Talk:Airline codes

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[edit] Encyclopedic?

I'm not sure that this list of airline codes is truly encyclopedic. DangerDoctor2 10:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Why not? Actually in going through and combining 3 articles into one, the exercise has been helpful in identifying various errors that would not show up in other places. Once the data is in a single place, a lot of cleanup to fix errors will be done. Vegaswikian 19:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup remaining

I 'finished' the merge of articles, I found and corrected many errors. Codes did not agree with the articles, article names differed in the code based articles. I corrected these as I found them. There is still some work remaining:

  1. The list needs to be sorted by airline name
  2. The IATA only codes need to be reformatted and added to the main table
  3. Missing airline links need to be verified since some are there with different names

Vegaswikian 19:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Astair/Interavia

Vegaswikian, as I see you are merging, editing, etc this list, I will leave this edit needed here for your info. Astair Airlines was named to Interavia Airlines in 2005. The IATA code is ZA. The ICAO code is SUW. The callsign is ASTAIR. You may want to update this as you progress. I will list any additional changes as I come across them. --Russavia 18:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Feel free to do the update as needed. This is a large task and I work on it when I have time. Any editor is welcome to help with the cleanup. In any case, information that is wrong should be corrcted when it is noticed. Vegaswikian 19:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Myanma Airways and Myanmar Airways International

These are 2 different airlines. Myanma Airways has IATA code of UB and ICAO of UBA and callsign of UNIONAIR. Myanmar Airways International has IATA of 8M ICAO of UBA and callsign of UNIONAIR. How to change this list to reflect this? --Russavia 12:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

  • You just need to add an entry for the one that is missing. I just did that. I will note that is seems odd to have the ICAO codes and call sign shared. Vegaswikian 18:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Sorry, thanks for adding it, I wasn't sure how to present it, so left it to you to make that call ;) Cheers --Russavia 07:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Are we sure? If they are different airlines and not different operating names of the same company they cant share the same ICAO Code and Callsign! according to ICAO Document 8585 Code UBA is listed as Myanama Airways. MilborneOne 21:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Absolutely sure. Myanma Airways (note it doesn't have R in Myanma) is the old Burma Airways. It used to be international but it is now only domestic, basically a Burmese army airline. Myanmar Airways International (and in fact all Myanmar airlines) are either fully or majority owned by Myanma Airways, but are totally independent companies. Myanmar Airways International used to fly with the code UB, which belongs to Myanma Airways, but now operates with 8M. The ICAO code and callsigns have not changed at all. Don't know why this is, but is probably due to Myanma Airways only flying domestic, and MAI only flying international. There is a lot of confusion with these 2 airlines, which is evident by looking at their articles (I just started the Myanma Airways one), even Flight International had no idea as to what the MAI fleet was, quoting both airlines' fleet as MAI. Also, you might want to bookmark this site, as I am using it over airlinecodes.co.uk (due it not being updated all that often). Website is http://www.airframes.org --Russavia 07:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
OK I understand what you have said, I still stand by the fact that two organisations cant have the same code, perhaps the Myanmar authorities have just ignored the ICAO rules. Perhaps the domestic flights just use the IATA code for business which is OK. Would agree that airframes.org is a good site I use it all the time for ICAO24 codes, but I use http://www.eurocontrol.int/icaoref/icao_8585_aircraft_operators_browse.jsp for codes and callsigns as it an official not an amateur site.MilborneOne 11:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that Myanmar Airways International now has a different ICAO code MMA. MilborneOne 11:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Airline codes was updated. Note any editor can update the table with updated or new information. BTW, anyone know if the call signs for those airlines are correct? Right now they both show being the same. Vegaswikian 18:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
MMA does not appear to have a callsign allocated in ICAO 8585 Edition 140 and the callsign is marked + which indicates assignment postponed (which I think means callsign to be allocated later). MilborneOne 19:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

