Talk:Airport West, Victoria
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[edit] Melbourne Airport
I can't find evidence of Melbourne Airport being a locality. However, Airport West is a locality managed under the City of Moonee Valley and one could probably even find the date in the Government Gazette at which it was declared one. See [1] Orderinchaos78 11:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- This site includes Melbourne Airport in a list of suburbs/towns in the City of Hume [2]. This site gives a definition of Australian localities [3]. That is "Localities can be bounded suburbs, towns and rural districts (that is have an official boundary), or unbounded neighbourhoods (that is have no official boundary). Local councils determine the locality names and boundaries within their municipalities in accordance with the procedures set out in the Guidelines for Geographic Names (October 2004)." On the same site this map shows "Melbourne Airport" as one of many bounded suburbs, towns or rural districts in the City of Hume [4]. Melbourne airport does have an official boundary, and it has its own post code. Melway street directory also clearly shows the official boundaries of Melbourne Airport. Asa01 02:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Airports are kind of weird ones. They're not actually localities in the true sense, although are treated like they are for various purposes by State and local governments (mainly for locating things). The distinction is that one is managed by a corporate entity while the other is managed for public use (commercial, residential, industrial). Hence "Melbourne Airport" would actually be in effect a trademark owned by whoever owns the actual airport, and they exist outside of council control under a federal Act and can even subdivide land for commercial or industrial use (there's been a HUGE argument in Perth and Brisbane about the growth of their airports into commercial offerings without having to pay council rates). Melbourne Airport, as far as I'm aware, is in Tullamarine, Victoria, while Perth Airport is in Newburn, Western Australia, although Melway and Streetsmart (WA's equiv) disagree. Orderinchaos78 01:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you say that "Airports are kind of weird ones"? Is there a special overriding law over land used by an Airport? And I am not sure what the "true sense" of a locality might be. I posted a definition... how does Melbourne Airport not fit that definition? Localities are purely arbitrary: if the local council lays borders around a section of land and gives that area a name, then that is a locality. The City of Hume did just that with the general section of land occupied by Melbourne Airport, and allocated the name "Melbourne Airport". That makes it a locality. Just because it is basically congruent with a commercial entity, why does that make Melbourne Airport not a locality too? Melway shows both actual airport boudaries, and boundaries for the suburb or locality that is named "Melbourne Airport". It has its own unique postcode. That land has no other name, and no other post code. The airport is not in Tullamarine because that is a different locality outside the "Melbourne Airport" locality borders (pale blue dotted lines in Melway), and Tullamarine has a different postcode. Other airports might be handled differently. Like many of these arguments, it can be easily cleared up by quoting a reliable external reference that explicitly states that "Airport West" is the only Aust "locality" featuring the word "Airport" in its name. That is a normal requirement of anything in Wikipedia. Asa01 01:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Airports are kind of weird ones. They're not actually localities in the true sense, although are treated like they are for various purposes by State and local governments (mainly for locating things). The distinction is that one is managed by a corporate entity while the other is managed for public use (commercial, residential, industrial). Hence "Melbourne Airport" would actually be in effect a trademark owned by whoever owns the actual airport, and they exist outside of council control under a federal Act and can even subdivide land for commercial or industrial use (there's been a HUGE argument in Perth and Brisbane about the growth of their airports into commercial offerings without having to pay council rates). Melbourne Airport, as far as I'm aware, is in Tullamarine, Victoria, while Perth Airport is in Newburn, Western Australia, although Melway and Streetsmart (WA's equiv) disagree. Orderinchaos78 01:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Is there a special overriding law over land used by an Airport? Yes. I think you'll find it's managed by Federal Transport and State Planning legislation - see my comments above. One example is at [5], and Part 3C of [6] (State legislation)
- The City of Hume did just that - Did they? Is there a gazettal around 1970ish to this effect? Perth Airport also has its own postcode distinct from Newburn and Redcliffe, is marked by Streetsmart as a locality, but was not gazetted as a locality of the City of Belmont at any time, and any subdivision on it can proceed even with the specific objection of the council. In Brisbane, retailers in nearby areas have been complaining for some time because the commercial side of the airport is actually competing with them on what they see as an unfair playing field.
- It has its own unique postcode - That is decided by Australia Post and not the council.
- Note that I didn't make the original assertion regarding Airport West, although I do believe it to be correct based on the above. Not being within 3,500 km of the State Library of Victoria, however, doesn't make it easy to verify - much of this stuff is still in dead wood form in library shelves. (A lot of the work I'm doing at the moment with WA articles could not be done without hours in the State Library here, which I'm presently doing to try and improve the articles this side of the black stump) One possibility would be to add the words "which does not itself contain an airport" as this is *clearly* verifiable from Australia Post's website. Orderinchaos78 02:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- There might special rules/laws for the actual operating airport, but do they state that land named "Melbourne Airport" somehow is not considered a locality because an airport operates there? That is what I was getting at. Melway uses officially gazetted place names and boundaries, and these are clearly shown for Melbourne Airport. Have you seen the Melway map? Compare it to how they handle the land occupied by Essendon Airport. I guess I have to check the official gazette at the State Library if Melway and the other sites I have linked to and which list Melbourne Airport as a locality are not enough. Asa01 03:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- The rules I alluded to clearly mention zoning and permission to build. The fact that this does not rest with the council but with a state planning authority and a federal set of regulations means it cannot be gazetted as a Land Act locality under the City of Hume, as it's not in fact under the City of Hume, but under those authorities. If Hume don't want something built there but they do, tough, it'll go there. Essendon Airport may be like Jandakot Airport in Perth, which is indeed under a local council and within the suburb of Jandakot. About the only special purpose locality I know of anywhere is Docklands, which has been gazetted as a locality under a non-LGA entity. Orderinchaos78 10:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Well if the designated land under the airport can never be an offical locality as you claim, then the article Melbourne Airport, Victoria probably needs to be deleted then. Asa01 22:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed - well, merged with the Melbourne Airport article, anyway. To see what's been done here - Perth Airport is not listed in Template:City of Belmont suburbs and its ,WA page is a redirect. Interestingly I just noticed Brisbane doesn't even have one, and its airport article notes it is in Eagle Farm, although Brisway marks it as a locality. (Incidentally, I own the entire set of *way products, for someone used to Streetsmart maps from WA they're a hell of a lot more readable and useful than the UBD. :) BTW here's Streetsmart map for Perth airport [7] Orderinchaos78 01:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Well if the designated land under the airport can never be an offical locality as you claim, then the article Melbourne Airport, Victoria probably needs to be deleted then. Asa01 22:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- The rules I alluded to clearly mention zoning and permission to build. The fact that this does not rest with the council but with a state planning authority and a federal set of regulations means it cannot be gazetted as a Land Act locality under the City of Hume, as it's not in fact under the City of Hume, but under those authorities. If Hume don't want something built there but they do, tough, it'll go there. Essendon Airport may be like Jandakot Airport in Perth, which is indeed under a local council and within the suburb of Jandakot. About the only special purpose locality I know of anywhere is Docklands, which has been gazetted as a locality under a non-LGA entity. Orderinchaos78 10:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- There might special rules/laws for the actual operating airport, but do they state that land named "Melbourne Airport" somehow is not considered a locality because an airport operates there? That is what I was getting at. Melway uses officially gazetted place names and boundaries, and these are clearly shown for Melbourne Airport. Have you seen the Melway map? Compare it to how they handle the land occupied by Essendon Airport. I guess I have to check the official gazette at the State Library if Melway and the other sites I have linked to and which list Melbourne Airport as a locality are not enough. Asa01 03:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
