldingley 20:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Clevelander. How are you? As far as I know Suny’s family comes from Kars. I’ve read somewhere that his grandfather migrated to Tiflis during the Genocide and left for the US after the Bolshevik takeover of Georgia in 1921. I don’t really know anything about his political views. Maybe someone should write an article about him. All the best, Kober 04:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
just to add a tidbit on him, Suny was a Sovietologist and learned to speak Russian and Georgian before he ever got in touch with his Armenian roots. Armenians for the most part dislike him due to his unopopular views on how to solve the Karabakh problem. --MarshallBagramyan 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Whoa. How come you know Eastern Armenian? That's very cool.--Eupator 13:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

That's really awesome ! Did he preserve any memorabilia from his time with the Romanian Axis forces? I'm fluent in both, I can even simulate the weird sounding dialect of Parskahyes. Hey you should visit Armenia, with your good knowledge of EA nobody will be able to scam you when you shop for souvenirs :)--Eupator 02:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw the Armenian intelligence agency is the Armenian National Security Ministry.--Eupator 16:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Cleve, we need your input here []User:Kober/Georgian-Soviet War]]. Thanks! Ldingley 17:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Nagorno-Karabakh

Hi. In my opinion, the article History of Nagorno-Karabakh sucks big time, both in terms of accuracy and English grammar. It is based on unreliable sources and violates NPOV policy. We have an experience of resolving such problems in Nakhichevan article, I suggest we do a major rework of History of NK whenever you have time. We may ask some third party editors for help as well, as it is a controversial issue. Regards, Grandmaster 04:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

One of my problems with the text is that it tries to prove that ancient Artsakh was exclusively Armenian and ignores the sources, such as Columbia:

A part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh, the area was taken by Armenia in the 1st cent. A.D. and by the Arabs in the 7th cent. [5]

Or Iranica:

Albania (Iranian Aran, Ar. Aluank), an ancient country in the Caucasus. It was bounded on the north by Ceraunian mountains, an extension of the Caucasus, on the east by the Caspian sea, and on the south by the lower course of the Araxes (Aras); on the west its borders were unstable: The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo (Geography 11.14.5) was repeatedly overrun, to the advantage sometimes of Albanians, sometimes of Armenians. [6]

The article should be consistent with the articles Artsakh and Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster 11:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I can help out with sources and its history from 1728-2006, and help out a great deal in grammar but ancient history would need editors with better foreknowledge about it, like Tigran, Eup, or Fadix.--MarshallBagramyan 16:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure. Any contribution is welcome, I actually would like to ask some third-party editors to join as well, since the issue is controversial. We need to bring the article up to the wiki standards, its current state is really a shame. Grandmaster 06:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raffi & Nakhichevan

I'm not actually from the South Caucasus. But I am *in* the S. Caucasus, and my opinion is that at this time there can be no change in Nakhichevan for a number of reasons, #1 of which is that there doesn't appear to be any will on behalf of the government for a change to take place. Glad the Zangezur pic was ok, I took many shots, but the mountains are more rolling than sheer, and start from a high altitude to begin with, so great shots were not easy to come by. Ah, and the Armenian "KGB" is now called Azgayin Anvdankutyan (National Security) something or other now. --RaffiKojian 09:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caligvla

Hello there! While I understand your frustration with Caligvla, I cannot support indiscriminate reverting of his contributions to Armenia and other articles. If something is obvious vandalism or trolling, yes. If something is disputed, it should be discussed on the article Talk page (unless it has already been discussed and consensus formed, then revert). For other kinds of edits, I expect them to stand. I have asked Caligvla to consider stopping editing Armenia-related articles for a while, but that is his decision at this point. Thanks and let me know if you have any questions. --Aguerriero (talk) 14:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey

Um, its something not new. Same thing happend when France recognized the Genocide in 2001, waxing lyrical over how damaged their relations would get. The real pathetica part of their avowals is that they are short-term, six months at most. When France recognized the Genocide, they cancelled military contracts and vowed to never buy anything French again, only to see them purchasing L'oreal just several months later. This goes back to the 1930s when Turkey exerted the same pressure on the US State Dept. on preventing the making of films on the Armenian Genocide. Its bnakan in Turks.--MarshallBagramyan 02:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Yeah, I know. I find discussing that pointless. We don't discuss whether the earth is flat or not. Let the two and their socks bark all they want...Just ignore it.--Eupator 18:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genocide Template

