Talk:Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- KGV (Talk) 05:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguous

The article is well written, congrats to the author (assuming its his/her own research), just a note of concern however, exactly what does this line in the 5th paragraph mean?

"While the Portuguese expedition were victorious in most of their engagements with Ahmad's forces, da Gama allowed himself to be trapped by Ahmad somewhere north of the Tekezé River, where he was killed along with all but 140 of his troops."

perhaps its just me but the sentence suggests the Portugese general da Gama ALLOWED himself to be captured. Does it assume the Somalis were unable to capture him? or was this some selfless act by an invading European, giving up his life so that his troops may be saved? Both seems doubtful and strage at best, kindly clear it up.

franz fanon

The source I had at the time stated in vague language that da Gama was maneuvered into a poor tactical position by Ahmda Gragn, who was then able to decimate his troops and kill him in the process. Since then, I've gotten my hands on a translation of Castanhoso's account of the Portuguese expedition (which is commonly accepted as the best account of these events), & learned that what actually happened was more complex. My intent in the next few weeks is to contribute this material to Wikipedia under the relevant articles. -- llywrch 19:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somali clan?

The Akisho, Gadabuursi, and Leelkase articles each claim that Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi (Ahmed Gurey) was a member of those respective Somali clans. None of these articles cite a reference, though. Was any sort of clan affiliation ever documented? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. It is presumed these confederated large clans (that is the four major ones) that exist now actually came at that time or later. No one knows his true Soomaali clan. Many different clans claim, with absurd assertions. Soomaali March 13, 2006

I also just notcied that the Ogaden article states he is from that area. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion and Harar both state he is from Harar. Should all these references be removed pending citation? - BanyanTree 21:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
He's mentioned again in Darod, as a member of that clan. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that's false. Though clans probably existed back then, no one knows which clan he was a part of. Futuh al-Habasa doesn't mention his clan, and that's probably the most likely source to mention it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yom (talk • contribs) 04:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

There's evidence that he was actually Afar (but he could be either), and the quotation has little to do with him, being relevant for the article at Adal instead, so I've removed the information, and added relevant info to Adal. Btw, Futuh didn't apparently didn't even mention his ethnicity at all. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Marehan article has made this claim, as well. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahmed Ibrahim Ghazi was from the Dir clan is an agreed fact amoung Somalis. However, the real dispute that remains is was he a Gadabuursi Dir or Madahweyn Dir(Akisho or Gurgure). Their is a plenty evidence that this Somali hero is from the Gadabursi whose present day homeland is called Awdal (Adal) which is the kingdom Gurey ruled. Futhermore, it is in the Gadabuursi Mandaluug Dir region which the Christian Ethiopians always targeted in the attacks against Ahmed Gurey and today in the Amuud region you will find the ruines of buildings where the ancient Samaroon used to live and it was the hometown of the Somali saint and general Imaam Said Samaroon who was the defender of the western flank of the Somali nation from Amhara intrusions.

Imam Ahmed Gureey could not be from the Darood clan since he lived in the 1500's before even the Yemani ancestor of the Darood(Darood Ibu Ismail Jabarti reached the shores of Somali. Therefore, Gurey was from the Dir Mandaluug or Madahweyn clan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.219.199.169 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As has already been noted, multiple articles about Somali clans have each claimed that Ahmed Gurey belonged to one particular clan or another. If you do not cite sources for your assertions, how can we distinguish your own claims from those of others? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ahmed Amin Nur was from Marehan, and until today his clan called Ina Nuur is part of Marehan clan in Eithopia. On the other hand anyone, who needs proof about Ahmed Guray could get more information in Eithopia, especaily among the Somali normads. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.154.51.128 (talk • contribs) 02:28, May 22, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Though the article isn't big enough to warrant a split right now, I think that we should have two separate articles. One for the Ahmed Gragn, and one for the invasion of Ethiopia by Adal. The two are obviously distinct even if they are so closely related. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:

"A. was of Somali origin, later called Guray, which is deliberately ignored by his Muslim chronicler." (Franz-Cristoph Muth, "Ahmad b. Ibrahim al-Gazi" in Siegbert Herausgegeben von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden:Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003), pp.155.)

It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)

It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:

"Although the exact influence of the `Afar inside the Kingdom of `Adal is still conjectural due to its multiethnic basis..."

Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading the Futuh al-Habasha, I've noticed that there is some evidence in this primary source -- although not conlcusive -- that Ahmad Gragn could have been of the Belaw, a Muslim people who currently live in Eritrea. -- llywrch 04:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think you mean the Belew (modern pronounciation - the vowels would be pronounced Balaw in Ge'ez). The name seems to refer to Arabized Beja groups or Beja-ized Arab groups who ruled in NE Sudan (in Beja areas) and parts of western Eritrea (i.e. Kunama and Nara lands). This is the definition given by the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. However, it also seems to refer to Christianized rulers of northern Ethiopia (Tigray and Eritrea) of Beja stock during the Zagwe dynasty (version supported by Taddesse Tamrat). Their origins seem to be diverse, though, so the rulers may have been members of a group similar to the Tigre (who came about later) of nomadic Tigrinya (-related language) speakers (? some conjecture on my part). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Mostly for entertainment purposes, I thought I'd mention that Samuel Gobat, a European missionary who lived in Northern Ethiopia around 1830, stated that the Imam was a "Mohammedan Galla"! While he offers no support for this statement, I can understand how he came to this wildly erroneous opinion -- but do we need this kind of information added to the article just to engage in borderline original research to refute? -- llywrch 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Fact

zeila the birth place of ahmed gran is in present day somalia and was also inhabited by somalis 500 years ago

afars were part of the kingdom just like the harari's but doesn't make ahmed gran a harari evendo he made harar the capital of Adal

the imam was supported mainly by his own people the somalis

here is an excerpt from the french historian Rene Basset

  • Histoire de la Conquete de L'Abyssinie* (trans. Rene Basset),

http://i2.tinypic.com/t0i0s9.jpg

Rene Basset doesn't address why he calls him Somali, though. Calling someone Somali in passing isn't evidence that it's more likely than being Afar. Harari back then probably didn't exist as an ethnicity, though. Maqrizi notes that Ifat, for instance, spoke Amharic. If you read what I said before, Afars were probably the predominant ethnic group in the kingdom. Either way, being born in Zeila doesn't make him Somali. Zeila was a port city with many ethnicities living in its borders. The current version makes it clear that the common consensus is that he was Somali, though. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 22:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] let's discuss the Added info

I agree there is the possibility that Ahmed Gurey could have been a Afar and i have no problems with that being mentioned. from the added info:

1. He has a nephew Muhammad bin Ali, whose mother was the Imam's aunt; Muhammad was the Sultan of the Somali tribe of Zarba.

if the Mother of a Sultan of a Somali tribe is the sister of Ahmed Gurey's Mother or Father how is this not a Somali connection?

2. The Futuh mentions one Ibrahim bin Ahmad as a ruler of the Adal Sultanate for three months, whose name suggests that he may be the Imam's father. This Ibrahim is described as one of the Belew people and previously having been the ruler of the town of Hubat.[8] The possible connection between the two is strengthened by the fact Hubat is later mentioned as one of the power bases of Imam Ahmad (the other being Za'ka).

^^to claim this part regarding the connection between the Belew people and Ahmed Gurey and then at the same time claim the following

Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection.

which ethnic connection was made in Futuh between Ahmed and Adalites that justifies the isolation of the Somali people?

3. Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, would this embarassing detail have been mentioned?[10]

Pure speculation and personal interpretation of the text, the Futuh also mentioned the amount of destruction Ahmed's army caused and that's not praising someone's legacy, not to forget the many times these Same warrior were praised in Futuh

4. Somali forces contributed much to the Imam’s victories. Shihab ad-Din, the Muslim chronicler of the period, writing between 1540 and 1560, mentions them frequently. (Fatuh al-Habasha, ed. And trs. R. Besset Paris, 1897.)

