Talk:Airbus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article has an assessment summary page.
Wikipedia CD Selection Airbus is either included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version (the project page is at WPCD Selection). Please maintain high quality standards, and if possible stick to GFDL images. However, if you can improve the article, please do so!
This article had its chronology/history sources verified On: Sep 05 2007
by WP Timeline Tracer

Contents

[edit] Archives

Talk: Airbus/Archive1 - Archived up to end of Dec 2005

[edit] 2005 Orders and Deliveries

This article is incorrect in asserting that Airbus won more orders than Boeing last year. There's an inaccurate graph and it's mentioned several times in the article.

Sources of proper data

http://www.justplanes.com/orders.htm

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaystandardreport.cfm&RequestTimeout=500&optReportType=AnnOrd&pageid=m15521

Airbus claims 1,111 orders, but it uses vague language like "order commitments" and other terms when describing how it gets those numbers. Boeing only reports firm orders.

Further discussion of the distinction, related to 787 vs. A350:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2783464/6/#ID2783464 Replys 17, 50, 53, 54, 59

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2756788/6/#ID2756788 Replys 2, 6, 9-17, 19-23, 25-29, 34-35, 37, 39 L-1011 02:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Of the links above only the Boeing one is a Reliable Source as defined in WP. If Boeing had received deposits for the 70 planes but chose to wait for them to be allocated I don't see why that's Airbus' fault. Boeing counted plenty of unallocated orders placed by leasing companies once deposits had been paid. What makes a governmental order so special? Was it because Boeing were so sure they would win the orders race that they wanted an excuse to push some over into 2006? Who knows, point is Boeing seem to be the ones counting inconsistenty not Airbus. Nordicremote 20:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The graph and the text are inconsistent. The graph says it is net orders and shows 1111 for 2005. The text says 1055 net. 68.126.176.248 05:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed following paragraph

"An other reason is that Airbus have no product which matches Japanese capanies' requirement. For example, a A330-200 can offer 256 to 293 seats while a 777-200 can offer at least 358 to 415 seats. Since the Japanese needs high capacity aircraft, A330-200 is too difficult to be a Japanese's choice. An other example is that A380 is a plane which fits Japanese truck routes. However, the Japanese companies are changing their focus from capacity per single flight to overall flight frequency. This means selling A380 to Japanese is now more difficult. Airbus' products are suitable fo all over the world but can't fit the needs of Japanese airlines since Airbus has no intension to make products which specially fits Japaneses' requirement."

This is very poorly written. If anyone wants to try to extract any useful information from this and add it back, go ahead. For now it is too poorly written and confusing to be a useful contribution to this article. Manufracture 18:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More comment on Japan bit

And indeed, overall, the long bit about Japan, introduces significant bias in the article as:

1) it is one of the few captive markets where Boeing is not in danger of losing ground to Airbus (with Israel's market),

2) it represents 10% of the expected market 2004-2024 (Boeing outlook reports) - significant (ANA was "launch customer" for 787), but not essential

3) it exclusively presents in a positive way the "close manufacturing partnership between Boeing and several Japanese consortiums", without highlighting the downsides such as: Japanese governement subsidies (unsurprisingly, "The EU has protested Japan's public-sector financing of Boeing as violating international trade agreements and placing the Airbus at a disadvantage." - article on japanfocus.org), possible transfer of some Boeing manufacturing volume from US to Japan, and definite transfer of know-how -- which could lead to a Japan or Asian competitor to Airbus and Boeing in the long term.

(post-signing: Crepusculaire 06:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC))


[edit] Airbus anonymous editor

An editor made a series of anonymous edits at Airbus and Boeing just a few minutes ago. Their IP address was 195.6.25.118, which belongs to Airbus SAS. I don't know if this is the first occurrence, but it strikes me as an enormous conflict of interest. Perhaps Boeing employees have done the same thing, but they haven't yet been caught at it. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 13:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Airbus employees are probably the most qualified to contribute to a page on "Airbus", so it is not a problem per se, IMHO. The real problem was: the edits that you specifically and correctly reverted, these edits were entirely made for claiming first place with respect to Boeing. Maybe there should be a site http://www.who-is-the-best-in-the-world-airbus-or-boeing-today.com/ updated in real time so that wikipedia can link here —Crepusculaire 06:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for a negative A350 comment?

