Talk:Agusta A129 Mangusta

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[edit] T129 specs

The sources are unclear, but the improvements seem to be compared with the original A129, not the A129 International (A129I), esp the engine performance figures. I have a source^[1] which states the A129I has "20% more-powerful LHTEC T800 turboshafts", exactly the same figures given for the T129. As such, I have to believe the T129 uses the same engines as the A129I, and the the performace figures are comparing the T129 to original A129 with the Gem engines, not to the A129I. Assuming the deal goes forward, more information should be forthcoming, but until then, I believe my interpretation of the figures is accurate based on verifiable sources to this point. Thanks. - BillCJ 03:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• AW's web site only lists the RR 1004 and CTS800 engines here. Their brocure seems to list the same thing. If the I version is somewhat new, it's be unlikely they would change the engine type again. -Fnlayson 04:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The RR 1004 is the Gem, and the CTS800 is the civil version of the T800. I've seen both T800 and CTS800 listed as being in the Int'l, SO I assume there isn't much difference between the two designations, other than the usual military/civil changes. TO my knowledge, the A129I was developed in the mid-late 90s, but never sold, though the A129CBT for the Italians featured many of the improvements, except it retained the Gem engines. THe T129 may further improve on the Int'l, but to what extent I have yet to determine. - BillCJ 05:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yep. For now, you have to assume a T129 = A129I. It appears the bulleted items do not come from References 2 or 3. Must be improvements from A129 -> A129I, like you mentioned. -Fnlayson 06:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I would agree that the T129 = A129I and the "T" simply refers to the fact that it will be assembled in Turkey. Bill, I understand your ref says "20% more powerful engines", but keep in mind that the article says hover performance has been increased by 20%. First, those aren't necessarily the same thing...hover performance is based on a number of things, and while engine power increase is one way to achieve it, there are others as well (such as improvements in blade design). Also, keep in mind that you can get power/performance increases out of the same engine by refining various aspects of it (fuel control system, FADEC, etc) or since many turboshaft engines are de-rated, by simply de-rating them less. Heck, on the 412, they increased MGW simply by changing the markings on the ITT gauge and changing the performance charts in the RFM. In many such cases, the performance limitations aren't really the engine, but the drive train downstream of it, and by strengthening its components, including transmissions, you can utilize more of the power available from the engines.
  • I've made a minor clarification in the lead paragraph of the article, as well, where it says that the A129 was the first attack helicopter designed and built in Europe. Seems that whoever wrote that forgot that Moscow is in Europe, too, and they've produced some rather effective attack helicopters! Akradecki 14:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• • • Alan, thanks for the clarifications, and for the advice. We don't know yet the exact model numer of the T129's engine, and that will tell us alot. I understand what you mean about drivetrian improvements tho, so we will have to see what eles comes out before we really know more. (Jeff, thanks too!) - BillCJ 16:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] T129 3-view

We're planning on converting the A139 Int'l specs to the T129 when they are released. Since the T129 is the only version of the A129I that has been sold, it seems apporpriate to list the T129 3-view there, rather than in the text. The A129I 3-view with printed text does not look professional, and it looks like it's from a presumably-copyrighted book/magazine, I am going to remove it. I won't move the T129 preveiw back to the specs at this time, as it seems to be too contentious. - BillCJ 23:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)