User talk:Agentmoose

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[edit] Your user page

How are you a member of a church, yet claim to be an athiest? How are you a (claimed) member of the freemasons, yet also claim to be an athiest? One of the requirements of freemasonry is the belief in deity. So please - if you are a member and an athiest, point me to your blue lodge, in order to correct things. by the square Rarelibra 05:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications

I have been a member of a church my whole life. I have also always been an atheist. I only realized this recently. Unfortunately, I had already joined the Freemasons, and my grandfather still pays my dues. I take him to lodge occasionally because he cannot drive. I perform all the music and do all the printing for the church, and they pay me, so I have stayed for now.Agentmoose 19:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You cannot be a member of the masons if you do not believe in deity. You know this. It was part of the oath you took. Still a part of the principles you are supposed to follow. Rarelibra 01:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I know it. Principles are not supposed to be followed, they are chosen. Agentmoose 02:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

How you are so much in need of more light. Rarelibra 02:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

As an atheist, or more specifically a Secular Humanist, I have decided what is right/wrong by how it helps or hurts those around me. I do not need to create a "God" to look over my shoulder to make sure I am following some arcane rules. I build myself up with the noble principles I see in others and then I make them my own, instead of grafting principles from a book into my life because I am told to. If you think that "light" will fix me, then I much prefer the darkness, where at least I can build my own light and shine for others. Agentmoose 03:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue about faith with you, because those are rooted beliefs that we all choose on our own. However, I will say that being part of an organization that has requirements that are not lived up to is superficial and hypocritical at best. It's like being a dirty cop, dirty politician, etc. All insight is lost upon creating one's own light. The intention of having a light to shine for you is, indeed, assistance from a history of others who have walked the path and provide illumination for others. So there is nothing wrong with using such light in your life. When walking the path without light, you risk a greater loss in the possibility to "stray from the path" of light and succumb to one's own passions, which was never the intent of the oath you took. Should you recall, you stated you would "subdue" your passions and "improve" yourself. All I am saying is that you cannot advertise while mocking the very thing you advertise for, correct? All meaning is lost in this very thing. Rarelibra 14:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think some may be confused on what is required to be a mason. Never has any Masonic code said you must believe in a deity, but rather a "higher power" or a "supreme being". For that reason, there can also be masons who have pagan or other earthly-spiritual beliefs. I would even go as far a stretch as to say humanism (believing in the dignity and worth of every being) and it's inherent properties of rationalism, morality, and ethics are higher powers that a person can grow by. To believe in a higher power is to believe in something greater than yourself, and it is not unheard of for a humanist mason to believe that the "supreme being" is humankind and it's potential.

Considering the fact that many Masons are famously attributed free thinkers (with a mutual dislike between masonry and the roman catholic church), it's ironic to think how freemasonry can and has been construed; that what was once a liberal way of thinking may be seen to have evolved into another way to limit it's members by beliefs.

"The Grand Orient de France removed the term of the Great Architect of the Universe at their convention in 1877, following the request of the Protestant clergyman Fréderic Desmons who stated that Freemasonry is based on unconditional freedom of conscience and human solidarity; nobody is excluded because of its belief."

The European Continental branch of freemasonry is a tad bit more liberal and does not require you to believe in a higher power at all. There are many atheists and agnostics among the branch.

I can't express my disappointment enough, Rarelibra, for you (a Mason) to be judging your brother because his beliefs are not your own; it is against masonic policy to discuss religion, so if you have a problem, keep it to yourself. To some it may seem irregular, but if you can live with yourself without regrets as to being humanist and masonic, then there should be no problem. If you can live whole heartedly with whatever beliefs or disbeliefs or nature of questioning you have, and you can live by the humanistic higher purpose of "doing good and living well in the here and now, and leaving the world better for those who come after", you definitely believe in enough for a fellow mason to see you as a brother.

However, it shouldn't matter, you are a Mason no matter what someone else thinks, including the disgruntled. marosell 03:39, 15 March 2007 (EST)

I don't care if you are disappointed or not, marosell. The masonic code is to believe in Deity, period. I don't care how it's been altered. The fundamental belief is in Deity. I will retain such judgment as I care enough to protect the very fabric of what freemasonry stands for. You can talk about free thinkers (of what I am), and liberalism (of what I believe in), but the core is tied to belief in Deity. Atheism is the belief that deity does not exist, hence, goes against the very beliefs that were sworn upon an oath. I am disappointed in YOU, marosell, in throwing around justification as "humanism" and talking about a "humanistic higher purpose" in some attempt to throw out deity in the form of an athiest "higher calling". Don't even try to tell me to keep it to myself - I am protecting that which I swore upon. Go back and read your oath, brother. Rarelibra 15:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

My user talk page will not become your place to complain, Rarelibra. I am what I choose to be. I have the right to free speech, and that is what I am using to declare my opinions and beliefs. The code has been altered, and this alteration was what I came in under. If you have a problem with it, then you will need to keep it to yourself. Freethinker you are not.

That's the best part - Freethinker I am, and opinion I will deliver. Deal with it. Rarelibra 19:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freemasonry

Hey Agentmoose, maybe you should reveal some Freemasonic secrets just to piss rarelibra off. Phillipshead 16:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)