Talk:AIDS

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[edit] More statistics on oral intercourse?

Can we get more than just 1 reference on HIV transmission rates with respect to oral intercourse? And a dedicated section for each method of transmission? 1x[infection]/10000x[oral exposures] on the chart seems deceptively low even for a low-risk activity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.243.2.30 (talk) 10:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abstinence only programs a failure?

There happens to be a quote in this article saying that abstinence only programs have failed. Even though this tidbit includes proper citation, I think that it is A. out of place, and B. untrue. I happen to have personal contact with a woman who teaches AIDS prevention in Africa. Their abstinence program has been highly successful, more so than passing out condoms. Why is this? Most people, especially teens or decultured people in Nigeria, do not know how to properly store and use a condom. I can elaborate, but I believe it is unnecessary, as this information is out of context anyways. I am going to remove this, please add this in a separate article where it applies. Thank you. --Wick3dd 19:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

But you do see the difference between promoting abstinence, and abstinence-only programs? I'm sure in Nigeria the programs, while promoting abstinence, also acknowledge the existence of condoms and the fact that they effectively lower the risk of HIV transmission. Abstinence-only programs, on the other hand, don't cover barrier methods or anything beyond abstinence. Unless I'm missing something, these don't seem comparable. MastCell Talk 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In Africa they teach abstinence outside of marriage. They leave out condoms. It is such an epidemic over there, it requires a harsher program than it would here. Most Africans wouldn't be properly storing condoms, and condoms are not guaranteed to block HIV everytime. The safest option if for them to stay loyal to one person. Thanks for the reply. --Wick3dd 02:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really comfortable with your generalization about what "most Africans" would do. Of course condoms are not 100% effective, and abstinence (if practiced) is. Of course, simply telling people to be abstinent is not really an effective way to control an epidemic. That said, I think your clarification (adding "in the United States" to the studies of abstinence-only education) is a reasonable one. MastCell Talk 03:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem we need to address concerning Africa is practice of using anal sex as a form of birth control when condoms are not available. Education that anal sex is many times more likley to transmit HIV might promote abstinence when no condom is available. Information is power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Abstinence outside of marriage hasn't been strictly adhered to by most human community in most of recorded time. There have been bastard children through all societies and all cultures. So what exactly makes you think it'll work in this day and age? Being faithful to 1 person does nto garentee they will be faithful to you. 206.75.33.118 09:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


Whatever we can't believe anything you say you can't even spell. Abstinence is the best way that we have right now, face it.

~This is not the right place to be debating whether teaching abstinence is the best idea. 99.233.20.151 (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transmission and Prevention

This may have come up in past discussions, but can someone tell me why the main section on the transmission of HIV is in the AIDS article instead of in the HIV article? You cannot transmit AIDS. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


I noticed the following sentence under the Transmission and Prevention section, Sexual Contact subsection: The risk of HIV transmission from exposure to saliva is considerably smaller than the risk from exposure to semen; contrary to popular belief, one would have to swallow liters of saliva from a carrier to run a significant risk of becoming infected.[78]

I looked up the article in citation #78, and it doesn't support this claim at all. In fact, to my reading, it doesn't even mention the word "saliva" once. I think that whoever wrote this sentence should either find the correct citation, or the Wiki editors should remove it, because I've never found any source that does support this claim. The CDC states that there are very low levels of HIV present in saliva, but does not list contact with saliva or kissing as possible methods of transmitting HIV.

146.203.126.65 (talk) 22:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] beginning of AIDS