I think it would be a good idea if we have a Genocide template similar to the one on the Holocaust, showing antecedants ( i.e. Hamidian Massacres and Ottoman Bank incident) and general information related to the Genocide itself, April 24, the SO, trials, etc. You interested in making one? --MarshallBagramyan 20:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, but we can definitely add extra links to it. Nice job. --MarshallBagramyan 21:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: I'm sorry

Hehe, no problem! :-) Please let me know if you ever need help with anything (i.e. semi-protection of the Armenian Genocide page). Cheers, —Khoikhoi 21:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Comments

Please stop removing other's comments on talk pages. It is impolite and they have the right to post. Consider this a warning. pschemp | talk 00:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sasun

Hey Clevelander, I saw the good Armenian Genocide template you made and I saw you have included Sasun resistance...I must mention that there were 2 resistance operations in Sasun, one in 1894 and one in 1904...should we include both of em? thanks Fedayee 03:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Ararat

It is spelled არარატის მთა, Araratis mt'a. All the best, --Kober 05:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

I, Eupator, hereby award you this Barnstar of National Merit for all the work you have done to improve the coverage of Armenia related articles. Keep up the great work!

Not sure where it should go on your page so here it is.--Eupator 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hey, would you mind adding Artvin to your watchlist? I've been having to revert two anons lately. Thanks! Khoikhoi 23:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Օ and never Ո when

at the beginning of a word/name, otherwise it would be Vohanjanyan not Ohanjanyan. Also, ձ=dz while ջ=dj.--Eupator 19:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

My position has always been that before we even begin discussing that realistically we need to clean our house first. The Armenians are arguably one of the most divided ethnic groups on earth, if not the most divided. Things have been looking good in recent years since independence though.--Eupator 21:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Would be very ideal if we did, but we have to think realistically here and take a complete look at the geographical and military minefield Armenia has to maneuver past in order to get to even get to that point. Resolving Karabakh and acquiring Genocide recognition worldwide are the orders of the day for the next few years...--MarshallBagramyan 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: March Days

Hey Clevelander. Unfortunately, I'm not really comforttable with moving a page to a title that there wasn't any clear consensus for in the first place. You seem to have a good argument for the "March Days" title, and if you went to WP:RM, I would support you. However, I've deleted the edit history of the redirect...so if you want to move the page, go right ahead. Cheers, Khoikhoi 00:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, you should've have done it like that—now you've destroyed the edit history of the article. I'm going to delete the page again, please do it the proper way next time by moving the page instead. Thanks. Khoikhoi 00:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Khoikhoi 00:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think the redirect should stay. If someone who only knows the term "March Massacre" looks it up, he will be pointed to the March Days article. To erase the redirect wouldn't really be helping the reader. However, if you still want it deleted please go to WP:RFD. Thanks. Khoikhoi 00:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, looks good to me. Khoikhoi 00:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures of Nakhichevan

You said you had some pictures of the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. If so, could you please upload them to Wikipedia? Thanks! -- Clevelander 12:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Please give me an e-mail address or show me the way to send you some photos you requested. I guess you want photos from Nakhichevan city, right?

--Ulvi I. 07:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenia in Europe

I am a member of the AMA (Association of Members' Advocates) currently acting on behalf of User:Caligvla, who has named you as one of the participants in the dispute over whether Armenia is in Europe or Asia. Caligvla has listed a number of reference sources classifying Armenia as an Asian country. He claims that the only sources quoted by your side of the dispute are 1.) an obsecure Canadian website that places Armenia in Europe, and a BBC article that mistakenly places Armenia in Europe. Can you please respond to this and give your side of the argument (preferably on my userpage)? Under the AMA principle of audi alteram partem, you have the right to be heard. (NB Copies of this message have been placed on the talkpage of all those who Caligvla has named as participants in the dispute.) Walton monarchist89 09:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Anyone that thinks Turkic peoples are Indo-Europeans is a complete and utter (pick your own expletive).--Eupator 13:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's great, but why do I think that you're saying that as if you're doing me a favor?--Eupator 22:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caligvla dispute