This page is huge in terms of file size and took about 30 seconds to load on my work broadband computer. I know its nice to have it all on one page but the size makes it pretty inaccessible.Madmedea 09:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This information was broken down into lots of different pages for IATA Codes, ICAO Codes and callsigns, it has only just been created as a "large file" to try and better organise the information and allow it to be "sorted" on different elements. If anybody has a suggestion to break it up again without losing the link between the different threads then perhaps it should be discussed here. But I would suggest you are never going to satisfy everbody whatever way you choose. MilborneOne 11:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I can understand that this might be a difficult one, but the usability of the information is seriously compromised by the fact that some users will not be able to actually load the page. The simplist way to split it would be to use the alphabetical ordering by Airline or company which is currently used in the table and split it up by letter groups. But I'm very open to any other ideas.Madmedea 12:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
When the data was combined we found a lot of errors that had existed when the data was in multiple places. So there is justification for having it all on one page. In order to be able to view the data sorted by the various codes, which many users want, it needs to be displayed as one page. The data could be split out so that editing is faster, but that will not help the viewing times. A 300K file should download in about 5 seconds on a 512K line which is about the slowest broadband line (300,000*8/512,000). Any split solution needs to address the data accuracy problem. Vegaswikian 23:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I think I know how we can do this. Create subpages with the raw data sorted by airline name for each letter of the alphabet and one for the numbered airlines, 27 subpages. Then convert the main page to transclude all of the subpages. That gives us what we have now. Then create a navigation template that links to a page for the each of the subpages that would include some text and the table definition code so that the raw data would display correctly. This would allow a user to look at a group of airlines by name or as the complete list and sort it in several ways. So the full list would be available when needed and shorter lists would be available if someone only wanted to see a subset of the airlines. Vegaswikian 08:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a techie but the above suggestion sounds good. I know a 300k file should download in the time given above - or more quickly with higher broadband speeds - but I find in reality you never get the times you're meant to...Madmedea 09:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have timed it and it does take about 5 seconds. The balance of the time is spent in the browser doing something. I'll work on setting up the split over the weekend. I need to do some testing to make sure that it works. It will take a while to split the airlines off into pages sorted by name. Once I start getting the extra pages set up, then anyone can help with the sorting and splitting. Vegaswikian 20:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean we lose the ability to look up by ICAO or IATA code or callsign ? or do we have to look through 27 pages ?.MilborneOne 21:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
No. If you look at Airline codes-Z you will see all of the airline names that start with Z using the same layout as the main page, Airline codes. Both of those include the same subpage for the list of airlines. So just change the list of z airlines and the change will appear in both places. After I do a few more, I'll add a navigation template to allow you to select one or all from any of the pages. Airline codes will still display what is there today, you can also select airlines that begin with a letter of the alphabet. Vegaswikian 22:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, understood, looks like it could work.MilborneOne
OK I have this partially set up. Take a look at Airline codes-Z. The Y and Z pages are complete, still splitting out the As. The only issue I see is how to set this up so that you can edit the sub pages directly. Suggestions? Vegaswikian 08:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I see you have header and footer templates set up with a template for each letter's airlines. I would suggest starting each of the templates containing the actual lists with a row-spanning header, which would contain the letter and a link to edit that letter's list. It would read, for example, Z [edit]. BTW, IATA Airline Designators is an indirect redirect. Morgan Wick 10:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I used the full code, but you could use {{edit}}. Morgan Wick 11:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like a slow loader and would suggest split according to sections of alphabet to speed up. Consider that somebody searching for Flywhoosh.com will search under F for Fly and W for Whoosh. The airline calls itself Whoosh but, like Zoom, is popularly known with its Fly title also. No problem if the ICAO codes can quickly be looked up. I suggest DEFAULT presentation should be ICAO 3 letter codes - especially as some airlines like Whoosh and Manx2.com do not appear to have a known IATA 4 letter code. Reference by alphabetical NAME is just great. All the sites I know to date are not up to date on ICAO codes. Super work. Garigolf 14:11, 06 Jul 2007 (UTC)
Vegaswikian - I checked out your Z link. Absolutely super. Especially as the click/sort facility allows one to get results according to Alpha, ICAO, IATA or Country order. Still suggest default be Alpha with this wort set up. Good work. Garigolf 14:15, 06 Jul 2007 (UTC)
The default will be alpha. This is a two step process. The first is creating the template for each letter of the alphabet. I think that 5 are now done, including the two largest. For the second step, these still need to be arranged in alphabetical order. The other letter templates still need to be created and the entries moved over. This is a slow process with a lot of cut and pasting. I do these whenever I have some time. Now that the combined file is smaller, and loads more quickly for editing, it is becoming a bit easier to do. Vegaswikian 18:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes please. The page bogs the mediawiki server so much that it takes ages to download, and then the huge table gives my browser a hard time. Splitting the table into sections would probably alleviate the second problem. Han-Kwang 23:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm still working on this as time permits. Since the splitting requires searching through the file to find the items to move, it takes a while. It is a lot of cut and paste work that is not something I'm jumping at doing. I'll try and do one or two more tonight. If anyone wants to just create the sub templates, feel free to do so. If you are not sure how to add the page for the template, just drop a note here and someone should be able to create the new article page. Vegaswikian 02:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This also brings up a question. When the splitting is finished, should the default be to load the entire table or let the reader select a single letter to load? Vegaswikian 02:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I wrote a small perl-script to sort the table. Output at Talk:Airline codes/sorted temp. There might be an occasional error if there are non-ascii characters or ambiguous names (i didn't check), but I hope this saves you a lot of boring work. I'd say default to a fast-loading index, not the full table. Han-Kwang 06:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. All of the sub pages have been created. The All subpage has a few more that need to be moved around, the odds and ends from your output. Vegaswikian 07:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Entry cleanup

OK, the split is finished. In going through this, it looks like there is a lot of cleanup remaining, This includes items like:

  • RAF or Royal Air Force
  • for the RAF entries how to list for the various locations and names
  • fix links so that they go to a name following convention, so drop the inc. in the links
  • Move comments from the company name to comments
  • cleanup the airline name where it includes multiple names
  • Maybe change all of the foreign language names to their common English names leaving the foreign language in comments
  • All of the United States entries, various departments and the Army and coast guard and...

