Talk:African National Congress

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Peer review This article was externally reviewed (November 7, 2005) by Mail & Guardian. It was rated 7/10
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[edit] Mail & Guardian review

I can only find one clear factual error: the ANC did not fight the 1994 provincial elections in coalition with the IFP [Inkatha Freedom Party].

For the rest, there is a certain selectivity in the choice of facts -- why a grant to the ANC by the Saudis merits special mention is unclear -- and some selectivity: Anton Lembede and AP Mda, the two Africanists who formed the ANC Youth League, are ignored and it is also unclear why John Dube should be listed as the founder of the ANC when Pixley Seme and Sol Plaatje were at least as significant.

Choices of significant figures are also highly subjective and I would wonder why Robert Sobukwe is mentioned as a key ANC figure rather than as founder of the PAC [Pan Africanist Congress] or why Sydney Mufamadi is listed as a key figure after 1994 when most analysts would choose many other ANC politicians ahead of him.

That said, the entry was surprisingly accurate (perhaps I have low expectations): one clear factual error only is less than I would have expected.

-- Political analyst Steven Friedman, Centre for Policy Studies, Johannesburg, quoted in Mail & Guardian online: Can you trust Wikipedia?, Elvira van Noort, Johannesburg, South Africa, 07 November 2005 09:13.

I'd fix the article myself, but I don't understand the context for his criticism well enough to be sure I'd edit correctly. <>< tbc 08:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
It would be constructive if the experts quoted in the article actually edit the entries they criticize. 168.209.98.35 10:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
M&G's argument makes more sense - unlikely that they joined forces to fight this. It's very difficult to use the internet to prove something did not happen and I could not find anything meaningful using Google. Let's phone mr. Friedman and ask him what his sources are. - syndicate t 22:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
More to the point: given that there is no citation for our current statement, and it has been challenged by a presumably knowledgable source, shouldn't we cut it from the article to the talk page while we are discussing? -- Jmabel | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The M&G expert was correct. There was no electoral alliance between the ANC and IFP in 1994. The statement has already been changed by me, and it now says that the alliances were entered into AFTER the elections, but I left the disputed tag in. If someone confirms the correctness of the paragraph as it now stands, then the disputed tag can be removed.168.209.98.35 10:45, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Removed {{dubious}} tag. See BBC News article describing Buthelezi joining the cabinet in the Government of National Unity in 1994 until 2004. Zaian 23:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

How many members does the ANC claim? or is there some nonpartisan group that keeps numbers? I'm interested to know how many members all the South African political parties have. User:Pimpalicious

A friend of mine, a member of the Executive Committee of our district's ANC branch, guessed 4 million. I am searching for a more accurate figure. --Taejo 5 July 2005 11:26 (UTC)

Wasn't Mandela a key member after 94 as well as before? --Andy-106 15:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I edited the wording slightly. The ANC has been in power since 1994 at the national level, but not alone (eg, IFP has held ministerial posts), and not in every province for all this time. Peter, 2006-06-14.

The date and moment that white and other racial groups were allowed to join the ANC has been omitted. Surely that would add to the understanding of racial unity in SA? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.23.232.117 (talk • contribs) 14 February 2007.

[edit] Great work guys (and girls)!

See http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=256607&area=/insight/insight__national/ - Ta bu shi da yu 03:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] history-need a serious clean up.

Although the current ANC is properly covered, the history section needs to be cleaned up and enlarged. There is no mentioning of the historically-important happenings, like the Kliptown Convention, the Sharpeville massacre, the Soweto uprising or the democratic front in the eighties. It also excludes Nobel laurate Albert Lutuli, who was ANC's president and who gained international recognition for both the struggle and the party. Oliver Tambo's exile set up in Maputo and later in Zambia, where also Thabo Mbeki had his growth. Could a list be set up of important ANC leaders? Many of them are mentioned on the page, or they should be mentioned. (Govan Mbeki, Chris Hani, Joe Slovo, Bram Fischer, etc.)