Thank you for your response (on User:Eupator's talk page). I appreciate the fact that sources have now been provided supporting your side of the dispute. As Armenia is a member of the Council of Europe, this indicates that politically they may be considered a part of Europe. It now appears to me that the weight of evidence is roughly equal on both sides. The trouble with the whole Wikipedia process is that, in almost all disputes, it is possible to locate sources to support both sides of the argument, which sends us 'back to square one' as far as the whole dispute-resolution process is concerned. The only solution I can see is to edit all the disputed articles to add something along the lines of: Some authorities consider Armenia an Asian country, due to its geographical position and the historical relationship of Armenians to Asian peoples. However, Armenia is part of the Council of Europe, and is now considered part of Europe for some purposes. Armenians themselves disagree about whether their country is Asian or European. Do you agree with this as an acceptable form of phrasing? Walton monarchist89 10:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

Caligvla removed the tag again.--Eupator 19:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prague Spring

I don't know about the legality of using copyright screenshots, but you've done a great service to the article by providing those images. Thanks. -- TheMightyQuill 00:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tsavatane :)

Barev, no problem, I just wanted to have simplier design. feel free to add. Cheers! Sosomk 01:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I like Levon Ter-Petrossian a lot, do you think we should have him there?SosoMK 01:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear driend, please help me on Georgia (country), User:WGee is involved in a POV pushing and keps rv in it back. I dont wonna get a 3 R block, please keep an on the article. SosoMK 03:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks my friend, as soon as we will get to be a member of the NATO, Armenia probably is gona be the first country we will be conerned about. We are friends historically and culturally and we won't let them alone. I think Armenia will show its potential pretty soon. Please keep an eye on Georgia page, I don't know what's the motivation of the guy, I guess some people like to vandalize the articles, I mean, he keeps rving without making any points on discussion page. SosoMK 02:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit count

In case you haven't seen it: [7]. You've been a busy bee the past few months.--Eupator 16:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian flag and coat of arms colors

Hello Clevelander,

I think that we need to tweak the colors on Armenian flag a little bit. I believe that CIA's colors and FIFA's colors look closer to the real one than the one at Wikimedia Commons. Also, take a look at Flags of the World page, even though they have a flag similar to the one at Commons, the color specifications on that page are closer to the CIA's colors and FIFA's colors.

Granted, the one at Commons look a lot nicer, but not real.--Crzycheetah 02:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S.
Why am I saying this to you? Because you changed the colors on the image I uploaded.

One more thing, the coat of arms colors, I believe, are wrong too. Take a look at the Armenian Gov't page, the blue and red colors are switched. --Crzycheetah 04:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, that I think more about it, it is a very serious change; therefore, I propose that we take a poll at WikiProject Armenia to see what everybody else thinks about flag and coat of arms. Since I am not familiar with polls and stuff and, at the same time, you are a member of that project, I am asking you to start one. Thank you. --Crzycheetah 18:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

That section is sourced and it has been conformed to all requests. There is no reason for it to be taken out.Khosrow II 16:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Its fine, the situation has been resolved :).Khosrow II 17:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lachin

Please see Talk:Lachin corridor to resolve that little misunderstanding.

Since you're knowledgeable on the Caucus and Central Asia topics, can you please comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Turkish History Brief. --Mardavich 12:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey Cleve, I just noticed the comment you left me - are things ok now? Khoikhoi 23:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good! Let me know if you need anything. Khoikhoi 00:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I already saw. I'm still not sure if we should delete it or not (see Fadix's comments here). Khoikhoi 00:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Cyprus

Rhodes and the Dodecanese were under Italian administration and Italy was an Axis power, id est it was defeated, and suffered territory loses to Greece and Yugoslavia (Istria)-maybe also France, i am not sure. Cyprus was a British colony. the British had no reason to cede it to Greece. In addition, Greece immediately after WWII was dragged into a civil war (so, every rival group wanted to prevail in Greece, not to gain territory for Greece). also, the British had helped those who finally prevailed, the royalists, so the later were not willing to claim anything from them. and, not forget, that the Middle East was already "over-heated" after the creation of Israel, thus Britain was not willing to give up a geostrategically precious colony... Hope i've helped;-). Hectorian 20:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[8] ;-). Hectorian 20:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Former country infoboxes