An anonymous edit from IP address 63.138.11.3, states: "The A350, Airbus's A330 derivative competitor to the [Boeing 787], has been criticized by aviation experts for being non-competitive with the Boeing product." I don't know if citing an opinion of (some? most of?) experts in the field is acceptable on Wikipedia, but at least there should be some sources mentioned. Otherwise, the whole edit smells like a partial job.

There are tons of sources on this. It's a major controversy in the aviation industry. The anonymous user's only mistake was not including the tons of references already cited at Airbus A350. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 14:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I made a short review and confirm that the original statement can be backed up. A convincing way might be to look at the analysis in [1]. It reports the agreement of Steven F. Udvar-Hazy of International Lease Finance Corporation and Henry Hubschman of GE Capital Aviation Services that the A350 is inferior to the 787. These companies are competitor on the plane leasing market. They have a fleet of 800 and 1300 planes respectively, which is important compared to the world total fleet (about 15000 ?) - also ILFC is Airbus biggest customer (as in "largest Airbus fleet"). The reference quotes a forecast of 25% for the market of the A350. To this date, the number of orders are 388 for the Boeing 787 and 182 for the Airbus A350 (firm+pending) and much more options are reported for the 787 —Crepusculaire 06:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airliner Deliveries Table formatting

Can someone alter the tables to co incide with the formattng of the above tables?


Reedy Boy 07:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current event

I'm removed the "current event" tag from this article for two reasons.

  1. . No specific event has been cited since at least March 2006.
  2. . This article is about a company, not an event involving this company.

--Marysunshine 00:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Upon further reading, I stand corrected. The BAE non-completed sale could technically count as a business current event...although, to my thinking, it's still not really an "event" until something happens (i.e., the stock is bought). Please consider removing the tag until the sale is completed.--Marysunshine 00:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

When the stock is sold by BAE/bought by EADS that will be the end of the event. The event is the sale process. Recent relevent events were:
  • (As added to the BAE Systems article) BAE originally sought to agree a price with EADS through an informal process. However due to the slow pace of negotiations and disagreements over price, BAE stated on May 2 2006 that it was setting a 30 day deadline for agreement after which it would exercise its "put option". This would initiate a formal process which involves the appointment of advisers to determine a fair value. The Financial Times suggests this process should be completed by the end of June. [2]
  • At the BAE AGM on Thursday shareholders attacked the Chairman Dick Olver over the sale. [3] --Mark83 09:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airliner Deliveries Table Splitting

Does Anyone else agree that it would be worth moving all the airliner deliveries tables onto a seperate Page?

Such as Airbus airliner deliveries?

Reedy Boy 10:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about the name, but yes, good idea in principle. --Mark83 16:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


Airbus Deliveries?

I thought it sounded strange also

Reedy Boy 16:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


Airbus Deliveries and Orders?

We need to get it done, as i've made the tables, and it is making the article a little messy.

If there's been no comments in the next couple of Days, i will use Airbus Deliveries and Orders

Reedy Boy 18:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


Moved, it was starting to annoy me! Reedy Boy 13:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Product list and details (date information from Airbus)

A310 Production Stopped in 1998 didn't it?

That was the last one off the production line according to information from Airbus

Why does it say production will cease July 2007?

I know that is the case for the A300, which is still being produced, just in limited numbers

Reedy Boy 16:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the A310 is/was still available to order along with the A300, just no one brought it. The A310 and A300 are so closely related perhaps Airbus considers them as one aircraft.

Nope. There are still 5 deliveries pending, scheduled for 2007. However, I'm not sure about the version, either freigther or military freighter/tanker. No pax version. Don't now, to whom they are sold.

[edit] How does one distinguish between an Airbus and a Boeing ?