(These suggestions are written by a Norwegian with only a minimal knowledge of South African politics, but I see a lot is missing, to an extent it seems misguiding. I only read Mandela's biography, or read any historical document about anc)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.202.111.237 (talk • contribs) 13 Dec 2005.

[edit] Category: Single-party system parties

I saw this article linked from the category Single-party system parties (see at the bottom of the article). From my limited knowledge as an European South Africa is not a single party system in the sense that the term in normally used in. Tschild 19:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Is not and never has been. - Jmabel | Talk 07:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Terrorism"

"…operations commonly described as terrorism" is at least perilously close to the line on what Wikipedia:Words to avoid has to say about the use of the word "terrorism". Can someone who is more actively working on this article than I work out a better way to handle this? No objection at all to citing the many entities (including the U.S. government) who referred to these actions as "terrorism", just objecting to having it in Wikipedia's narrative voice. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

In the article on Terrorism a description is given of it as being 'violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals'. How does the ANC not fit this description? It is obvious that it was a terrorist organization. Custodiet ipsos custodes talk 05:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Im just wondering, his wikipedia article states: "which primarily involved targeting and sabotaging the government's resources, with a wish to minimise the bloodshed of civilians."

Most attacks by the ANC was aimed againsta unarmed people. (Churches Shools Shopping centres got blown up far more regularly than goverment establishments. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.209.38.175 (talk • contribs) 13 June 2006.


Every known resistance force in the world has been called terrorists.. Until they won. But it's sad that there actually exist people, who still linger to the old apartheid propaganda that ANC were terrorists. Either you supported the ANC cause or the Apartheid system. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.66.186.229 (talk • contribs) 17 August 2006.

Either you supported the ANC cause or the apartheid system? I'm afraid you are ill informed. Many organisations (IFP, PFP, to name two) that were opposed to apartheid were not pro ANC. Hnjvr 06:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Magoo bombing and St James Church massacre, amongst others, were cleary acts of terrorism by any definition of the word. They were aimed at civilian targets and not against government or military institutions. Currently Robert McBride who was responsible for civilian deaths by planting the Magoo's bomb, is a metropolitan police chief, an appointment that he received on the strength of his ANC ties, after he was released from jail, again thanks to an ANC pardon. In view of these facts, calling the ANC a terrorist organisation is not apartheid propaganda. In my opinion it would widely be regarded as fact. : Hnjvr 17:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, the issue here is Wikipedia:Words to avoid. It's fine to say "described as terrorism by [fill in the blank]", but it is not a word we should use in Wikipedia's "own voice". - Jmabel | Talk 06:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The ANC had nothing to do with the St James Church attack - this was claimed by APLA. McBride was released by De Klerk, not by an "ANC pardon". Ozinsky 19:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

According to this article the ANC may still be designated as a terrorist organization by the united states. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Social Democratic

Is ANC social democratic? Could this be qualified? What I have read of their policies and actions is not exactly social democrat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.41.142.242 (talk • contribs).

[edit] The role of Soviet funding

It says: "The ANC received most of its financial and tactical support from the USSR, which orchestrated military involvement with surrogate Cuban forces through Angola. In 1985 a group of businessmen, led by Dr. Theuns Eloff, met with the ANC in Lusaka and again in Dakar in 1987 but they returned empty-handed with the ANC immovable in their demand that there be a total capitulation of the White Regime. After the fall of the USSR, however, and the resultant demise of the Cuban exercise, which also brought an end to the ANC's funding, a more conciliatory tone from the ANC resulted in peace talks in the early 1990s, which ultimately resulted in a negotiated constitution, which has since been upheld by the courts."

This section sounds a bit off to me, but someone more knowledgeable would have to edit it. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidweman (talk • contribs) 22 March 2007.

