Talk:Air (visual novel)/Archive 3

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Archive 3
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Contents

GA nomination

I have nominated Air (series) for Good Article status.---- (十八) 05:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, good work! There is hope for Air in Wikipedia after all! _dk 05:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to actually review the article since I've worked on it, but I felt I should make a few minor points:

  • We seriously need to find somewhere to get real reviews for visual novels. A review on gamefaqs is really pushing it. hentai.co.uk I'm on the fence about. I bet Famitsu has a review, but it's damn hard to search for it when you're working with such a simple title.
Getchu.com is regarded as the most reliable VN review site, I believe. It has reviews of most games as well as sales information (very helpful). Moogy (talk) 14:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I have checked there in the past, but their records begin around 2004 when Fate/stay night, Shuffle! and Clannad were just coming out. The main trouble here is how old Air is and that none of the more recent Air games have made it on any of their lists, or any that I could find...Thanks for reminding me about getchu though; I'll check again later to see if I can find anything.---- (十八) 22:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The quote in the plot section needs soucing. I know that it's basically the tagline for the series, but the casual reader won't. I'm not quite sure if it needs to be included anyways; taglines have been phased out of most articles.
  • Can we get a better picture of the Air girls? That one is kinda unclear. I think there's a cloud or something that's distorting the lower half. It also seems a little too dark when small.
  • Mention how there is a "Best" version of the PS2 port. I'm not quite sure what that means exactly, but I think it's like the Player's Choice or Greatest Hits of Japan.

Nothing too major, everything looks 'good'. I hope it makes it.--SeizureDog 07:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay:
  1. As you have stated before, reviews are hard to come by so I made do with what I could find. As you said, having the title be a very simple English word doesn't make things any easier.
We should should ask people on the Japanese Wiki if they know of any place to go.--SeizureDog 09:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Good idea...though I believe you'd have to take care of that for I have almost no knowledge of the language...yet.---- (十八) 09:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  1. Source the quote? Eh, easy enough to do, and I would rather not take it out since it's a definative quote for the series and warrents inclusion.
  2. That was the best picture I could find. I slaved over those search engines for hours and hours trying to find not only the Air girls all in a single picture, but also a screenshot from the game featuring some dialogue, of which I came up with zero on both counts. That pic is actually one I already had and when push came to shove, I ended up using it for the time being until a suitable picture can be found. It serves its purpose, and while it's not the best picture possible, there really is not much else I could find to replace it.
  3. The "Best" version is actually the re-release of the PS2 version. I'm not sure why some places has it labeled as "Best", though there's no real difference between the two PS2 releases save price. :/
Which is why I think it's one of those things where if a game sells X number of copies they release it in a different format.--SeizureDog 09:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
While that may be true, do you have anything to back this claim up?---- (十八) 09:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If you think trying to search for Air is hard, try making a search for "Best" in relation to PlayStation 2 games. I just can't word my search to turn up what I want. It's really freaking annoying. In short, no. I can't haven't figured out what the "Best" edition of games is supposed to mean.--SeizureDog 10:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've found this page where it appears you were correct on your assumption.---- (十八) 10:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, well yeah I knew it was used for other games too, I could have told you that. Sony's been using that system since the PS1 in Japan, but I still don't know how many copies it has to sell to get it. If that's the standard at all.--SeizureDog 10:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to work things out.---- (十八) 08:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of reviews, I recently emailed visual-novels.net about a possible future review of Air, and they say they have a copy, though there's several other titles in line before they get to Air, if they ever do, so it'll be a while on their review.---- (十八) 10:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have passed this article as a Good Article on 13/1/07. Congratulations to the lead editors, and Happy Editing! Kind regards, Anthonycfc [T • C] 14:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Peer review

Now that this article has become a Good Article, I am going to initiate the process for the article to be peer reviewed so that perhaps it might gain Featured Article status. Please place any comments on the peer review page, linked at the top of this page.---- (十八) 02:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Minagi's surname

Due to official artwork such as this and this, taken from the OP of the original game, I am changing Minagi's surname to Tohno.---- (十八) 10:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Note on Criticism

"The first versions of the visual novel are criticized for its inclusion of these scenes, which are thought to be out of place and detract from the actual plot of the visual novel. For this reason, Key released subsequent editions of Air without the erotic content."

I believe there is a lack of foundation in this statement, and would require citation. If one considers the primary audience of visual novels, it is hard to believe that the inclusion of H-scenes called for significant criticism. In fact, I believe one of the greater criticisms of Clannad, was the lack of H-scenes.

