Talk:Air France Flight 4590

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Contents

[edit] Text moved

Much of the text was moved from the Concorde article. WhisperToMe 17:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Death count

I just noticed that this contradicts the Concorde article on the number of deaths on the ground. This article says 4 people on the ground were killed, Concorde says 5. Fabiform 14:43, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Correct on-the-ground death toll is 4. This article is correct, I will proceed to correct the information on the other article (if it hasn't already been rectified). Redux 02:13, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Picture incorrect?

The second picture is incorrect! It is fliped vertically. The plane was starting in the direction shown on the first picture. The amateur movie made form taxi running near the airport, form which the second pictre cames, clearly shows plane starting in the opposite direction than pictured on second photo.

I don't know, if it is important. I only wanted to notice you about this. Maybe someone wishes to correct this photo.

Trejder 10:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you are right. This pic was very widely published at the time. Wasn't it simply taken from the other side? --Guinnog 11:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you're right! I looked at [1] link, provided in External Links section, and miss-recognised the picture. After a close look it seems to be correct - looking by which engine is in fire. I believe that your explanation is very good - this picture was probably taken from the other side. Trejder 09:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

why do you insist that the spelling is "tyre" instead of "tire"? Just to let you know, "tire" is the correct spelling in Modern Standard English, while "Tyre" is a city is southern Lebanon. I don't see why you inserted a request for people to not correct you on your orthographic error, as it degrades the quality of the article.--Retroandi 14:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I have replied on your talk page, but basically the policy you are not 'getting' here is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wp:mos#National_varieties_of_English
HTH --Guinnog 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the clarification

While I appreciate your inclusion of a source to validate the use of "tyre" in your article, it would lend more weight if you reference something other than a Wikipedia article, such as the Oxford English Dictionary [2]. Also, perhaps we should both contact Wikipedia for their orthographical rules concerning articles in English; no doubt there have been arguements similar to ours with regards to other words. Retroandi 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hehehehe...this is just the tip of the iceburg. Orange (colour) has been the site of a contentious color/colour war; flavor/flavour over at potato chips; gasoline/petrol over at gasoline; all documented at WP:LAME. Hbdragon88 08:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The rule usually is, we go with the more popular, commonly recognized usage. Tire is more widely known than tyre, according to the discussion on the article "Tire". Hence, this article should reflect that. jparenti 00:04, 04 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the rule is usualy that we go by whatever is correct. In this case, tyre is correct. Also, bear in mind tire is derived from tyre. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 11:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length of metal wrong?

it was said in "Seconds from Disaster" that the shard of metal was exactally 42cm long, whereas the article says about 50, i'm not editing i right away because i'm not sure if i am correct or not as the metal was curved...

I don't know about the length but the width is given as 30 mm. Why different dimension? 3 cm by 50 cm is easy to visualize than giving one parameter in mm. I'm changing the width to 3 cm. Correct me if I'm wrong. Saurabh Sardeshpande 17:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continental's statement about the strip's legality

I inserted [citation needed] and after a while removed the following unsourced statement:

However, Continental Airlines maintains that FAA regulations do allow the use of the titanium strip[citation needed] and added that this metal was more wear-resistant than the original part.[citation needed]

If anyone has a valid reference, please supply it and re-insert. Thanks, Crum375 13:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Well done for this. --Guinnog 20:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 07:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It is very good to see videos of many of the incidents that Wikipedia refers to, and 99% of the time YouTube is the place to see them. Surely the onus is on YouTube users to verify copyright, not on those who link to it? If for some silly legal reason that is not the case, could we say, for example, "to see a film of this, put 'concorde' and 'crash' into YouTube's search engine"? That definitively puts the onus on the stuffed shirts to prove there aren't non-copyrighted clips of the crash. - AG, Stockport, UK.

[edit] Alternative Theories; Chirac - Bush?

This looks like repeated vandalism concerning Bush - it's totally irrelevant. And I think it would be a good idea to require reference for the Chirac story as I believe this constitutes only a claim made in a book "Supersonic Secrets" and never elsewhere confirmed... Jimbomu 16:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)jimbomu

[edit] Poorly sourced

I removed the following poorly sourced or unsourced section (mentioning unnamed sources in the only reference provided):