  • I agree with this comment. The fall of the USSR also changed the attitude of some Western governments that had previously supported the apartheid regime in South Africa as an ally against communism. As a result, the South African government found itself under greatly increased pressure to reach a political settlement with ANC. I shall add a sentence to this effect but it may need further editing who has access to appropriate sources. Kahuzi 17:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Edited. Zaian (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mandela: The Authorised Biography

I am trying to expand this article, mainly focusing on the differences between this book and other accounts (books and otherwise) of South Africa throughout this period. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated on the talk page.BillMasen 13:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

"Other attacks on civilians included the systematic murder of hundreds of people in Black townships who refused to take part in consumer boycotts or strikes and who were regarded as sell-outs. The preferred method of murder was to put a burning tyre around the neck of the unfortunate victim". Source it. --Jammoe 03:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

   References added


[edit] POV problem

The "Violent political resistance" section seems to contain a number of unsourced and POV claims, which have the effect of tilting the article significantly against the ANC.

Some examples:

- failure to mention the role of the Sharpeville massacre in pushing the ANC towards violent resistance.

- Factually incorrect claim that Mandela was arrested for terrorism in 1962. He was arrested for leading a strike and leaving the country without a passport, as Wikipedia correctly notes elsewhere. His later, more famous, conviction was for treason and not terrorism.

- Statement that the ANC's targetting of civilians led to it being classified as a terrorist organisation by the South African government. Potentially misleading given that the ANC was banned well before it instigated violent resistance.

- Claim that the ANC was classified as a terrorist organisation by the UK and USA. Is this correct? The source referenced does not show this.

- Reference to necklacing without noting the controversy over whether this was officially sanctioned by the ANC

- The claim that the only barrier to the un-banning of the ANC and subsequent democratic elections was the ANC's insistence on "total capitulation", and that the ANC's position changed when the fall of the USSR ended its funding "in the early 1990s". This is so wrong it's hard to know where to start. A rather more balanced and nuanced treatment is elsewhere in Wikipedia.

- Other unsourced claims (e.g. relating to Theuns Eloff, funding from USSR)

- At least one inaccuracy in the ANC's favour - it has been established beyond doubt that the ANC detained and tortured without trial at some of its camps in Angloa (see http://www.info.gov.za/speeches/2000/000721410p1001.htm).

I'm tempted to rewrite most of this from scratch. Any other suggestions? LeContexte 16:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it does need to be rewritten (though I am rather to busy to help on my own at the moment). Here is a link that does show that the ANC was a "terrorist" organization, with further references. [1] The section definately needs to be reworked though, and perhaps the context (that of asymmetrical warfare) should be made more clear. --KobaVanDerLubbe 04:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
That is of course just one organisation's view. The claim in the article is that the US and UK designated the ANC as a terrorist organisation - I've no idea whether this is correct, but certainly there are no sources in the article which show this to be the case. LeContexte 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Good point. I did find another article though stating that the US atleast had the ANC on a list of terrorist organizations, and that this played a role in justifying dealings with the Apartheid government. [2]--KobaVanDerLubbe 02:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I have reorganised this section to improve the flow and also removed some of the more obvious POV sentences. I think this has addressed most of the points above. Zaian (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Key personalities witin the ANC

There are 6 key personalities within the ANC, because their NEC(National Executive Council) has 6 leaders. They are reffered to as the Top6. Deputy Secretary - Thandi Modise. Secretary General - Gwede Mantashe. National Chairperson - Baleke Mbete. President - Jacob Zuma. Deputy President - Kgalema Motlanthe. Treasurer - Matthews Phosa. This needs to be fixed. --143.160.124.40 (talk) 19:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Foundation of ANC youth league

Anton Lembede wasn't 'the founder' of the ANC youth league, he was one of the founders with Mandela and others. See the youth league site for details. Feel free to add Lembede to the list if you want, but without removing the others. Greenman (talk) 09:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)