I believe the correct explanation of why subsequent releases of Air removed the scenes was because they were released on consoles, which are much more restricted as far as pornographic content goes. In fact, the DVD re-release of Air included the H-scenes. I understand that such scenes do draw some criticism, but as it is stated now, i believe that it is a misrepresentation of the true state of affairs. I believe this may have been brought up before, so I am merely asking for a citation or better proof. Pifactor 10:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"Series"

While I understand I might have waited too long to bring this up, but why is the title Air (series) when Air is not a series? (ie. there is no succession, no prequels and sequels, etc). At best, it is a franchise. I propose to move this page to Air (visual novel) or similar, since the TV anime and the movie have their own articles, and all adaptations originated from the game anyways. Please discuss. _dk 16:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

While I do agree on the point that the article should have been renamed a long time, I disagree on what should be the designation. At WikiProject Anime and manga, it is listed here which states that for a game related article, the designation should be as follows: Game related - title (game). I do realize why you chose to use the visual novel designation for One (visual novel) though I believe due to this convention, it should go back to simply (game). As such, I also would like to see this article renamed to Air (game) like it was so many months before.--(十八) 21:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
That's fine with me. _dk 06:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't really see anyone finding a reason to disagree with this, so I've tagged Air (game) for speedy delete so we can move this article to that title. -- Ned Scott 07:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
All done. -- Ned Scott 08:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There is one thing left, Category:Air (series), but I'm not even sure we need a cat for the handful of articles we have. -- Ned Scott 09:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I still believe that the category, though renamed to Category: Air (game), should be kept; if nothing else, there's a multitude of images still there. Also, thanks of the page move.--(十八) 10:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Whether we choose to rename it or delete it, we'd still have to put it on WP:CFD. Let the community decide what to do with it there. _dk 11:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I could see this easily being speedied for the same reason the page move was. Doesn't matter to me, though. -- Ned Scott 08:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Article name

I moved the article from Air (game) to Air (visual novel) since that Air (computer game) article really kinda screwed with the old name(s) and the use of "(game)" has been/is being phased out for video game articles. Anyways, there are a number of other possible namespaces we could move it to if where I moved it to troubles anyone: Air (2000 video game) or Air (Key) to name two. However, considering how visual novels are only barely even considered "games" in the first place, I rather prefer to use (visual novel).--SeizureDog 07:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

But just going off WP:Anime#Article name, shouldn't it be (game) like it says there?--十八 07:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
New suggestion: All right, we can start using (visual novel) to denote visual novel related articles that conflict with common names, like Air. To do this then, shouldn't the convention at WP:Anime#Article name be renamed, or at the very least have a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels where we can write in the convention ourselves?--十八 07:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Being phased out? Eh? Wikipedia:Disambiguation says to only disambiguate when necessary.. Naming conventions generally should be discussed on Wikipedia-wide talk pages, too. I can't help but think that (visual novel) is being pushed simply because there is now a visual novel WikiProject. -- Ned Scott 08:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved it back to Air (game) for now, since it was less work to do that than moving talk archives, updating their double redirects, and fixing the left-over double redirects from the main move itself. Something about this just seems needless to me, so I think we should take this to WP:RM. -- Ned Scott 08:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, (game) is being phased out, usually to (video game) or (computer game) (e.g. Black (video game), Black & White (computer game)) but that doesn't work here anymore since it conflicts with the other computer game named Air. I don't really care if it's (visual novel) or something else, but (game) is just horribly unspecific for any video game article, I think it's especially bad here since visual novels are only "games" in the loosest sense. The standard for multiple games of the same title is a little less consistant, so we don't really have anything to follow there. Ghostbusters (video game) goes by company, but the other Air game wasn't even made by a company, so that might not be the best choice. So basically, it's either (visual novel) or (2000 video game), but not (2000 computer game) since it got ports and also not Air (video game) because a computer game is still a video game (and would thus conflict with the other article. The year format goes along with how films are handled, but I simply prefer the (visual novel) since that is how the lead identifies it. Also sorry that I missed the discussion directly above this one.--SeizureDog 08:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Err, the conversation seemed to die down without any sort of conclusion, but by the way it seems now I guess we're sticking with Air (game)? _dk 05:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm now pushing for Air (2000 video game). Film articles handle themselves by year, so I guess video game articles should be as well. The '(game)' most certainly should be switched to '(video game)' in some way though, as the Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games has stopped using that for quite a while now. In any case, I hate moving a page more than once, but I'll probably do so until discussion pops up here again.--SeizureDog 06:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Eh, after thinking about it.. visual novel or any of the others suggested seem fine. Whatever works. I don't think the year is required, though, if there is only one video game / novel/ whatever by that name. -- Ned Scott 05:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I think Air (visual novel) is best, though. _dk 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
lol, damnit, only after I convince myself that an alternative should be used you guys support my original idea? Such a tease. Moving back to (visual novel) since Ned Scott was the one that objected in the first place.--SeizureDog 04:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
All right, glad a consensus was reached. Now all we need to do is move Category:Air (series) to Category:Air (visual novel). Additionally, I added to the article naming conventions at WP:Anime#Article name to include visual novels.--十八 06:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Why would Category:Air (series) need to be moved? The category is used for all mediums. --SeizureDog 06:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I guess you're right.--十八 08:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Still, Air is no series. _dk 11:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess you have a point there. "Category:Air (media franchise)" has a odd ring to it, but I guess that's what it technically is.--SeizureDog 11:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Theme vs. Motif