The first documented AIDS case was where a male African flight attendant acquired AIDS from intercourse with a monkey and then further transmitted it to humans via active sexual activity aloing his long flying routes. So this patriarch of AIDS, who was an African, began the AIDS epidemic that has not only devastated Africa but the rest of the earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.6.132 (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source indicating that the transmission to humans occurred through bestiality? Seriously. Is it not as likely to occur through consumption of the infected meat? If you have no reliable sources, I'll assume that you went of on a racist rant.Gkmx (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/conditions/06/13/monkeys.aid/ Also see http://www.avert.org/origins.htm Take a wild guess as to how it got transferred to humans; it wasn't from eating the monkeys, it was transferred the same way it is today- through sexual intercourse, or bestiality. The only reason it's not mentioned in the article is because gays don't want the rest of the world to know that they're the ones who started the epidemic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.71.245.166 (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You may want to reread the sources you provided:
"The virus was passed onto chimpanzees when they ate infected monkey meat, believe the scientists from universities in France, America and the UK." (CNN, 2003) Fifth paragraph down.
"The most commonly accepted theory is that of the 'hunter'. In this scenario, SIVcpz was transferred to humans as a result of chimps being killed and eaten or their blood getting into cuts or wounds on the hunter." (Avert.org, 2008) from "The hunter theory" section.-Optigan13 (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nominee

 This article is a current selected article candidate on Medicine portal. A selected article should exemplify Wikipedia's very best work related to Medicine. Please feel free to leave comments.

[edit] Aids POV

You are incorrect in your decision to remove the aids POV tag. You neglected to verify the validity of the citations, and upon my brother's examination, the citations actually contradict the statement saying that conservatives are uneducated about aids. Per his request, I will be removing the text in error. It is incorrect, misleading, and contradicts citations. If you contest that edit, I will appeal it to your superiors.Merechriolus (talk) 06:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no such thing as "superiors" here; if you feel the tag merits inclusion, argue your case on the talk page, citing & observing policy. El_C 05:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I know my way around here, don't worry about me.Merechriolus (talk) 06:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not worried. El_C 06:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I know, I just hate it when these people log off as soon as they make their edits.Merechriolus (talk) 06:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd address those sock accusations before I start running around yelling to the "superiors". Baegis (talk) 06:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi baegis, I'd like you to PROVIDE RATIONALE for reverting my edit.Merechriolus (talk) 06:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what that means. Please sign your edits using four tildes. Thanks. El_C 06:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I meant that when Marlin made this edit, he later became inactive and now cannot provide relevant input.Merechriolus (talk) 07:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Well, maybe his cat was on the phone, or something. El_C 07:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
That cat is always tying up my phone line. And it keeps editing Wikipedia too. I personally think AIDS is caused by an experiment gone awry by the Military Industrial complex of the US, but the cat insists on verified and reliable sources. I can't stand that cat.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 07:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
God, I know. My iguana keeps reminding users to use those same sources and he keeps overruling what I really want to include. Why can't this place be more like conservapedia so we can just put any random, half-formed thought we have into the article? Baegis (talk) 07:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Blame it all on the Rouge admins. They don't want "The Truth" here at Wikipedia. It's all a conspiracy. -- Fyslee / talk 18:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it's time an admin gives Merechriolus a time out. He's now attacking other editors, since his POV is just not accepted by the wealth of science that counters his right-wing agenda.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 08:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it's time one of you people directly addressed what I'm going at. One more time? Yes! IM BEGGING one of you to give a valid quantitative example of how what you people are defending is not POV itself.Merechriolus (talk) 08:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"The fact that self-described liberalism-conservatism was not a significant predictor suggests that these systems are mainly based on moral judgements rather than political beliefs". Therefore, there is no evidence to support this claim, because it actually contradicts the citations. It is, therefore, POV unless further citations are provided. To that end, I am going to remove the biased section until REAL citations that support the assumption are provided."Merechriolus (talk) 08:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