Alternative Theories: British investigators and former French Concorde pilots looked at several other possibilities that the report ignored, including an unbalanced weight distribution in the fuel tanks and loose landing gear. They came to the conclusion that the Concorde veered off-course on the runway, which reduced take-off speed below the crucial minimum. The aircraft had veered very close to a Boeing 747 known to be carrying French President Jacques Chirac. They argued that the Concorde was in trouble before takeoff, as it was overweight for the given conditions, with an excessively aft center of gravity and taking off downwind. Moreover, it was missing the crucial spacer from the left main landing-gear beam that would have made for a snug-fitting pivot. This compromised the alignment of the landing gear and the wobbling beam and gears allowing three degrees of movement possible in any direction. The uneven load on the left leg’s three remaining tires skewed the landing gear disastrously, with the scuff marks of four tires on the runway showing that the plane was skidding out of control. These investigators were frustrated by the lack of cooperation from French authorities, including an unwillingness to share data and the immediate resurfacing of Concorde's takeoff runway after the crash. They alleged that the BEA was determined to place the sole blame of the accident on the titanium strip to show that Concorde itself was not at fault. The BEA's interim report maintained that the leftward yaw was caused not by incorrectly assembled landing gear but by loss of thrust from the number 1 and 2 engines. Data from the Flight Data Recorder Black Box indicates that the aircraft was centred on the runway and accelerating normally up until the point where the tyre burst occurred. The instantaneous wind speed at the closest anemometer to the take-off point was recorded as zero knots.[3]

I suggest that we either find better named sources for this, or keep it out, per our strict sourcing rules required when living people are involved. Crum375 16:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The British newspaper The Observer commissioned its own investigation into the accident that was highly skeptical of the official report, and this is evidently what is being referred to here. The gist of the report was that the plane was far over MTOW, its load was dangerously rear-heavy, and there was a spacer missing from its left wheelcarriage, all of which caused it to remain on the runway for too long without reaching the minimum rotate speed, while veering too far to the left; only due to these problems, which could have caused the catastrophe by themselves, did it strike the titanium strip from the DC-10, which was located much further down the runway than the Concorde usually travels during takeoff. It's at [4]. An article from Air Safety Week corroborates some of these points [5]. Here's another article, though from a personal website, that makes the point about the spacer: [6].
The Observer theory deserves mention in the article; it's certainly noteworthy and reasonably compelling. I may re-add this section with better sourcing and phrasing, unless someone else would prefer to. ProhibitOnions (T) 11:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate crash theories

I removed this from the Concorde article as it is far too detalied for an article on the plane itself. I placed it here as I have not edited this page, and I don't know if this piece has been considered before. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other theories on the Paris crash

British and former French Concorde pilots looked at several other possibilities that the report ignored, including an unbalanced weight distribution in the fuel tanks and loose landing gear. They came to the conclusion that the Concorde veered course on the runway, which reduced take-off speed below the crucial minimum. (The aircraft had swerved towards a Boeing 747 carrying French President Jacques Chirac.) They argued that the Concorde was in trouble before takeoff, as it was overweight for the given conditions, with an excessively aft centre of gravity and taking off downwind. It was also missing the spacer from the left main landing-gear beam. This compromised the alignment of the landing gear. The uneven load on the left leg’s three remaining tyres skewed the landing gear disastrously, with the scuff marks of four tyres on the runway showing that the plane was skidding out of control. The BEA's interim report maintained that the leftward yaw was caused not by incorrectly assembled landing gear but by loss of thrust from the number 1 and 2 engines.[7]