it looks very POV to me RoboRanks 04:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding; I only now saw your post. I have numbered your points so I can reply to them in one block rather than to each one individually, to keep your text cohesive & readable.
1. The Futuh can be fairly understood to indicate that Muhammad bin Ali's father was Somali; however, Mohammad's mother -- Ahmad Gragn's aunt -- might not be. There is no way to logically prove that his mother was Somali on the basis of his father's ethnicity. People marry outside of their ethnic or kinship group all of the time, & it was likely the case here.
2. I was merely raising the possibility of the Imam being Belew. I readily admit that these are tenuous facts, & I only mention them because I do not know of any discussion of the information the Futuh provides.
As for the statement about the silence of the text about the Imam's relationship to the Somali people -- all I can say is that it is very obvious. There are many scenes where Ahmad Gragn appears with one or more Somalis, & IIRC not once does the Futuh say something like "the Imam spoke to his fellow Somali brethern"; however, at the same time, not once does is there a statement like "although a stranger, the Somali welcomed the Imam".
But I would like to point out one detail in this section: it is an argument from silence, which is the weakest basis of logical reasoning. All we can say is that the author of the Futuh neglects to tell us the Imam's background: whether he was Somali, Afar, European -- or from Mars. There could be any number of reasons why this information was omitted. I thought I had a good quote from one of Said Samatar's books about Imam Ahmad that might explain this silence, but when I went to use it I found that I has misremembered it. What I had hoped Dr. Samatar had written was something along the lines that our ignorance of what his nationality is possibly an irrelevance to both the author of the Futuh as well as Imam Ahmad himself; in their eyes this was a Muslim war, not an ethnic one -- & perhaps the Imam deliberately obscured this information with the goal of uniting his followers by religion, not divide them by the complications of ethnic rivalries. I think this is a respectful way to handle this omission. (Know of a way this could be said without it appearing to be either POV or original research?)
3. The author of the Futuh is fairly harsh about the Somali followers being unreliable during his first invasion of the Ethiopian Highlands. He describes how they pleaded to be released from the jihad so they could go home, how at one point they deserted the Imam (& he had to send a trusted lieutenant to bring them back at sword-point); their behavior in the Battle of Shimbra Kure was only one more black mark. To soften this account, I tried to insert a bit of my POV to explain why they insisted on being allowed to return home when the Imam needed them: they were raiders, unused & unfamiliar to a pitched battle.
BTW, the Futuh provides little information about ethnic backgrounds of the Imam's followers after this point.
4. As I wrote above, Shihab ad-Din does mention the Somalis frequently. Unfortunately, it is not always in a positive light. Seeing how the author is always quite open about his opinions & attitudes of the people in this history, & how he praises the Imam, I can't help but wonder if he would do so if Imam Ahmad was Somali. They are a very proud people, & would be far less than happy to read that their kinsmen fled the field at Shimbra Kure. Then again, if it could be shown that the Imam was Somali, Shihab ad-Din's account there becomes rather interesting -- was the Imam a very critical person? -- & begs for a historian's attention to help us understand.
But the Futuh is not a well-known book; there are few studies about it to my knowledge. The book you cite that passage from was published over 100 years ago. IIRC, you said that you were going to read it so you could respond to these additions; I look forward to seeing if I missed something -- or misunderstood what I read. Maybe together we can figure out how to use this new translation. -- llywrch 23:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Note that Didier Morin, in his Dictionnaire historique afar identifies Ahmed Gragn as a Belew (Arabized Beja from Northern Ethiopia) gpretty strongly based on the Futuh, but I'm not sure of any other analyses of the Futuh for ethnic data. He, citing Lewis (1980) states that there were two Ahmad Gragns/Gurays, the famous one (whose appelation "gragn" is originally Amharic and not Somali according to his linguistic reasoning), and another called Ahmed "Guray" b. Husayn al-Somali (see Ahmad Girri bin Husain in the Futuh, pp.43, 49, 76, 82, chief of Habr Maqdi, identified by Lewis as Habr Magadle and by Pankhurst as Habr Makadur), chief of the Habar Magadle (connected with the Marrehan). Lewis further connects the "left-handed" meaning to the Beja form Ahmed-talhab, which does not have negative connotations as it does for Christian Ethiopians and Muslims in general (compared to pre-Islamic Beja legends where the king of animals, the lion, is referenced as left-handed: talha-b). He further refers to Ahmed Gragn's wife, Bati Del Wambara, who takes refuge in Mazaga (of Daka), a Belew fief, as well as noting that the Imam camped among the Belew in Tigray before pillaging Axum. Dil Wambara(=Wembere, the "a" referring to the first order, not a long "a"), according to him, is not an Amharic name which would be connected to "Dil wember," meaning "throne" or "victory seat," but rather an Amharic attempt to emulate the Afar Dele-wan-badha; the consonant "dh" is in fact usually reprsented as "r," such as in "Hanfare" for Afar "Hanfadhe". It should be noted that the Futuh states that of the Belew that the first Belew who migrated to Adal (Balaw `Abd Allah) in the time of Sa`ad ad-Din married one of his daughters and that every son she bore him was called Ura`i and every daughter Ba`tiya=Bati (p.191). This is in reference to a Balaw from the Mahawara tribe named Ura`i Abu Bakr, so it may just represent one group's tradition, since the Sultan Ibrahim is identified as Balaw, but it may mean that Bati Dil Wembere was a Belew from Northern Ethiopia, given her first name and seemingly Amharic (or Afar?) father's name (or is it just another element of her first name?); this seems to be venturing into the realm of OR, though. I'll provide more information when I have more time. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 00:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen Morin's or Lewis' book, but I did receive a copy of the 4th edition of I.M. Lewis' A Modern History of the Somali today, & have spent a few hours reading it. To my surprise, I found that he had written the following (p. 26 n.5):
According to one legned popular in Ethiopia, Ahmad Gragn was the issue of a Coptic priest and a Muslim harlot. A recent writer has more seriously suggested that the Imam may have belonged to a section of the Beja tribes."
While I only mention the first half of Lewis' passage for entertainment purposes (it only illustrates how hated the Imam was by the Christian Highlanders; as a comparison, if one were to ask the random Iraqi what they thought president George W. Bush's ancestory was, I doubt it would be much different), the second half does prove that the scholarly consensus is not unanimous in favor of Ahmad Gragn being of Somali ancestory. And I will repeat one point I said above: despite the uncertainty of his origins, the Futuh make it clear that at least some Somali can accurately claim to be related to him. -- llywrch 05:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)