<RI> Sounds like a threat to violate WP:3RR OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 08:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I;m trying to control myself, please forgive me If I use all caps, but, THAT'S A QUOTE. A quote is not something that I am about to do, it's something that has already been said and does not state my current intentions.Merechriolus (talk) 08:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"I think it's time an admin gives Merechriolus a time out. He's now attacking other editors, since his POV is just not accepted by the wealth of science that counters his right-wing agenda." Alright, marley, look. I have presented evidence for making a deletion of a handful of words. I have refuted every argument made up to deny it, and yet you still want to cling on to the conservatives being poorly informed about homosexuals. Please, for once, ignore everything before now: The facts are there. There is no data supporting the statement about conservatives. It does not, therefore, deserve to be there. Just that one statement! Your responsibility is to make the wiki NPOV, so why won't you?Merechriolus (talk) 08:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, the citations actually contradict the statement by saying that political parties were a non-factor, although I have said that about 40 times now.Merechriolus (talk) 08:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
You've now reached a level of tendentious. Please stay off my talk page, and take your POV to the articles talk page. And it starts now. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 08:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
You know what? If people will be like this and totally blow me off, then maybe I will email this discussion to an admin. I made an argument for deleting something which you people fought against with ridiculous vigor. I just wanted to remove one phrase, but obviously, you can't do that on wikipedia, because it automatically conflicts with a rather apparent, at this point, agenda.Merechriolus (talk) 08:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, there it is. The reference to the great big cabal that runs Wikipedia as the reason why someone's edits were not accepted unquestioned. Much like Godwin's Law, it will always rear its ugly head when these conversations continue unchecked. But you are onto something with the agenda part. We do have an ulterior motive; building an encyclopedia is our goal. You have had two editors tell you that your edit was incorrect. I don't know what else you need. Baegis (talk) 09:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever considered that two people can both be wrong? Neither of you has refuted the evidence I provided. This is incorrect, and therefore POV, by wikipedia rules, so the fact that you two are so fixed on keeping it there is erroneous and actually obstructs the building of the encycloepdia. Please reply to this with a counterargument to my evidence, or I will ignore posts that are not on the subject of the aids argument at hand.Merechriolus (talk) 15:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
At one time, there was a reference listed that backed up the statement that right-wing nutbars (aka conservative political ideologists) were more likely to harbor AIDS-prejudice. Unfortunately, over time, many references have been removed... However, Orangemarlin has rewritten that section to a higher standard since. --Bob (talk) 15:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Bob, please refrain from calling others names. Calling conservatives "right wing nutbars" is a personal attack and in violation of wikipedia policy.Just-unsigned (talk) 19:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


This is not about holding prejudice, but about being uninformed about the transmission of the disease. Thank you all for your help, though.Merechriolus (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fresh restart on aids POV

Requesting comment as of 3/10/08 because, as I have stated [here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Aids_POV], my edits have been reverted again, without any rationale provided to refute my argument that it is POV, and not even any comment at all. My rationale for removing the phrase in question is below; the link provided above to the administrator's noticeboard is for reference.Merechriolus (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Allright, nevermind. If it takes this long, then by the time anyone gets around to commenting it's too late.Merechriolus (talk) 19:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Quoting the wikipedia policy for Tendentious Editing: "the responsibility for justifying inclusion of any content rests firmly with the editor seeking to include it". No rationale has, of yet, been provided that is valid rationale. Furthermore, Wikipedia:verifiability says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.[1] The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question." The only evidence given in the citations says that Conservatism/Liberalism is not a factor, therefore, this statement is not correct. It therefore should not be on the wiki unless an editor gives good rationale for keeping it. Because of the 3 revisions rule, I am unable to revert this edit without being nincriminated, and therefore I will not. However, I would like to have an outside source come and review the facts:The "stigma" section says that conservatives are more likely to be uneducated about aids, whereas the very citations it uses say that political affiliation is not a factor. (Page 16 of citastion 135, final paragraph on the page) The actual quote is "the fact that self-described liberalism-conservatism was not a significant predictor suggests that these systems are based on moral judgments rather than political beliefs". Therefore, the phrase in the article saying "Those most likely to hold misconceptions about HIV transmission and to harbor HIV/AIDS stigma are less educated people and people with high levels of religiosity or conservative political ideology." Is INCORRECT when it includes conservatives. This is my rationale for deleting the four words "or conservative political ideology". Please provide yours before reverting edits, because, as I said, the responsibility to include information is with the includer, not the denier.(Merechriolus (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Orangemarlin has removed the entire paragraph in which the statement is question was contained. I will wait 24 hours to see if he reinstates the statement in any form; if he does not, I will declare this thread moot. If he reinstates said statements, I will continue to pursue the removal of the POV. If he later restores the phrase in question after 24 hours, I will contact an admin directly. If, by 10:00 PM of Tuesday, March 11th, the phrase is still not restored, I will withdraw current pursuits and requests relating to the phrase in question. I'd just like to thank Orangemarlin for coming around and making this easier for all of us here at wikipedia.Merechriolus (talk) 02:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Stop the wikilawyering. Any further uncivil commentary and lacking good faith is not doing anything good for you. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Merechriolus. I discussed this in a new section below (see Stigma). I didn't see your section at first. Orangemarlin has indicated why he removed the paragraph below. He doesn't intend to restore it. Thanks. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 02:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