Hi there. Thanks for implementing my changes to the SSR infobox and for working on the former country infobox in other entries. In case you are interested, I have just completed a more comprehensive set of instructions for using the Former Country infobox here. Keep up the good work. - 16:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

I don't know if you ever took notice but is it just me but are the templates used on the SSR articles ugly? I know how red is used for communism and all but is it possible to get rid of the color (and the type of font used) and instead opt out on the ones used on the ones used on the American states articles? Goes double for the bottom template of the Soviet republics, the color, the shape, the eyesore red color....its just awkward and looks wrong. Kinda the reason why I changed the template to look like this [9], cool blue color.--MarshallBagramyan 03:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I created this. What ya think?--MarshallBagramyan 21:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your input would be appreciared

Dear Clevland

[[10]]

It is similar Armeniapedia which I also support. --alidoostzadeh 03:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From origins to 1917

On the "History of Nagorno-Karabakh" Article.

5. Dizak Melikdom stretched from the southern slope of Big Kirs mountain to the River Аrax.

Is it supposed to be Araks River?

The Araks (also known as Aras, Arax, Araxi, Araxes, Araz, or Yeraskh

[edit] anons additions

I had overlooked his earlier additions, good catch. Those are extremely ultra rare and old theories that very very few people actually believe in.--Eupator 20:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets leave the Mittani in the article, since it just says Mittani inhabited parts of Armenia and the Mittani territory did include South-Western parts of historic Armenia. It's just the anon's explanations are a little wacky to say the least. I especially liked the comment about the movie "The Egyptian" lol--Eupator 15:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SFD notification

This is a notification to inform you that a stub template and category that you created ({{Armenia-hist-stub}} and Cat:Armenian history stubs) is up for deletion at WP:SFD. Please join the discussion. ~ Amalas rawr =^_^= 17:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nakhichevan

Good call on the lead of Nakhichevan. I only included the "historically part of Armenia" thing because someone had vandalized the article to say "exclave of historical Armenia" instead of "exclave of Azerbaijan" and I wanted to try to stop them from changing it back. Mike Dillon 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nakhichevan images

Unfortunately, I have not found any new images of Nakhichevan. I will let you know if I get any. Take care. Grandmaster 16:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Anahit.png

Hey, can you add the source/url for that image so that we know it's a work of the Armenian gov.--Eupator 18:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Another request

No problem! Khoikhoi 02:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diaspora map

Parev Clevelander, very nice work on the Armenian Diaspora map. But I believe there is a problem with Argentina, there are way more Armenians there than 5 000 to 15 000. They are quite a vibrant community with certain estimates putting them over 100 000. They also have a big influence there and recently the Argentine parliament recognized the Genocide as a day of mourning. I'm not sure if I can find an exact number but this site [11] states about 130 000. This is the Argentino-Armenians site [12] sadly, I can't really tell if there is an English version of it lol. Anyway could you please fix the map. Thanks again and nice work Fedayee 00:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tsavatane

Dear Clevelander,

Please, keep up your excellent work. SosoMK 00:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Yes its a photo of an Armenian family in Turkey, before the Genocide. Found that one on Ebay. Regards. Luis. Ldingley 19:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle Eastern Americans

yes or no? Chaldean 07:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Clevlander, regarding this template the template of Armenian diaspora, I think Turkey should be removed from the list because they are not actually diasporans. I mean, the land that is called Turkey today is the homeland of those Armenians still their - you can't be considered to be leaving in the diaspora when you are living in your own homeland, dont you agree?

diaspora - "The term diaspora (in Greek, διασπορά – "a scattering or sowing of seeds") is used (without capitalization) to refer to any people or ethnic population forced or induced to leave their traditional ethnic homelands;" - those Armenians living in Turkey have not left their traditional ethnic homeland. Chaldean 04:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article

Ok, let's do it that way then.. In any case, I won't be able to contribute anymore tonight, gotta have some sleep. But I will try to look into it tomorrow. Cheers! Baristarim 01:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The last version of the Treaty of Kars is good, no problems with that.. Baristarim 02:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AGBU

Thanks! :-) --RaffiKojian 04:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag Re

