Talk:Air force

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[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

Given such a general umbrella topic, I am not sure how much more can be or should be said, without going into too much detail about any one particular air force. Nevertheless, this article looks pretty short and unpolished. LordAmeth 17:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School

Why is there no mention of the United States Air Force Academy? Wikipediarules2221 23:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the general concept of an Air Force, not the United States Air Force in particular. Links to the Academy would be found at Wikipedia's page on the US Air Force. Impi 06:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World's First Independent Air Force?

At present we have "The first independent air force in the world, however, is The Finnish Air Force, founded on 6 March 1918." Although the information is cited, can this really be correct as its first commander (Carl Seber) held the rank of Army Captain and the Finnish Air Force recieved its first aeroplane as a donation at some stage in 1918? Compare this with the newly established RAF which had over 20,000 aircraft on its establishment, a separate government ministry (the Air Ministry) and a Chief of the Air Staff (Hugh Trenchard) who held the rank of Major General in 1918.Greenshed 00:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some references which support the RAF first claim:

Even in Finland the Finnish Air Force is said to be the second independent Air Force in the World, after the Raf. 62.183.251.50 06:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
If Finland's air force home page says it's 6 march 1918 then it very likely is. It may sound "dubious" because fi was/is such a small low profile country but the source seems reputable. 83.102.66.104 16:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
But was it an independent air force? Following on from my comments above, I find it almost inconcievable that Seber (a junior officer) reported direct to the Finnish Government regarding the use of one aircraft, for which they didn't pay, without reference to the Finish Army or Navy commanders. Greenshed 22:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the ranks of the Finnish Air Force and Finnish Army are same, except private has a different title. So the claim that he was "just an army captain" is dubious, since today there are captains in the air force. I'm sure the RAF commander also had some army background there, so he was just an army major general? Sure the Finnish Air Force was weak in its early years but it still was a seperate branch. The 1918 Finnish Air Force is still in principle the same as modern day FAF. The commander of FAF, Heikki Lyytinen has exactly the same position as the March 1918 commander. Also, Seber was the second commander. The first one was John-Allan Hygerth, who was appointed as the Commander of the Finnish Air Force on March 10, 1918. He was appointed the rank of a captain. --Pudeo⺮ 21:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Army captain. The only point I was trying to make was that Seber (or Hygerth - thanks for the information) was a junior officer as per the army use of the rank as opposed to the naval use of the rank captain. The significance of this is that it does not seem that unlikely that an officer with the seniority of a naval captain could command an independent branch of nation's armed forces. As I have stated above, it seems rather unlikely that a junior officer could be in such a position.
  • Position of the FAF commander. It is stated above that the present commander of the FAF has exactly the same position as the March 1918 commander. I am not disputing that the FAF was founded before the RAF, or that the various commanders have had complete authority over the whole air force from 1918 to the present day. My concern is that the relationship of the FAF commander to the heads of the Finnish Army, Navy and the Government has changed.
  • Resolving the conflict without Original Research. There are clearly credible references which indicated that the RAF was the world's first independent air force (see above) and there is at least one credible reference which indicates that the FAF was the world's first independent air force. For editors just to compare the dates and then decide that the FAF was first amounts to Original Research which we must avoid. My reason for this statement is that the term independent may be being used in different ways and what we really need is a source on the history of air forces which addresses this question. Greenshed 22:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, can't we just call both, RAF and FAF just "one of the earliest independent air forces"? Or do we just have to name the other as the oldest, eventhough it's controversial? (See the latest history to RAF, my edits) Mostly likely many references ignore the foundation of a small air force of a small country. --Pudeo⺮ 09:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
To state that the RAF and FAF are each one of the earliest independent air forces is a good short-term solution. However, the identity of the oldest independent air force is something which certain readers are likely to want to know and if we can verifiably state this in the Wikipedia then that would be good. In terms of establishing which air force it is, I do accept that many references might ignore the foundation of a small air force of a small country. However, it remains my contention that the size of the FAF (is one aircraft an air force?) and seniority of its commander in 1918 makes it a dubious claimant. Greenshed 23:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone provide credible citations for the following?

  • The first Finnish Air Force commander did not report to a senior officer in the Finnish Army (or Navy).
  • The Finnish Air Force budget for the period 6 March to 1 April 1918 was funded direct from the Finnish Government and not drawn from the Finnish Army (or Navy) budget.

If so, then I think we can say that the Finnish Air Force gained its independence before the Royal Air Force; if not, then its claim looks very dubious. We still would need to caveat the "air force" claim as the common sense meaning of the term implies several aircraft. Greenshed 21:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The history section is quite scant. I would like to see someone build this up.

71.79.98.90 SharedProxy (talk) 22:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)