No one owns this article. Myself included!!!  :) OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Merechriolus and I agree with you. If we didn't, we would have brought it up. There is consensus. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am glad that we have finally reached agreement on this, but I'm just disappointed in both the amount of time it took, the number of times my edits were reverted (5 total and 2 without anyone even providing reason in the talk page), and the fact that an administrator never directly commented on the talk page after all that time. Anyway, it's been a day, so I'm removing the RfC tag and closing my inquiry on the Admin Noticeboard.Merechriolus (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stigma

The stigma section contains this statement:

Those most likely to hold misconceptions about HIV transmission and to harbor HIV/AIDS stigma are less educated people and people with high levels of religiosity or conservative political ideology.

Perhaps this should re-worded. The current wording suggests that less educated people are much more likely than more educated people to hold misconceptions. One of the articles cited also says that being female or black also puts you in this category. (It actually says that.) Obviously we wouldn't add those terms into this sentence, though. Let's change this sentence so it has the type of neutrality that would be requisite for adding those other characteristics. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 06:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The current wording suggests that less educated people are much more likely than more educated people to hold misconceptions - yes, I believe that was the intent. What's your point?
One of the articles cited also says that being female or black also puts you in this category. - Which article says this? Please quote it exactly. Raul654 (talk) 07:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe his point is that all people, including those that are highly educated, can have misconceptions. His point is true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 14:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was rather vague in my first post. The article is the one currently cited as citation 135, found here [1]. See the bottom of the first column on the first page. It appears that majority of the information I quoted above is from this statement:
Inaccurate beliefs about HIV transmission through unprotected sex were predicted by socioeconomic status (lower educational level and income), gender (being female), race (being black), religiosity, personal concern about contracting AIDS, and lack of knowledge about HIV transmission through casual contact.
JBFrenchhorn (talk) 07:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
You said: "One of the articles cited also says that being female or black also puts you in this category." - if by "this category" you mean uneducated people, then you have totally misunderstood the above passage and you need to go learn what a predictor is. If by "this category" you meant people who are statistically more-likely-than-others to have misconceptions about HIV, then you have correctly understood the above passage. Either way, what is currently written in this article correctly represents what that source says. Raul654 (talk) 08:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is the external jump (that I removed yesterday) back at the bottom of this section? See also and further templates belong at the top of sections (see WP:GTL) and links to external sites belong either in External links (WP:EL) or in citations or further reading. The text currently consisting of an external jump could be converted to a referenced statement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I underrstood the statement correctly. Shall we add those additional characteristics into the article? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 00:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Orangemarlin just removed that sentence from the text. In the edit summary, he stated a good reason for doing so. Issue resolved. Thanks. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 01:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

From what I could see of the literature, you could pull articles to support any POV on this topic. At that point, you either mention all POV's, or delete it. It is clear that there are trends that less educated and more "conservative" or religious individuals believe that AIDS is exclusively a gay disease or some other unsupported belief. However, I couldn't find a "conclusive" article. For a medical article, it is clear that this is not worth the editing energy, and we should stick with science and medicine. Thanks for your support of my removing the sentence. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 01:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Africa spread of AIDS

With the immense amount of evidence supporting the conclusion that Aids has spread faster in Africa than anywhere else in the world due to (1)re-using needles to treat disease and (2)cultural acceptence of anal intercourse as birth control in a society where women are subordinate, the only conclusion one can draw from an article that clings to emphasizing heterosexual intercourse as the main cause of transmission is that homosexual bias continues to drive this article.