Looks good, red color is less stinging. The COA, or Գերբ in Armenian, looks funny colored though (the grapes look tasty, however), makes me want to revert to the one I uploaded.--MarshallBagramyan 19:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urartu

Thanks for the welcome, but why are you removing the well-cited and appropriate reference? It is a major source and reflects the information which is both appropriate for the article and generally included in one way or another in such encyclopedia's as Britannica. Speaking of which, I might quote them. --AdilBaguirov 23:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Nareklm/Urartian Armenians

I have over 200 sources on urartu and counting almost. I got way more Urartu's are closet to Armenians there for Mesrop Mashtots wasn't there back than so i don't get the fuss about the languages. If they want sources these are very reliable. Nareklm 00:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Artak Movsisyan, "Aratta: The ancient Kindgom of Armenia," Yerevan, 1992.
  • M.Chahin, "The Kingdom of Armenia," London, 2001 "The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race."
  • Artak Movsisyan, "Mithraic (Mehian) Writing in the Kingdom of Van (Biaynili, Urartu, Ararat)," Yerevan, 1998.
  • Artak Movsisyan, "Sacred Highland: Armenia in the spiritual conception of the Near East," Yerevan, 2000.
  • Artak Movsisyan, "Aratta: Land of the Sacred Law," Yerevan, 2001. Ararat arev
  • Martiros S. Kavoukjian's The Genesis of Armenian People, Montreal, 1982
  • G. Contenau's 19th century text La Civilisation des Hittites et des Hurrites du Mitanni Paris. p. 62.
  • Cf. the study of Neu 1996 with further bibliographical references.
  • Diakonoff 1967, 165; 1971, 157-171; 1978; 1980, 103.
  • Diakonoff and Starostin 1986; 1988.
  • Starostin 1995a; 1998.
  • HroznY 1916, 27, n.3 (the idea of a possible Indo-European or Hittite influence on the Hurro-Urartian

Nominative-Ergative in -Í/Íe, discussed later by Pedersen); Diakonoff 1980, 104.

  • Dzhaukian 1963; 1967.
  • Gamkrelidze and Ivanov 1984/1995; Xachikian 1985a, 53-54.
  • Starostin 1988.
  • 1989. Il mito troiano e l’eredità etrusca di Roma. Milan.
  • Reichelt, H. 1978. Awestisches Elementarbuch. Reprint. Heidelberg.
  • Riemschneider, K. K. 1973. Lehrbuch des Akkadischen. 2nd. ed. Leipzig.
  • Ringe, Don, Jr. 1996. On the Chronology of Sound Changes in Tocharian. Vol. 1. of From
  • Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Tocharian. American Oriental Series. 80. New Haven.

[edit] Yerevan

Hi Clevelander. Please use the talk page and cite your sources before reverting the article. Otherwise I see no end to the dispute. Regards, Grandmaster 11:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