The link provided is dead. Unless there is a valid reliable source for this, it cannot be included. Crum375 16:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Oops. I forgot to check that, or I would have simply tossed it right then. thanks! - BillCJ 17:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There are more sources on it now.GoldDragon 02:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the 'alternative theories' section because by totally refuting the conclusions of the extensive official investigation and report, it is making exceptional claims. And according to WP:V we need exceptional sources to support exceptional claims. In this case, such sources would be highly regarded news publications, official government agencies or reputable scientific bodies. Just a bunch of conspiracy web sites, or tabloids, or blogs, are not 'exceptional sources'. If these theories have not been published by mainstream media, odds are their publishers decided that the information is not sufficiently valid for them, and our own threshold for validity is no lower than theirs. Crum375 02:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a large enough number of differing sources, not all of them are tabloids or blogs. Former Concorde test pilots were interviewed in the Observer article, and that should be considered highly regarded, and that is also posted on the International Aviation Safety Association. [8] GoldDragon 03:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I should perhaps also mention that, according to the Discovery Channel documentary, the BEA was pretty relunctant to share information with the British or the former Concorde test pilots, perhaps a cover-up? Obviously, as only one official agency (the BEA) was allowed to investigate, that meant that the Concorde test pilots had an unofficial investigation, but we should not discount that. GoldDragon 03:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The primary criterion is not quantity, but quality. We need high caliber sources, the one you included above is effectively an online forum, where someone posted what appears to be a copy of an article from the Observer. This is not a high caliber source by any means, and for this type of exceptional claim, we need an exceptional source, which it certainly isn't. A bunch of pilots performing an investigation of a crash would not be a reliable source at all, although it would depend on their publishing venue. Crum375 03:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 2 is the Guardian tabloid; 3 is a blog; 4 is a personal website with no editorial oversight; 5 is a dead link. Only the Guardian comes close to being a reliable source. If you want to retain this minority view, you can relate some of that article's info. However, the other material has to go. Keep in mind that this is a remarkably minority conspiracy theory, and warrants perhaps a sentence or two of coverage here. --EEMeltonIV 03:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. As I noted above, this conspiracy theory is an exceptional claim, and blogs or pilots performing crash investigations are not exceptional sources. I suggest that this issue be discussed here prior to inclusion in the article, with emphasis on high quality 'exceptional' sources. Crum375 13:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I third that. Only deserves a few sentences as an extreme minority view, under a title of 'alternative theories' or the like. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 16:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The Observer article is terrible. "Gilles Jardinaud, the flight engineer, shut down the ailing number two engine. Both French and British pilots say it was another disastrous mistake, which breached all set procedures. The engine itself was not on fire, and as the tank emptied and the fire burnt itself out, it would probably have recovered." That's crazy talk. Lipsticked Pig 17:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I would only include such a section after we have exceptional sourcing for it. The conspiracy theorists are alleging malfeasance on the part of the investigators, who are living people, and thus this has BLP implications also. Again, if this theory has any credibility, the mainstream press would pick it up, and we can then cite those reliable sources. If the mainstream press is hesitating, so should we. Crum375 17:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, we do need decent sources - but all we need to do is find a reliable source that mentions the alternative theory as existing, even without going into much detail and possibly even rejecting the theory themselves. Such a thing is bound to exist somewhere. Still, I agree, based on what I know of air crashes, that thus far all I've seen on this 'alternative theory' is complete bullshit. Sorry for speaking my mind, but we really shouldn't shy away from it when it is warranted, and I feel it was warranted there. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 17:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Concur. Also, at this point, it's probably best to wait for a consensus here before attempting to post the section again. We don't need to get in to a minor revert "police action" while discussion is still ongoing. - BillCJ 17:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I concur with the need for exceptional sources. One of the things that sticks in my craw is that if this were a legitimate effort by pilots from both AF and BA to contest the official findings, and it had solid backing, both pilots' unions would be heavily involved, as well. They have clout and they easily could have gotten significant media attention. That simply isn't the case here. A tidbit of trivia: the DC-10 that dropped the rubstrip was CO's N13067. When CO started to park their DC-10 fleet, this aircraft was one of the first to come here to Mojave for storage. Less than 3 weeks later, it was already being parted out, one of the fastest part-out sequences of any of the -10s. CO was in a big hurry to get rid of the thing. I was told by the on-site CO rep that the offending engine had been pulled immediately after the incident and was still in quarentine due to the on-going litigation. When 067 was cut up, a friend of mine an I were able to salvage a few pieces off it...he got one of the N numbers, and I have a chunk of skin in the garage from just above the L4 door with the fleet number, "067" on it. My wife just shakes her head.... AKRadeckiSpeaketh 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


>>"26 SEP 2000 A lawyer representing some of the 113 people killed in July`s Air France Concorde crash said he would sue Continental Airlines based on evidence from a preliminary report into the disaster. (Reuters)"<<

I wonder if this was part of the reasoning for scrapping the 10 so fast and if maybe we could add it into the article. Where are the Reuters sourced from exactly? I can find it mentioned in many web pages all over but with the need for exceptional sources it should come from the main source I think.


I found this site with links to the BEA reports: http://www.concordesst.com/accident/report.html
I also am confused because Concorde should have been able to continue to fly with only two engines. I did read somewhere that there was a problem with losing power from engines 3 and 4 but can't find the source. It was something about ingesting fuel wash. Anybody know where this was. I can't find it anywhere now. UB65 (talk) 04:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name of hotel

I wonder what the name of the hotel the Concorde crashed into really was. This article has alternatively "Les Relais Bleus" and "Hotelissimo". Of the references, CNN quotes French media for Relais; the French Wikipedia, Aviation-safety.net, and other articles on BBC have Hotelissimo; others (including the BEA report) have "hotel" or nothing. I have no idea, but would guess Hotelissimo is correct. Klehti 08:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

A bit of googling (and straining my French) produced this quote: "Une roue du train d’atterrissage est dressée vers le ciel à quelques mètres de l’hôtel voisin, le Relais Bleu, miraculeusement intact", quoted here: [9]. So it would be quite safe to change Relais to Hotelissimo, I think. Klehti 08:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)