http://www. associatedcontent .com/article/511395/some_myths_about_aids.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 14:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={334486FC-248B-47E9-A359-A8371E7CC3BD} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 18:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Neither are reliable sources. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The credientials of the researchers quoted are excellent. Your comment is a perfect example of the bias I describe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 18:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The author of the first article you linked is "junior in college majoring in child/abnormal clinical psychology," according to her bio on Associated Content. The author of the second article has a Ph.D. in History and specializes in U.S. and Canadian foreign policy. Neither author is qualified to speak about HIV/AIDS. Both articles are blogs, and by definition blogs cannot be considered as reliable sources. If you can provide documentation from a reliable source, written by people recognized as specialists in HIV/AIDS and/or its social impact, then your points will be considered. TechBear (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I clearly said that the credentials of the researchers/ doctors quoted were excellant- not the writers of the articles themselves. It is those doctors opinion that healthy vaginal tissue has been found to be impermiable to the virus- as opposed to intestinal tissue which has been found to readily absorb material down to a small molecular size. Needle re-use in Africa has been an agreed upon problem for years.
Please indent and sign your posts. You admit that the articles you reference are unsuitable. Please find articles that are. TechBear (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The two sources from our anonymous friend are examples of poorly written and referenced secondary or even tertiary sources. If there is published research from these physicians, it should be easy to find on PubMed. I'm not looking, since it's pretty clear it's POV and we're not giving undue weight to fringe theories. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

PubMed?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10743535 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Ever heard of NIH?

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102239436.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You've reached my limit of tolerance. Read WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

CDC anyone?

http://www.thebody.com/content/news/art40941.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're not impressed by PubMed, The NIH or the CDC? The bottom line is, you don't want facts. Seems like the only case I CAN prove is my claim of your Bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You might find your comments better received if you expressed them civilly and without personal attacks. Continuing in this vein is not going to be productive. MastCell Talk 21:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I've taken my share of rudeness here from the first day when I was just trying to help. None of you "editors" have been civil. And the article never gets updated no matter how many excellant sources I heve posted. Did you read my links or not? Are the opinions by the CDC, NIH, and PubMed valid or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 21:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the Agence France Presse is not the CDC and the University of California San Francisco is not the NIH, and PubMed doesn't have an opinion, it is a database. Now, the anal sex fetish has been brought back to the fore. For the uninitiated, there is an entire discussion on the topic here. --Bob (talk) 04:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The sites listed are CDC, PubMed and NIH sites even if the research came from institutions like The University of California San Fransisco. These sites would not allow information to be placed on them that are without merit. I would appreciate it if you not refer to me as "The Anal Fetish".

The problem is that you (the IP) are attacking a strawman. The article doesn't downplay the risks of receptive anal intercourse so far as I can see - they're spelled out with numbers in the infobox, which is about as prominent as you can get. What you're producing is not the opinion of the "CDC, NIH, and PubMed" - it's a handful of articles, many by the same author. This view may be worth mentioning, and we can certainly discuss it, but things will never get anywhere without a more civil approach, a willingness to discuss rather than attack strawmen, and a bit more attention to detail. MastCell Talk 05:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

"Mastcell" has made some valid points and I concede that some of them are true. However, as you can see, "Bob" just refered to me as having an "anal fetish" which is the just the type of personal attack I have recieved from this person "Bob" (and others) in the past. I would be happy to enter into a more civil discussion- I will not attack anyone that treats my viewpoint with respect instead of (1) dismissing it out of hand and (2) making personal attacks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 14:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Bob didn't attack you. Grow up. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 16:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Who are you to say when a slander like that is not an attack? Keep your comments to yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 17:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Very important subjects not covered