This may be a stupid question, but here goes: Are there any clear differences in the construction of Boeing and Airbus planes that let one easily distinguish between the two? In other words, if there is an Airbus and a Boeing painted white all over, how can one distinguish between them ?

That's a good question. I personally don't think you can say there's an Airbus-esque or Boeing-esque design trait which allows you to differentiate. I think however that individual models do allow you to distinguish between them. For example anyone who's ever seen a movie should be able to pick the 747 between a picture of a 747 and an A380! The A320/737 families are quite distinctive. Like I say, good question, looking forward to other comments! Mark83 13:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Mark is correct, there is no single characteristic that identifies a plane as Boeing or Airbus. However, many of their models are distinctive, and once you know what type of aircraft it is, you know who built it. The 737/A320s can be told apart because their noses are shaped differently, the 737s have engine nacelles which are flattened at the bottom, and a kink in the tailfin. The A340 is the only single-deck aircraft with four engines, it's very easy to spot. The 747 and A380 are too easy :) The 757 has a very distinctive shape - it seems to sit very high on its wheels when on the ground, and has a thin fuselage. As for telling the 767/777/A330/A300 apart, I haven't found any clear distinctions yet... — QuantumEleven 17:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
---
First off, I am glad I am not the only one who had that question. Thanks Mark and QuantumEleven! I always look at the plane I am about to get into and wonder what it is. Hate waiting to check on that till I get to my seat. I have a few things to add, I will summarize what we have so far:
1) B777 - Six wheels on each landing gear, blade like tailcone
2) B747 - Obvious, 2 decks with a 'hump'
3) B737 - Some (pre-2004) have 'eyebrow' windows (small additional windows above the main cockpit windows), some also have winglets
4) B727 - T-shaped tail
5) A380 - Obvious
6) A340 - Single deck with 4 engines
Anything else - about the B757/B767/B720/B717/B707;A350/330/318/319/A320/A321/A310/A300 ? One may be able to tell planes apart (like Mark said - 737/A320s), but are there any individual (visual) features of the rest (B757/B767/B720/B717/B707;A350/330/318/319/A320/A321/A310/A300) ?
Again, thanks Mark and QuantumEleven. Also, is this the right page to ask this ?
737, 757, 767, 777, A300, A310, A320-family, A330, 2 engines mounted under the wings, 707, 747, A340, four engines
717, 727 T-tail
737 no winglets or big winglets - 320-family small wingtips (except the first ones built)
321 four exits each side, 320 2 big exits, 2 smaller ones over the wing, 319 2 big exits, 1 smaller one over the wing, 318 like 319 but bigger tail
--84.157.146.37 08:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
767, 777, A300, A310, A330, A340 are wide-body aircraft, they look bigger than narrow-bodies (737, 757, A320ies) --84.157.146.37 10:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


A common airbus attribute is the dihedral (sp?) arrowhead winglet used on aircraft such as the A320 family (i know they are moving towards the more common ones like the 737). Also, the 737 in particular has a much more pointed nosecone than the 320. Same for the 767. Its just one of those things you come to recognise! Reedy Boy 11:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the site is out of date

Boeing has recieved more orders than Airbus in 06. More importantly, the A380 has been delayed, will cost more, which is causing many pre-production orders to be either canceled or Beoing 777's being ordered.

No orders have been cancelled. Mark83 11:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Delays are causing an increase in Boeing sales/costing Airbus more money and over all is having a detrimental effect on Airbus.

[edit] Aircraft Matrix - Boeing vs. Airbus vs. Others

I have created a aircraft matrix that lists airlines, sorted by the size of thier fleet, which aircraft from Airbus, which aircraft from Boeing, and other aircraft in thier fleet. It can be found at user:Mnw2000/Airlines-Aircraft Matrix. I think it should be link at Airbus, Boeing, Embarer, etc. as well as all alines pages. Can some assist me in that effort?

