Talk:Aharon Leib Shteinman

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus Duja► 10:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The English rendition of his name ("Aharon Leib Steinman") is much more prolific, even if the "Shteinman" spelling is a better reflection of the Israeli pronounciation. Google results show that "Steinman" is by far the more common form of the name, so I propose a move to Aharon Leib Steinman. --DLand^TALK 22:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• • There is no "English rendition" of his name, where did you get that idea from? He is a Haredi rosh yeshiva who deals exclusively with Haredim and they refer to him in the present as "Shtainman" IZAK 10:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Even being a Haredi rosh yeshiva (plz click if u dont know those terms all you uncultured wikipedians!) ...can grant foreign pronounced name an english rendition, even without WP:C, even google thinks so, compare this with [1]]. Abvious move. frummer 16:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• The commonality of an error does not make it correct. You cannot expect an Anglophone to read the name correctly if it is spelt Steinman. (In fact, according to YIVO transcsription rules, it should be Shteynman.) --Redaktor 23:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The "Steinman" spelling is no error. It is, in fact more accurate than "Shteinman" in the strict sense, as the German st and sp are pronounced as /ʃt/ and /ʃp/ respectively (see German orthography). There is no reason for the English version of the Yiddish "שטיינמן" to be rendered as a crude phonetic transliteration. In its English form, it is spelled Steinman. As an analogy, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz's last name is pronounced "Shteinzaltz", whether you speak Hebrew, English, Yiddish or whatever. It would never be spelled that way, though, because that's just not how you spell it in its English form! I hope you can understand and accept this. --DLand^TALK 02:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
    • To apply esoteric "rules" from hypethetical German (of all things) just reveals how out of reality your suggestion really is. IZAK 10:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
      • The rule is neither esoteric nor hypothetical. Simply put, in German "st" is pronounced as "sht". This is how German-speakers speak and write, every single day. And the German language is the only possible point of reference, since Yiddish uses Hebrew letters. Regardless, that wasn't my main point - it should be moved simply because that's how most people spell it, and that reason should be more than sufficient. --DLand^TALK 16:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Yiddish is not German, so German spelling should not be adduced in support. There are conventions for romanization of Yiddish, and none of them supports s for ש. --Redaktor 16:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• I think Shteinman should stay but I don't think it's terribly important crz crztalk 23:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• On the contrary, DLand, Steinman is in error. Rabbi Shteinman is not German, and his name is a Yiddish one. For Yiddish names the appropriate anglicization is one based on Yiddish transcription norms, not one based on assumed Germanization. Rabbi Steinsaltz is entitled to spell his name that way if he chooses. His spelling is not binding on anyone else, and certainly upon someone who does not use a romanized spelling at all. Shteinman is a perfectly proper spelling in English. All the Steinmans pronounce their name "St…", not Sht…) In any event, what do you mean by the "Steinman"rendition being more prolific? I can't find it anywhere. Redaktor 10:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The method generally used to determine what is the most common spelling for any article's title is by Google test. If you compare "Aharon Leib Steinman" and "Aharon Leib Shteinman" on Google, you will see that the "Steinman" version is much more common. Secondly, I don't know where you get that the "appropriate anglicization" of a Yiddish name is an exact transliteration. That is simply not true - how many people do you know named "Goldshtein"? Your distinction between the German and the Yiddish in this context is ludicrous as well - the name itself comes from German. The only way I would accept the "Shteinman" spelling is if R' Steinman himself paskened that way, and truthfully, I doubt he cares either way. --DLand^TALK 16:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I think you are mistaken. In English-speaking countries, the name 'Goldstein' is pronounced gold-steen. In any event it is irrelevant where the name comes from. What is relevant is what the name is now and how it is pronounced. "Steinman' serves only to confuse.--Redaktor 19:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
      • It doesn't matter that it may serve to confuse, because Wikipedia is not concerned with the possibility that people may mispronounce a name. The most appropriate spelling of a name in an article's title is the one that is most commonly used (see WP:NAME). In this case, the most commonly used and recognized spelling in this case is Aharon Leib Steinman. --DLand^TALK 21:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• DLand: I must disagree with you strongly. Rav Shtainman is known as Rav Shtainman in the world of Haredi Judaism and in Israel, Who on Earth calls him "Stainman" with an "S" only? Please see: Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Examples (Bill Clinton not William Jefferson Clinton; Tony Blair not Anthony Charles Lynton Blair; Julius Caesar not Imperator Gaius Iulius Caesar Divus.) Thank you!IZAK 10:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• Suport move, i should have taken this into account in the last move. Whilst like Izak says it is pronounced with the current spelling, its not spelt so. Pronounciations and spelling are not the same thing. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Ukrainian names, this falls into that crack in the system. Plz also edit the rule to make it more global. frummer 13:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• Support move, Steinman is pronounced Steinman per German pronunciation. It is a German word. Yiddish is a German dialect. When transliterating from Yiddish to Latin, the most obvious use is the German alphabet. This case is no exception. The proposal to use "shtein" has absolutely no precedent whatsoever. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 09:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

1 The word Steinman is not in the German dictionary; ergo it is not a German word. 2 We are discussing a name, not a word. 3 Yiddish is a language, not a dialect. (Or are you planning to respell all Dutch names according to German spelling conventions? 4 The 'most obvious use' of a transliteration scheme for Yiddish is German if you are German; this is the English Wikipedia, not the German Wikipedia. 5 The spelling Shteinman is in widespread use. The Steinman spelling was invented by people with an inferiority complex who think German is better than Yiddish. 6 Rabbi Shteinman is not German, has never been to Germany, and has no need for a German name. --Redaktor 10:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.