The text of the article has a single sentence regarding anal intercourse under the topic of "sexual contact". ONE sentence. It simply says that it is the most risky. Absolutely no explaination as to WHY it is more risky. This article contains literally hundreds of words describing the science of Aids in minute detail. There is a very large section devoted to "economic impact" of Aids, but a single sentence concerning the most dangerous sex act one can do with regard to transmission. And a number appears in an info box. Questions that should be addressed: Why is it more risky than vaginal intercourse? How prevailant is it? In which cultures? What impact has it had? Can it be a factor in places like Africa that coincide with the highest rates of infection in the world? Has stigma had an effect on collecting data? What percentage of heterosexuals perform this act regularly? Are condoms used as often during this act or is it performed as birth control when no condom is available? I would suggest that answers to questions concerning the most dangerous form of sexual contact would do a lot more to inform people trying to avoid getting Aids than a thousand words about the economic impact of Aids. Needle re-use should also be covered in depth as well. Elaboration on one of the types of transmission that appears in the info box is already a large part of this article- "mother to child transmission" is one of the factors listed in the info box (as childbirth) and also has a lengthy description under it's own heading in the text. Why not the others? Are they less important? Or just more controversial? In short, I think that the most important information about Aids is exactly how it spreads so people can protect themselves and others—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 14:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I just dropped in here, but I agree with the points made above. Transmission routes should be covered.CynRNCynRN (talk) 16:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)After a more thorough read through, it seems to be a very well written and complete article. Still, some of the suggestions above could be included.CynRNCynRN (talk) 17:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone like to write a section with information about the different forms of transmission?Just-unsigned (talk) 12:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-December-2007 forecasts were inaccurate

This change to the lead added the text "AIDS death toll in Africa may reach 90-100 million by 2025." and cited 2005 and 2006 estimates to that effect. However, these estimates were based on old data that has since been substantially revised downward (see: McNeil DG Jr. "U.N. agency to say it overstated extent of H.I.V. cases by millions", New York Times, 2007-11-20. Retrieved on 2008-03-18. ), and those old forecasts are now questionable. I removed the questionable claim. If/when newer forecasts become available we should use them instead. Eubulides (talk) 22:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking for a volunteer to elaborate on the types of transmission listed briefly in the infobox. Does anyone else want to see this information made available? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you asking? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see my above suggestion titled "Very important subjects not covered". Basically, I'd like to see the same attention to detail that has been given to describing "mother to child transmission" in the text of the article applied to the other forms of transmission listed in the infobox.I would suggest that Bob would be a good person to write the new sections.Just-unsigned (talk) 13:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the templates boxes appear funny on my firefox

all of the templates boxes are really messed up on my firefox. Anyone else having overlapping problems? For example, the spoken box is right on top of the AIDs template. Tkjazzer (talk) 21:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

  • There often are problems with FireFox, (see my user page!), but I can't see one here; the templates look fine with both Explorer and FireFox on my screen. Graham. --GrahamColmTalk 22:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The problem should be fixed now. --Bob (talk) 05:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spread of AIDS to US/Haiti

The very end of the article states that AIDS was spread to the US via Haiti, when there is actually some suggesting the opposite. If you follow the link to the article cited, the page it's at includes links to another scholarly article that disagrees. One of the authors, Paul Farmer, has studied the US-Haiti AIDS connection in some detail and argues that AIDS spread to Haiti via the US (He wrote a book about it, AIDS in Haiti). To make the article more objective, I think that information about the controversy/his perspective should be included. I also think it might be helpful to include some analysis or explanation of the two positions. 67.183.122.113 (talk) 05:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So far no response as to why we don't want to discuss transmission in detail.Just-unsigned (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

New data indicates 62% of HIV transmission has been the result of anal sex and as much as 60% of the population in countries such as brazil perform this act- most of the time without protection. http://www.natap.org/2002/barcelona/day22.htm 67.62.23.202 (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Impact of needle sharing and anal sex in Africa: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.fumento.com/disease/aids2005.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 19:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Reprinted article from the Wall Street Journal:http://www.aliveandwell.org/html/risk_realities/dangers_real_imagined.html