“Liberation” and “occupation” are POV, “control” is neutral. It’s been discussed before, and no matter how referenced it is, you cannot say that Russians liberated the city from Persia, for whom it belonged for centuries. Iran definitely does not consider it to be liberation, and correct word would be conquered, but neutral word would be “took under control”. The article in Iranica says “Erevan fell to the Russians”, why not using that reference? This should not be an issue. Grandmaster 12:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
It was foreign occupation anyway, Russia was a foreign country that seized the region from Persia. Calling it liberation would be offensive for Iranian people, we can ask the opinion of Iranian users as well, if you wish. Grandmaster 08:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
But Persia was different from Nazi Germany, wasn't it? I suggest we ask third party opinion, I don't want this to become a large dispute. Grandmaster 11:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Now you see my point. So neutrality requires us to choose a wording on the middle ground between liberation and occupation. I think we can ask Ali, who's opinion I respect, to advise on this. Alternatively, you can pick anyone else. Grandmaster 11:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the revert, I had missed it since I generally edit by sections :) Baristarim 00:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I am sorry, but I had to revert your edits in the fr rel tr article. Please remember that it is the fr rel tr, not history of turkey article. Please keep that in mind. It doesn't make sense to change "Russia and Caucasus" to "post-soviet caucasus". I am sorry to say this, but turkey's relations with russia are more important to turkey than Turkey's relations with Armenia or georgia. The section title will be about Russia and Caucasus, and it will be mainly about Russia when that section will be worked on. Please put things in context. That article needs work, and most of the historical stuff will be taken out sooner or later. Half the article is a stub in any case. There is also no reason to create a "Pakistan" subsection. It is not like Pakistani-Turkey relations form the main axis of power of Asia :) The AG issue is talked about in the "Debates and frictions" section in the article, there is no need to duplicate information. I have the feeling that you jumped into the article without reading it fully. Baristarim 23:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I will delete the Turkish version of events, they shouldn't be in there either. Nagorno-Karabakh could be mentioned I suppose. However it shouldn't be a whole list of events either.. I didn't write that section, so I don't know who did either.. Baristarim 00:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Please don't edit when you know that there are objections to your version, otherwise I will have to revert your other edits because of edit conflicts. There is already a debates and frictions section. Baristarim 00:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
It is mentioned in "debates and frictions". That version was agreed upon after long discussions and debate way back when. Another reason I am reverting is the fact that it could lead to an edit war. It is mentioned, there is a see also for AG right under the subsection, and the situation is talked about in the debates and frictions section. That's all I am saying, it is not like it is not mentioned at all :) Even the selection of the AG seealso for the Caucasus subsection was talked about. Baristarim 00:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I will take a look. I reverted it before I got your msg, so just wait a minute, I will get back to you.. Baristarim 00:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok no problems, I reverted myself to your latest version :) Phew, we got through that alright! lol Baristarim 00:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the other additions as well! Baristarim 00:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
No worries! Baristarim 11:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey Clevelander

Be careful man. There is no such thing as if past midnight you're entitled to 3 more rv's! It applies for any 3 rv's within a 24h period (regardless dates). I'll help in the discussion if you wish, start by citing different definitions of European borders... NikoSilver 22:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I share your views 100%. I only gave you a friendly advice, because you're more useful to me unblocked! :-) NikoSilver 22:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Niko and Clevekander, thanks for taking care of it in my absence. --Eupator 23:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Its only been going a day, and while I may think that is a reasonable solution, we should leave it a few days at least. If there is no useful discussion by say Saturday, let me know again. There does seem to be reasonable discussion going on, and thats what matters. - Francis Tyers · 13:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Don't take him too seriously, he has anger issues. One should tell him that Hungarians are Magyars who are Finno-Ugric and have nothing to do with Huns. Btw, Magyars themselves were very few in numbers hen they inavded Europe, their language remained but most Hungarians are descendants of people who lived there since the Ice Age.--Eupator 21:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You can only be proud of your Hungarian ancestry. One of the most important people in the history of Western civilization was Hungaria-John Hunyadi ! Hell I would consider you Armenian even if you were 99% Hungarian. I especially like the fact that you're learning Armenian, I know some so called pure Armenians who dodn't knwo half the Armenian you know.
You added more than that, he wasn't talking about that obviously. Tigran was being a prick but i'm going to have to agree with Fadix on this one.--Eupator 00:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
lol If you're a racist i'm Chinese. Anyone that believes Magyars or modern Hungarians have anything to do with Turkics is an ignorant buffoon.--Eupator 01:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the problem though. You're oblivious as to what's the root of the issue here. If your e-mail was enabled in Wikipedia I could explain :)--Eupator 01:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not.--Eupator 01:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You need to click on :"Enable e-mail from other users."--Eupator 01:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merry Christmas

Dear Cleve, I always admired you for your true Armenian identity and wisdom. You have been very helpful for your countrymen which does not limit to only Armenians but to Georgians and Azeri. You are a very special person and I want to wish you most happy Christmas and New Year. Wishing you and your family all of success, happiness and love. Marry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Best regards. Ldingley 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Historic capitals of Armenia}}

Wow, what a mess. Thanks for that. Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, I was somewhat busy in real life. Anyways, Francis Tyers is no longer an admin, but it seems that it probably will be closed as a no consensus. I suppose that it's important to stay cool when the editing gets hot, although things seem to have calmed down since you wrote. Is the problem ongoing or has it ended? Khoikhoi 11:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merry Christmas

Hey Cleve. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! I wish all the best to you and your loved ones. --Kober 05:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year!

Շնորհաւոր նոր տարի եւ Սուրբ Ծնունդ - Fedayee 19:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)