Here is a sample:

Airlines Fleet Airbus Boeing Others
Lufthansa 429 A300, A319, A320, A321, A330, A340 737, 747 CRJ200

--marc 18:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)--[user:mnw2000]

This will rapidly deteriorate into unmaintainability, I'm afraid. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Couldn't agree more, it's hard enough to get full details on current fleets sometimes, never mind keep up to date with future changes. Mark83 19:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually keeping a single chart is easier than trying to keep 100+ airline fleets up-to-date. I will keep my user version available for my own purposes for now. I also would like to hear more comments. --marc 20:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC) user:mnw2000

I would have no problem helping to try and keep it up to date! Reedy Boy 11:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking at your matrix there are already glaring errors in there, i agree that it is likely to only deteriorate. skyskraper 06:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Competition with airbus

I removed the last sentence about a380, there were no links and the sentence is inconsequential and misplaces. I realise that thi section is trying to be balanced but it comes across like people are trying to say "Yeah but Beoing does this and has these figures" instead of hard facts which would make this section truly NPOV

[edit] Launch Aid

An extensive analysis of U.K. Launch Aid 1945--2005 has been published: Kaivanto (2006) "Premise and practice of UK Launch Aid," Journal of World Trade 40(3), pp. 495-525. http://ssrn.com/abstract=739719

This is the first substantial *independent* analysis of U.K. Launch Aid since Gardner's (1976) "Economics of Launching Aid".

[edit] New Ceo !!!!

I just went to airbus' homepage and airbus' has a new CEO.

Yes, Louis Gallois was named Airbus CEO. He's still an EADS CEO as well. — QuantumEleven 15:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eurodates

Looking at this article and others related to Airbus, I am puzzled as to why they use U.S. date format (month-day-year), when all participating countries use International Dating format (day-month year). The Manual of Style indicates that articles should use the style appropriate for the country, and I consider U.S. Dating inappropriate for these articles. I have already discussed this with regard to the A380 article, made the changes after gaining approval and am happy to keep on going with the rest. --Pete 18:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Being a European myself, I prefer day-month-year, and that's what I see on this page. Might I suggest that you click on "my preferences" and check that you have selected the relevant date format? Mark83 00:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The question of date formats has been extensively discussed at the Manual of Style. While registered users may set their preferences accordingly, most Wikipedia readers are not registered. --Pete 10:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Changes completed. --Jumbo 03:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Airbus cross section picture

This picture is not listed on the Airbus page, but I hoped someone here might be able to identify it. I have a picture of an Airbus fuselage cross-section (at right), but I cannot quite remember which model it is. I think it's an A300, but can anyone confirm this? The picture is from the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany, if that helps. Thanks. Asiir 14:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The A300, A310, A330, A340, and A350 Mks. I-IV all have the same cross section. It could be representative of any of those models. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 15:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. Asiir 16:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical citations

The History section could benefit from citations Heltzen 20:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

If I promise to help will you remove that hideous template?! Mark83 21:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
We move it down for a while ? Heltzen 21:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orders

We should not accept justplanes.com as a proper reference when listing current orders. During the years 1989 to 2006, only finalized orders are shown in the orders box. Justplanes.com uses letters of intent and other factors when deciding their final numbers and tend to over estimate orders by 30%-40% from the official tally from Airbus and Boeing. We should only use official tallies from Airbus and Boeing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.180.189 (talk) 21:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Airbus wins US Refuelling order

Just heard on BBC Radio 2 news that Airbus has just won a big US government order for refuelling aircraft - Boeing is said to be going to appeal the decision - see here: [4] Ian Dunster (talk) 09:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revenue information is lacking

The article currently includes this information under "Revenue": USD 181,1 billion (2007)

No net revenue versus gross revenue information is shown, which I find odd for such a well publicized company. 67.158.175.22 (talk) 19:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

According to EADS "Annual Review 2006" [5], the Airbus revenue for 2006 was 25 190 million euros (~39Bn$). This is not even close to the 180Bn$ revenue currently claimed by this article. I am therefore updating the article to reflect the new figures. --Fredrik Orderud (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)