OK. Can we think about using reliable sources from here on? When it comes to HIV/AIDS, Michael Fumento and Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives are quite clearly not in this category. MastCell Talk 19:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Unpopular but not unreliable. The CDC has increased it's definition on what constitutes AIDS over a dozen times. That's fact. The only subject open to conjecture is "why?". The problem for them now is that they're running out of ways to expand the definition. In addition, the ONLY evidence so far for the vaginal transmission of HIV has been surveys where the people are asked "Do you think you got this from vaginal sex or were you injecting drugs or doing receptive anal?" Talk about a survey with a pre-determined outcome!!Laboratory attempts to show transmission through the (healthy) vaginal wall have not been succesful. The best estimates are that receptive vaginal HIV transmission in Africa is about 20%.It usually coincides with wounds from violence, STDs and the practice of "Dry sex" in that culture. Estimates on receptive anal transmission are about 60%. Is there another scientific reason that HIV spreads fastest in cultures that practice anal sex and re-use needles? If so, what is it? The fact that this huge article on Aids only has one sentence on anal sex speaks volumes.

You are perilously close to beating this strawman to death. Your comments consistently imply that there is a conspiracy to understate the risks of anal sex. That is not the case. They are spelled out in the article and highlighted in an infobox. It is riskier than vaginal intercourse. The article says so, prominently. What is this about? MastCell Talk 17:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] origins/history section

Shouldn't the Origins/History section be at the top of the article? JayKeaton (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:MEDMOS. The History sections always comes last, because, this being a medical article, it's really more of information rather than about the medicine. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
oic JayKeaton (talk) 19:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tuskeegee Experiment

Not wanting to start a whole new article, I was going to put a blurb on the relevant AIDS article about the Tuseeagee experiment, and it's role in fostering the idea that "The Government purposefully spread AIDS", especially among the black community.

One such link is here:

http colon slash slash www dot whale dot to slash p slash tuskagee dot htm

(How odd that Wikipedia has an article about this experiment blacklisted!)

As of now, Wikipedia completely ignores a real event that has relation to this topic, and was notable enough to be subject to "intense political pressure".

I can't find the "AIDS theories" article, or whatever it would be called, but what I was hoping to add was something like


"The Tuskeegee Experiment, performed from 1932-1972, was performed by the US Public Health Service on 400 black sharecroppers who suffered from Syphilis and lived in Tuskeegee, Alabama, with the intent to record what would happen to them if deprived of treatment. That the atrocity was supervised by the CDC, the same group which now oversees the American AIDS epidemic, has been emphasized by researchers such as Martin P. Levine in his book Bad Blood."

I guess it should probably still get its own article, but I wouldn't be able to do it - I have almost no access to relevant documentation, and no skill with writing real-world articles.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Whale dot to is a patently unreliable source, not to mention it was the subject of a concerted spamming campaign on Wikipedia, which is why it was blacklisted. This may be more appropriate for AIDS conspiracy theories. MastCell Talk 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archive indexing, reordering of existing archives, possible bot archival

I've been a bit bold and set up archive indexing of the talk pages here, since they appear to be a mess. I found AIDS/references in article space, which looks like a copy of Talk:AIDS/references with a few less additions. Once the indexing was done I was hoping to rearrange the talk pages into some kind of updated numerical order based on their creation date, which would probably mean moving more recent archives forward. Most of those subpages appear to be long dead conversations from 2005, and some are tagged as archive anyway. I was planning on doing the following:

  1. Set up automatic indexing of the Talk pages. Done, but remove the configuration up top if anyone objects.
  2. Merge AIDS/references with Talk:AIDS/references. Possibly requiring a history merge.
  3. Move all Talk:AIDS named (references, circumcision, etc.) sub-pages that are in the archive box into numerical order based on create date, and re-ordering the Archive # to match.
  4. Possibly auto-archiving the talk page itself with a bot, but a somewhat large age threshold (90 days?).