If anyone has the time... Vegaswikian 19:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Now the pages are hidden how do we edit the source pages please.MilborneOne 19:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Someone else moved them to templates since the bots kept trying to tag them as articles requiring cleanup and notabiltiy and several other tags. To edit one like the M section just edit Template:Airline codes/M. If you have a suggestion for including this on the page, please offer one. The ones I have are not what I consider workable, but then they may be better then nothing. Vegaswikian 20:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, I was sure I had edited them before ! MilborneOne 20:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Call sign confusion confusion

The following statement is absolute nonsense:

"Call sign confusion happens when two or more flights with similar flight numbers fly close to each other, i.e. KL645 and KL649 or BA466 and BA646".

This is nonsense for a number of reasons. For a start non of these identifiers is a call sign. A call sign is composed of the ICAO airline code, followed by a 4 digit octal code (with the series beginning with '7' being reserved for various emergencies such as depressurisation, hijack or radio failure) . The 4 digit code is determined when the flight plan is filed. It may, or may not remain the same for the entire flight, but it may also change for every sector that the aircraft enters (or anything in between). Whilst every attempt is made to keep the changes to a minimum (not least to minimise the the work of the pilots in changing the code), changes are nonetheless required in flight. It will depend on which numbers are already in use in the sectors that the aircraft enters, and which are already in use in other sectors under the same (or bordering) authority . Call sign confusion will have nothing to do with the closeness of the aircraft. Confusion could be caused if an aircraft enters a territory, and there is another in a different sector in the same territory which is squawking the same code. This may not always cause confusion, but it may and the aircraft may be hundreds of miles apart.

In short, the call sign exists primarily for air traffic control purposes.

Myredroom (talk) 10:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Callsigns are not 4 digit octal codes I think you may be confusing callsign with the transponder code. MilborneOne (talk) 13:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

In the world of ATC that I was exposed to, the word callsign always referred to the ICAO airine id plus the transponder code. I can accept that different user groups in the field derive different meaning from the same thing. This article itself does exactly this.; on the one hand it suggests that words like "speedbird" represent the callsign, and on the other it suggests that BA646 is a call sign. Myredroom (talk) 14:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Commercial airlines identify flights with the two digit IATA code and 1-4 numbers. When air traffic control contacts these aircraft, they use the call sign followed by the numeric part of the flight number. So say they are trying to contact AA9876, air traffic would call American 9876. On the radar screens, I believe, that the flight would show as AA9876 and that is tracked by the four character sqwak code that is assigned to the transponder and that transponder code could change. Now from your comment, an article probably needs to be updated. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

On all the radar screens I have seen (KARLDAP, MADAP), the "call sign" (as it was always referred to) displayed on (mode charlie) tracks was ICAO code plus transponder code. The IATA code made no appearance, not even on the flight strips. In the control room where I often found myself, communication with pilots was largely using ICAO code, with the frequent exception of Speedbird and Lufthansa and maybe one or two others (but dependent on the controller). Whilst a flight is active in a sector the IATA flight number has little meaning to the controller. Newer systems may vary, but in the world that I saw callsign uneqivocally referred to ICAO plus transponder code. Myredroom (talk) 04:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess I need to arrange for that control tower tour! In any case, it appears that there may be multiple uses of the phrase call sign. The way it has been used here is mostly for the radio call signs as in my example above. You are identifying another use. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
In the ATC system how does the 4-digit octal cope with alpha-numeric callsigns (Like "BAW4NQ") ? MilborneOne (talk) 12:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is that they do a mapping equating the assigned code to the call sign. So when you are getting ready to talk off, ATC assigns you a squawk code that you dial in. The system converts that to the aircraft call sign so that the ATC and the pilot use the call sign which for GA aircraft is usually the registration number and radar can track by the call sign. Are these assignments different in various parts of the world? If so, clearly we need an article to explain this to avoid confusion. Can any current pilots out there chime in? Vegaswikian (talk) 19:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Nothing really to do with this article then - transponder codes are described in Transponder (aviation) and related articles. MilborneOne (talk) 20:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry the octal transponder code has nothing to do with the callsign and is not the same thing. When the ATC system first receives the octal code from the secondary radar it looks up the callsign in the flight planning computer and presents the aircraft radio callsign onto the radar screen. This presents the controller with the info he need to communicate by radio with the aircraft as described by Vegaswikian. So it is possible to get callsign confusion and have two aircraft American 52 or United 52 on at the same time. In Europe alpha numeric callsigns have been introduced to avoid this type of confusion. Thus the radio callsign does not allways agree with the timetabled flight number. Ryanair Flight RYR556 from Dublin to Manchester uses the radio callsign RYR5XA. MilborneOne (talk) 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)