The theme section seems to be discussing motifs rather than the themes of the game itself. Keep in mind that a motif is a recurring symbol, and that a theme is what the symbols represent. The discussion of "air, skies, and wings" for example merely gives examples of how those particular symbols appear throughout the game/anime; therefore, they should be called "motifs," not themes. If one was to say, for example, the air represents the characters' desires for freedom, then "desire for freedom" would be a theme. Keep in mind that wikipedia is not for original research, so making any such conclusions would require a citation. Also, I haven't seen this anime/played this game so I have no idea what themes it could really be trying to get accross; I just used the "freedom" thing as an example. Anyway, someone who knows what they're doing should fix this. Maybe rename the section to Motifs and/or find citations for possible themes. 75.60.182.129 06:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a theme and a motif are near syntonyms. It's rather stupid and confusing, and I wish that the articles had some actual sources to back themselves up. Both words have multiple meanings depending on the context. My dictionary says that a 'theme' is "subject or topic on which one speaks or writes", while a 'motif' is "a usu. recurring salient thematic element or feature (as in a work of art; esp: a dominant idea or theme". Basically, I've always thought of a motif as the most important or reoccuring theme in a work. But I dunno, is there something official we can look at to clarify the difference?--SeizureDog 22:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe he's talking about theme (literature) rather than the general sense of the word. _dk 00:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The question is, which use of 'theme' applies to Air? I mean, the visual novel is very literature-ish obviously, but the adaptations certainly aren't.--SeizureDog 03:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
To delve into the literary themes would be OR unless we could get some staff interviews, so I don't think we can write about that. _dk 03:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I am actually talking about "the general sense of the word." Note the third paragraph in this article : "Themes differ from motifs in that themes are ideas conveyed by the visual experience as a whole, while motifs are repeated symbols found inside an over-arching theme..." It is true that they are nearly synonyms and that many people are unclear about the correct usage of them; I guess I'm just being a little picky about word choice. Note that since motifs are just recurring symbols, it is alright to include them in wikipedia, since the visual novel itself is a reference; by viewing the anime/reading (playing?) the visual novel, repeated occurrences of the motif is very evident. Stating that a motif is important (w/out citation), however, is probably pushing it. Also, as I said earlier, stating an actual theme is original research, unless a citation is included.75.60.182.129 03:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Air (anime) merger

Images

I find it slightly amusing that, apart from the infobox image, the only image in the article is that of cameo characters from another series. Shiroi Hane 09:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well. Article is at its premature stages. Every character and episode has their own individual artcles and related images, or at least they will have once I am done. --Cat out 18:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dream Arc

The Dream arc is up to episode 7, not 6. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.231.13.169 (talk) 11:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Requested move

Air (TV series) → Air (anime) — In accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga#Article name I propose to move this page to Air (anime).---- (十八) 23:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Survey - Support votes
  • This seems non-controversial enough to qualify for a speedy. I've tagged Air (anime) with a speedy delete tag for a page move, WP:CSD#G6. -- Ned Scott 00:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes
  • Oppose - see WP:TV-NC--Sig0 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
    Comment - WikiProject Anime and manga has discussed this at length. We have agreed to use a naming system that allows for (anime) to be further disambiguated as necessary into (TV series), (OVA) or (film). Generally WP:ANIME follows WP:TV-NC but this is an exception. It is consistent across all WP:ANIME articles. --Squilibob 07:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Wait a second, isn't it conflicting to have both Air (anime) and Air (film) articles? The film is still an anime after all.--SeizureDog 22:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The blu-ray

Jesus Christ, $250 for one season? There's no way that's going to fly in America. Japan sure gets screwed in the electronics department. Anyways, can we get some information as to if the blu-ray version sold well? --SeizureDog 03:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen any information about the blu-ray, but I'll try to find something.--(十八) 04:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, the average income is higher in Japan. However, anime/video game companies tend to charge more over there because of the crazy otaku fanbase that will buy absolutely anything, no matter how expensive. Anyway, the Blu-ray discs of Air seem like a waste of money to me; other than the new OP, none of it is actually HD. It's just upscaled, which is quite lame. Moogy (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)