Obviously none of these are very important at this stage in the article's development. The only one that really needs to be done is moving AIDS/references out of article space. But while I was at it I might as well re-organize the other pages. On a similar note I've been re-organizing Commons:Category:HIV, and there are some new/updated images there. -Optigan13 (talk) 08:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've had the sub-pages moved into an order, see the requested diff (here). Although I forgot to request the move on the references sub-page. So I'll be correcting that shortly. -Optigan13 (talk) 06:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pathophysiology

Wrote out the pathophysiology section. Provided one reference. Please add further inline references (not much into journals yet).sarindam7 (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing bad grammar

"The primary mode of HIV infection worldwide is through sexual contact between members of the opposite sex." This makes no sense and is confusing; it suggests they are *both* members of the opposite sex to [some unspecified sex]. It should say "opposite-sex partners" or "partners of different sexes". 86.142.150.182 (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] how men get infected of HIV in an intercourse

We are aware when in the course of intercourse, the vagina or the anus has some parts which absors the semen and the person can get infected, but when a person, whose penis is inserted, it does the action of pumping out and not receiving any fluids, but still when a male penetrates into an infected person and has the sexual intercourse, the person gets infected - how?

Not sure who actually made the above comment, but it wasn't WKnight94. He was the deleting admin as part of a confusing history merge. -Optigan13 (talk) 06:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to the actual question of how HIV is transmitted to insertive partners, the penis does actually receive fluids, which can enter through the Urethra or scratches/sores (See this answer at UCSF's website). -Optigan13 (talk) 06:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed category merge

The related Category:Sexually transmitted infections has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

[edit] AIDS is not caused by HIV

Clearly this Wikipedia article is horribly wrong. See: http://www.orgonelab.org/hiv_aids.htm

68.193.77.86 (talk) 01:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. It also gives undue weight to fringe theories that are not accepted by medical science. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

people with aids need to seek medical attention immediatley —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.96.242 (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"The claim that the virus HIV causes AIDS is an hypothesis which is not supported by facts or evidence, and which has demonstrated no usefulness for predicting or explaining the epidemiology of AIDS." That just about sums up the reliability of that source. I might just contact the creator of that article with a very large list of facts and evidence. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk? 17:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, if it's actually a lab working on orgones, as the URL implies, I'm sure they'll be very receptive to scientifically based arguments and evidence... MastCell Talk 18:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Good point. Well, who am I to argue with a 'life force' anyway. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk? 18:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

← If more sources show up, use it. But remember that was published in 1993. We may have found different information since then. Cavenba (talk • contribs) 10:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reorder sentences in intro suggestion

I think this paragraph buries the lead, which is the pandemic. I think this paragraph should start with "AIDS is now a pandemic." with the rest of the paragraph which now precedes that put at the end. A link to the epidemiology section may be appropriate too. This is how it is now: Most researchers believe that HIV originated in sub-Saharan Africa during the twentieth century.[4] The disease was first identified by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1981 and its cause identified by American and French scientists in the late 1980s.[5] AIDS is now a pandemic.[citation needed] In 2007, an estimated 33.2 million people lived with the disease worldwide, and it killed an estimated 2.1 million people, including 330,000 children.[6] Over three-quarters of these deaths occurred in sub-Saharan Africa,[6] retarding economic growth and destroying human capital.[7] Jensiverson (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mbeki

I wonder if the following:

"President Thabo Mbeki's embrace of AIDS denialism"

should be reworded. I looked at the Mbeki article, and though he seems to have some sort of connection with denialists, it seemed vague, and to suggest he "embraces" it is perhaps an overstatement, or at least doesn't give the proper context. 24.68.37.204 (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there another term you would use to describe Mbeki's close association with AIDS Denialists, and appointment of a denialist Health Minister? One thing that jumps out at me looking at the Thabo Mbeki page is the lack of sources to back up assertions about his limited relationship with AIDS denialism, while this page has three to do so. His health minister's page Manto Tshabalala-Msimang addresses her views with more detail and sources. An op-ed piece in the New York Times states it as "The theory, which we call AIDS denialism, has gained such currency with President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa that his administration is reluctant to expand access to antiretroviral drugs."[2] This is also covered in Greg Behrman's book The Invisible People (Ch. 10)[3], which describes Mbeki as embracing denialism, including denialists on health panels, and consulting with two denialists who assert that poverty causes AIDS[4]. Embrace might sound a bit harsh looking at Mbeki's page, but I think that is because it is trying to downplay his connection with denialism. -Optigan13 (talk) 05:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AIDS in the Swimming Pool